Testing Spirits

[HARK!]

Hello again Hark!, one last question, what is the "perfect" Torah? Are you referring to the written Torah as "perfect", while the "imperfect" one is the oral Torah perhaps Thanks again

I was quoting David. I don't believe that the oral Torah had been manufactured at that time.

Psalm 19:7
The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

When a spirit comes, and tells me that it's OK to ignore YHWH's perfect Torah; how do I test that spirit?

Test through the Holy Spirit.
Be blessed and stay healthy!

 

[St_Worm2]

Context. This passage speaks of eating bread with unwashed hands.

CompareCLV) 1Co 6:9
Or are you not aware that the unjust shall not be enjoying the allotment of God's kingdom? Be not deceived. Neither paramours, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor catamites, nor sodomites,

(CLV) 1Co 6:10
nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards; not revilers, not extortioners shall be enjoying the allotment of God's kingdom.

Context? Mark 7 opens with the Lord talking to the Pharisees and scribes about their oral traditions, which certainly included the extensive washings of hands, pots, cups, etc., and how some of their traditions are worse than useless, because they often invalidate the word of God .

The Lord then calls another group to come and listen to Him, the people of Israel, and He continues his conversation with them, which he ends by saying this, "~whatever~ enters a man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods". This statement is hardly about hand washings.

I left you passages from St. Luke (Acts) and St. Paul (Romans) as well. Both passages make it clear that ALL foods are now considered to be pure/clean, because the Lord God has made them so.

Again, there is no ambiguity whatsoever in these didactic statements (from either the Lord Jesus, St. Peter and/or St. Paul). That said, there is nothing wrong with keeping kosher if you'd prefer to do so (in and of itself anyway). If you don't mind me asking, do you keep Torah? And if you do (and if you don't mind me asking), why do you do so/what is your principle purpose in doing so?

Thanks again!

--David
p.s. - you posited 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 for comparison, but I'm not sure why you did (since none of the sins listed there concern what we eat) Perhaps you could elaborate a bit?

 

[DamianWarS]

It shows us OT saints like Moses and Elijah standing "with Christ in glory" in Matthew 17 - before the cross even happens

I'm sorry I don't understand the point you're making

 

[St_Worm2]

I was quoting David.

I don't believe that the oral Torah had been manufactured at that time.

Psalm 19:7
The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Ahh, thanks

I was taught that the oral Torah was delivered to Moses by God at the same time the written Torah was (according to the traditions of the elders), or were you referring to the (written) Talmud above.

Thanks!

--David

 

[HARK!]

Test through the Holy Spirit.

That's the whole point. How do you test the ruach, to see if it is kadosh?

 

[HARK!]

The Lord then calls another group to come and listen to Him, the people of Israel, and He continues his conversation with them, which he ends by saying this, "~whatever~ enters a man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods". This statement is hardly about hand washings.

It is about hand washing and/or oral law. That is the context; and YHWH defined food in Leviticus. Yahshua was obedient to Leviticus; so he used YHWH's definition of food, not the Pagan definition.

 

[HARK!]

I left you passages from St. Luke (Acts) and St. Paul (Romans) as well. Both passages make it clear that ALL foods are now considered to be pure/clean, because the Lord God has made them so.

I clarified the context of those passages too. Maybe you missed my posts.

 

[DamianWarS]

Where is the strawman argument, unless you are making one?

How do you feel this is in conflict with my intent?

The strawman is it's a question that only has one answer and it's set up this way by design. It tries to force opposing positions in some sort of torah filter.

The conflict is that torah has a much wider definition than what Moses penned and God has more to say about abstaining from food (as an example) than what we read in the first 5 books of the Bible.

 

[HARK!]

If you don't mind me asking, do you keep Torah? And if you do (and if you don't mind me asking), why do you do so/what is your principle purpose in doing so?

I pray regularly for YHWH to give me the strength to do his will. It is outlined in the Torah. I do so because I love him.

(CLV) 1Jn 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we may be keeping His precepts. And His precepts are not heavy,

Fear of Losing Salvation

 

[HARK!]

The conflict is that torah has a much wider definition than what Moses penned and God has more to say about abstaining from food (as an example) than what we read in the first 5 books of the Bible.

For example...

 

[HARK!]

Ahh, thanks

I was taught that the oral Torah was delivered to Moses by God at the same time the written Torah was (according to the traditions of the elders), or were you referring to the (written) Talmud above.

Thanks!

--David

The Talmud includes the oral torah that was written down after the fall of the temple. It includes the traditions of men that Yahshua rebuked.

Now, I've heard that it was given to Moses along with the written Torah too. I have a problem with this story.

I'm putting this together off the top of my head; so please bear with me as a paraphrase to my recollection.

Now after Israel was taken into Babylonian captivity, they remained in captivity for what, a couple hundred years? No matter. The point is that they forgot that the Torah even existed. One day a descendant of Abraham (forgot his name) was going through the archives of a library, and found a dusty old copy of the Torah. He starts reading it and says, "Hey! This is about us! Maybe we should start doing this again."

Now seriously, Israel forgot that the written Torah even existed; but you expect me to believe that the "oral torah" was faithfully handed down, from generation to generation, as YHWH's pure inerrant word?

Really?!?

I don't buy it! I rate the story of the origin of the "oral torah" with more Pinnochio Points, than the assertion that it is YHWH's law. It has value as commentary, and some historic value, nothing more in my opinion.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

That's the whole point. How do you test the ruach, to see if it is kadosh?

Instinctively.

 

[BobRyan]

This is a bit of a strawman. NT shows us deeper revelation of law and greater wisdom into what they mean

It shows us OT saints like Moses and Elijah standing "with Christ in glory" in Matthew 17 - before the cross even happens

I'm sorry I don't understand the point you're making

The NT shows us that the Law known to Moses and Elijah - even before the cross ... was in harmony with the Gospel and being fully glorified with Christ. In other words it was not something that needed to be deleted/replaced in order to stand with Christ in glory.

All the giants of faith in the NT - are OT saints in Hebrews 11.

So while it is true that the more light we have over time - the more the Word of God is seen to have infinite depth.. it does not come in the form of deleting the truths of the Bible - but in magnifying them.

 

[HARK!]

Instinctively.

Have your instincts ever misled you? For example, has anyone ever deceived you?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Have your instincts ever misled you? For example, has anyone ever deceived you?

Of course we have all been deceived however when one walks in the Spirit he knows the truth.

 

[HARK!]

Of course we have all been deceived however when one walks in the Spirit he knows the truth.

So our instincts won't protect us from being deceived by men; but they will protect us from being deceived by spirits?

 

[DamianWarS]

For example...

circumcision

 

[DamianWarS]

It shows us OT saints like Moses and Elijah standing "with Christ in glory" in Matthew 17 - before the cross even happens



The NT shows us that the Law known to Moses and Elijah - even before the cross ... was in harmony with the Gospel and being fully glorified with Christ. In other words it was not something that needed to be deleted/replaced in order to stand with Christ in glory.

All the giants of faith in the NT - are OT saints in Hebrews 11.

So while it is true that the more light we have over time - the more the Word of God is seen to have infinite depth.. it does not come in the form of deleting the truths of the Bible - but in magnifying them.

nothing is removed, it's all the same thing, however, while we cannot ignore/delete/remove the old we also cannot do the same to the new. for example, we are not under compulsion to circumcise not because we reject the old but because we embrace the old with new revelation.

 

[Aussie Pete]

So of the spirit says that Master Yahshua came in the flesh; then it's all good; or does it have to say Lord Jesus came in the flesh?

It does not matter which language. God does not have a problem discerning!