That Boat Don't Float!!

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ZephyrWiccan

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This has been posted elsewhere, but I thought it deserved some discussion here on these forums.

In 1909 the schooner Wyoming was launched from the Percy & Small shipyard in Bath, Maine. She was state-of-the art in wooden hulled shipbuilding. She was a six masted schooner and, at 329 ft., the longest ship with an all wood keel and hull ever built. She was the last of nine wooden hulled, six-masted schooners built between 1900 and 1909, and one of seven built by Percy & Small. All were 300 ft. or more in length. They were all state-of-the art.

The Wyoming had 90 steel cross-braces. Even while she was yet on the drawing boards the marine engineers who designed and built her knew from experience with shorter ships that the length of the Wyoming would exceed the structural limits of wood. For this reason they attempted to defeat, or at least support, the laws of physics and the principles of marine engineering with steel.

It was to no avail. Not even the steel bracing could prevent the flexing and twisting that resulted in the separation of the hull planking. The Wyoming required constant pumping, as did her sister ships. The Wyoming leaked from the day she hit the water until the day, 14 years later, when she foundered and broke up off of Monomoy Island while riding out a storm at anchor.

It is said that she could be seen to snake (movement of the bow and stern from side to side in relation to mid ship) and hog (movement of the bow and stern up and down in relation to mid ship) while underway. The action of the waves, in even calm seas, caused the planking to be sprung beyond the capabilities of any caulking that could be devised. The Wyoming and her sisters were used, for the most part, for short, close-in coastal hauls, generally in sight of land. At the first sign if inclement weather, they could run for port. The Wyoming served for several years as a coal hauler, as did several of her sisters.

I have always had a great love for windjammers. I have some very expensive books that deal with the minutia of their construction and for years my hobby was to build full rigged wooden models. I spent hours climbing over the decks of the U.S.S. Constitution in Charleston Navy Yard, admiring her construction. The Wyoming must have been a beautiful vessel. But she was a beautiful anachronism. At about 300 ft. the structural capabilities of wood were exceeded beyond the abilities of engineering and design to remedy

Few other ships of this size were built of wood. One exception was the four-masted medium clipper barque, Great Republic built in 1853. She is sometimes reported as the longest wooden ship ever build with a length of 334 feet, but more usually it is claimed that she was 325 feet.

The Great Republic also had 90 steel cross braces, 4 inches wide, 1 inch thick, and 36 feet long. Nevertheless, she sprung her hull in a storm off of Bermuda. She was abandoned when the water in the hold reached 15 feet.

And yet, creationists want me to believe that a 450 ft. (minimum)* vessel of ALL wood construction (no steel bracings, etc. like in the Wyoming) was able to withstand a storm of 40 days and then remain at sea for almost a year, manned by only eight people, without the efficient pumps of the turn of the century, caulked with nothing more than "pitch inside and out".

Not to mention the overwhelming necessity of the limited crew to feed and water thousands of animals and to muck out thousands of pens (and then carry the result of the mucking up two decks in order to throw it overboard). When was there time for pumping (24 hours a day if the above is any indication) and the constant re-caulking in a futile attempt to stem the flow.


Experience with real wooden ships sailing in real oceans indicates that Noah's ark would not have survived many days, if any days, of the 40 day storm.


Noah's ark - that that boat don't float.



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*And I got that 450 minimum figure from numerous sources, including a number of different creationist ones. It was said to be 300 cubits, and depending on which cubit you use, the length ranges from 450 feet to over 500 feet.
 
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ZephyrWiccan

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My expected response to this is that the shipbuilders at Percy & Small were not woking under the guidance of God, while Noah had that great font of knowledge to guide him in his engineering feat.
Quite likely. Unfortunately for those who might claim that, there are physical properties of wood that cannot be overcome by any amount of engineering. Perhaps, just perhaps, you could make a ship that floats okay, but to do so, ythe entire innards would have to be made of support structure, with no room whatsoever for animals.
 
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DaveISBG

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And yet, creationists want me to believe that a 450 ft. (minimum)* vessel of ALL wood construction (no steel bracings, etc. like in the Wyoming) was able to withstand a storm of 40 days and then remain at sea for almost a year, manned by only eight people, without the efficient pumps of the turn of the century, caulked with nothing more than "pitch inside and out".





[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]PBS’s Nova [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]reports Six centuries ago, a mighty armada of Chinese ships crossed the China Sea. The fleet consisted of giant nine-masted junks, escorted by dozens of supply ships, water tankers, transports for cavalry horses, and patrol boats. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The largest of the junks were said to be over 400[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]feet long and 150 feet wide. These dimensions would signal the biggest wooden ships ever built. Only the mightiest wooden warships of the Victorian age approached these lengths, and several of these vessels suffered from structural problems that required extensive internal iron supports to hold the hull together. No such structures are reported in the Chinese sources.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In1962 the[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]rudderpost of a treasure ship was excavated in the ruins of one of the Ming boatyards in Nanjing. This timber was no less than 36 feet long. Reverse engineering using the proportions typical of a traditional junk indicated a hull length of around 500 feet. [/FONT]
 
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ZephyrWiccan

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And yet, creationists want me to believe that a 450 ft. (minimum)* vessel of ALL wood construction (no steel bracings, etc. like in the Wyoming) was able to withstand a storm of 40 days and then remain at sea for almost a year, manned by only eight people, without the efficient pumps of the turn of the century, caulked with nothing more than "pitch inside and out".





[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]PBS’s Nova [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]reports Six centuries ago, a mighty armada of Chinese ships crossed the China Sea. The fleet consisted of giant nine-masted junks, escorted by dozens of supply ships, water tankers, transports for cavalry horses, and patrol boats. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The largest of the junks were said to be over 400[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]feet long and 150 feet wide. These dimensions would signal the biggest wooden ships ever built. Only the mightiest wooden warships of the Victorian age approached these lengths, and several of these vessels suffered from structural problems that required extensive internal iron supports to hold the hull together. No such structures are reported in the Chinese sources.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In1962 the[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]rudderpost of a treasure ship was excavated in the ruins of one of the Ming boatyards in Nanjing. This timber was no less than 36 feet long. Reverse engineering using the proportions typical of a traditional junk indicated a hull length of around 500 feet. [/FONT]
Junks - the large ones - were made with numerous watertight hulls/compartments, and were not open infrastructure - i.e., no storage for living beings inside. There is also no record of any of the large ones going anywhere but on rivers (i.e. the Yangtze - for diplomatic matters). There is also a lot of debate on how long the ships actually were, with most placing them between 300 and 405 feet in length.
 
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ZephyrWiccan

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Junks - the large ones - were made with numerous watertight hulls/compartments, and were not open infrastructure - i.e., no storage for living beings inside. There is also no record of any of the large ones going anywhere but on rivers (i.e. the Yangtze - for diplomatic matters). There is also a lot of debate on how long the ships actually were, with most placing them between 300 and 405 feet in length.
Here's some more info on Chinese Junks and their hulls and compartments: Google: "Chinese Junks Britannica Online Encyclopedia", and click the nested link under the first link.
 
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kharisym

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The descriptions I've found of Chinese junk ships state that the lower compartments were used for cabins, etc.

According to Ibn Battuta, who visited China in 1347:
... We stopped in the port of Calicut, in which there were at the time thirteen Chinese vessels, and disembarked. On the China Sea traveling is done in Chinese ships only, so we shall describe their arrangements. The Chinese vessels are of three kinds; large ships called chunks
(junks), middle sized ones called zaws (dhows) and the small ones kakams. The large ships have anything from twelve down to three sails, which are made of bamboo rods plaited into mats. They are never lowered, but turned according to the direction of the wind; at anchor they are left floating in the wind.

A ship carries a complement of a thousand men, six hundred of whom are sailors and four hundred men-at-arms, including archers, men with shields and crossbows, who throw naphtha. Three smaller ones, the "half", the "third" and the "quarter", accompany each large vessel. These vessels are built in the towns of Zaytun
(a.k.a Zaitun; today's Quanzhou; 刺桐) and Sin-Kalan. The vessel has four decks and contains rooms, cabins, and saloons for merchants; a cabin has chambers and a lavatory, and can be locked by its occupants.This is the manner after which they are made; two (parallel) walls of very thick wooden (planking) are raised and across the space between them are placed very thick planks (the bulkheads) secured longitudinally and transversely by means of large nails, each three ells in length. When these walls have thus been built the lower deck is fitted in and the ship is launched before the upper works are finished.


The largest junks ever built were probably those of Admiral Zheng He, for his expeditions in the Indian Ocean. According to Chinese sources, the fleet comprised 30,000 men and over 300 ships at its height.[citation needed]
Image File history File links Circle-question-red. ... Image File history File links Unbalanced_scales. ... Early 17th century Chinese woodblock print, thought to represent Zheng Hes ships. ... Early 17th century Chinese woodblock print, thought to represent Zheng Hes ships. ... (16th century - 17th century - 18th century - more centuries) As a means of recording the passage of time, the 17th century was that century which lasted from 1601-1700. ... A woodcut is a method of printing in which an image is carved into the surface of a piece of wood, with the printing parts remaining level with the surface while the non-printing parts are removed, typically with chisels. ... Zheng He[1] (1371–1433), was a Chinese mariner, explorer, diplomat and fleet admiral, who made the voyages collectively referred to as the travels of Eunuch Sanbao to the Western Ocean or Zheng He to the Western Ocean, from 1405 to 1433. ...

The 1405 expedition consisted of 27,000 men and 317 ships, composed of: Events May 29 - Ralph Neville, Earl of Westmoreland, meets Archbishop Richard Scrope of York and Earl of Norfolk Thomas Mowbray in Shipton Moor, tricks them to send their rebellious army home and then imprisons them June 8 - Archbishop Richard Scrope of York and Thomas Mowbray, Earl of Norfolk, executed in...

  • "Treasure ships", used by the commander of the fleet and his deputies (Nine-masted junks, about 400 feet long and 160 feet wide).
  • "Horse ships", carrying tribute goods and repair material for the fleet (Eight-masted junks, about 339 feet long and 138 feet wide)
  • "Supply ships", containing food-staple for the crew (Seven-masted junks, about 257 feet long and 115 feet wide).
  • "Troop transports" (Six-masted junks, about 220 feet long and 83 feet wide).
  • "Fuchuan warships" (Five-masted junks, about 165 feet long).
  • "Patrol boats" (Eight-oared, about 120 feet long).
  • "Water tankers", with 1 month supply of fresh water and sustainability
source: StateMaster - Encyclopedia: Junk (ship)

Regardless of whether the lower compartments were sealed or not, the fact that 300+ foot long ships could be constructed that were capable of sustained floating using 15th century technology shows that such ships were capable of being produced before the advent of electrical pumps.
 
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Haha you guys crack me up. One minute the bible is totally unreliable and shouldn't be listened to and now you're believing whats written about some boat?

Maybe the writers primitive mind and society prevented him from having an ancient word for "submarine"?

Not sure, just thought I'd throw it there and see what you can find out...
 
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Catherineanne

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Noah's ark - that that boat don't float.

Also coming up: Methusalah's Birth Certificate Found in Hawaii; Shock Result.

Thor the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]; How He Killed the King of Giantland While Dressed as a Woman.

Troy: the Inside Story of that Wooden Horse.

But first; Mythology, What it Is and What it is Not.
 
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Catherineanne

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The creation, the Ark, the flood, the Tower of Babel and all of the other weird and wonderful happenings in the bible are figments of peoples imaginations, to take them literally is not a very smart thing to do.
(that is the nicest way I can put it)

I am very sorry to hear that. :)

There is a lot more to be said of mythology than that it is a figment of people's imaginations. Mythology carries the collective story of a people; who they are, where they came from and where they are going, and every single people on earth has its own mythology, including the United States.

As such is it 100% true, in every single word, even though its truth is not the kind we are used to today. We have become so cynical, so desperate for proof of everything, even before we know what proof really is, that we have thrown out all those babies with all that bathwater. In forgetting how to understand and how to believe mythology, we have also forgotten who we are.

Having forgotten, we then call mythology 'a figment of the imagination.' Which says nothing about these beautiful, complex, rich stories of our beginnings, but rather reveals the shallowness of our own minds.
 
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Catherineanne

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Haha you guys crack me up. One minute the bible is totally unreliable and shouldn't be listened to and now you're believing whats written about some boat?

Maybe the writers primitive mind and society prevented him from having an ancient word for "submarine"?

Not sure, just thought I'd throw it there and see what you can find out...

You are correct. When Jonah travelled to Ninevah, he actually went by submarine. The ancient term for this vessel was inaccurately translated as Whale.

:wave:
 
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dingdong

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You are correct. When Jonah travelled to Ninevah, he actually went by submarine. The ancient term for this vessel was inaccurately translated as Whale.
I'm with you all of the way, do whatever it takes, just maintain the faith.
 
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kharisym

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Haha you guys crack me up. One minute the bible is totally unreliable and shouldn't be listened to and now you're believing whats written about some boat?

Maybe the writers primitive mind and society prevented him from having an ancient word for "submarine"?

Not sure, just thought I'd throw it there and see what you can find out...

I'm sorry, when did I ever claim to accept any evidence thrown out there for my position? If I see something I consider to be untruthful, whether it be for or against my position, I will speak out against it.

You see, atheism ideally is built upon critical thinking, and in critical thinking, you don't blindly accept a piece of proof just because it purports to support your position, you kinda critically assess the proof first. I critically assessed the premise 'wooden structures over 300ft cannot be water-tight', and found it lacking. I only wish the creationists and fundamentalists would do the same to their own proof.
 
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AV1611VET

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And yet, creationists want me to believe that a 450 ft. (minimum)* vessel of ALL wood construction (no steel bracings, etc. like in the Wyoming) was able to withstand a storm of 40 days and then remain at sea for almost a year, manned by only eight people, without the efficient pumps of the turn of the century, caulked with nothing more than "pitch inside and out".

The Ark could have been made out of balsa wood and still accomplished its mission, if God so ordained.

Remember the story of David and Goliath?
 
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dingdong

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I am very sorry to hear that. :)

There is a lot more to be said of mythology than that it is a figment of people's imaginations. Mythology carries the collective story of a people; who they are, where they came from and where they are going, and every single people on earth has its own mythology, including the United States.
You mean the indiginous peoples mythology? the modern US has only religious mythology.
What did people hundreds of years ago do? they spent most of their time thinking about food and working out ways to get it or preserve it, they worked very very hard and got very little in return, telling stories and dreaming were the only ways to get away from the drudgery of day to day living, stories were handed down and were embellished with every telling.
As such is it 100% true, in every single word, even though its truth is not the kind we are used to today.
How many kinds of truth are there? don't forget the truth for the people then included magic and wizardry.
We have become so cynical, so desperate for proof of everything, even before we know what proof really is, that we have thrown out all those babies with all that bathwater. In forgetting how to understand and how to believe mythology, we have also forgotten who we are.
Unless you're very selective of the myths you believe (I assume you only believe the Christian myths) you could end up believing thousands from every country in the world.
Having forgotten, we then call mythology 'a figment of the imagination.' Which says nothing about these beautiful, complex, rich stories of our beginnings, but rather reveals the shallowness of our own minds.
So you want them to be true in order to give your life a richness it would not normally have had and to stop you being shallow, how about them being true or not? or is that not important?
Then again just because we believe something is true does not make it true, does it?
 
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