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Testing Spirits

HARK!

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A new covenant has been made that has 1008 commands for the followers of Jesus! It is a body comprised of Jew and Gentile

Nonsense.

(CLV) Ga 3:28
in Whom there is not Jew nor yet Greek, there is not slave nor yet free, there is not male and female, for you all are one in Christ Jesus.

The covenant is with Israel.

(CLV) Hb 8:10
"For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days," the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people.

Yahshua wasn't commissioned for the Jew nor the gentile. He was commissioned only for Israel.

(CLV) Mt 15:24
Now He, [Yahshua] answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

One is free to keep the Mosaic Law (Torah) but as long as they know it does not enhance or give them any righteousness before God.

Not according to the very definition of the word:

What is righteousness?

Definition of righteous

1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin
Definition of RIGHTEOUS


1 John 3:7
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
 
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St_Worm2

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What if the spirit tells you that it's ok to have a BLT for lunch tomorrow? ;)
If a spirit told me that, I would know that it’s not the Spirit of God.
There's a prime example of a spirit that would contradict Yahshua.
Very sorry for taking so long to get back to you two, but my next question is one that I'm sure you have already anticipated, "what about the NT?". IOW, if what you believe about the OT dietary laws is true for Christians, then how do you square that belief with what is taught in the NT (which declares, w/o ambiguity, that all foods are now clean )?

Here are a few passages to consider.

Mark 7
14 When He had called all the multitude to Himself, Jesus said to them, “Hear Me, everyone, and understand:
15 There is nothing that enters into a man from the outside that can defile him; but the things that come out of him, those are the things that defile a man.
16 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!”
17 When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him about the parable.
18 So He said to them, “Are you without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him,
19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods

Acts of the Apostles 10
9 About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray.
10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance.
11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners.
12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13 Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”
14 “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”
15 The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”
16 This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.

Romans 14
1 Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters.
2 One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.
3 The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him.
4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.
7 For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone.
8 If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat.
11 It is written:
“ ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘Every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.’ ”
12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling-block or obstacle in your brother’s way.
14 As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean.
15 If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died.
16 Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil.
17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,
18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.
20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble.
21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves.
23 But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

Thanks :)

--David

edit:
When a spirit comes, and tells me that it's OK to ignore YHWH's perfect Torah; how do I test that spirit?
Hello again Hark!, one last question, what is the "perfect" Torah? Are you referring to the written Torah as "perfect", while the "imperfect" one is the oral Torah perhaps :scratch: Thanks again :)
 
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HARK!

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1 John 3:7
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Sweet! Right on time. I used that one in my response.

Here's another:

(CLV) Dt 6:25
So it shall come to be righteousness for us when we observe to do all this instruction before Yahweh our Elohim, just as He had enjoined on us.
 
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eleos1954

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Nonsense.

(CLV) Ga 3:28
in Whom there is not Jew nor yet Greek, there is not slave nor yet free, there is not male and female, for you all are one in Christ Jesus.

The covenant is with Israel.

(CLV) Hb 8:10
"For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days," the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people.

Yahshua wasn't commissioned for the Jew nor the gentile. He was commissioned only for Israel.

(CLV) Mt 15:24
Now He, [Yahshua] answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."



Not according to the very definition of the word:

What is righteousness?

Definition of righteous

1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin
Definition of RIGHTEOUS

Who is Israel? All believers in Jesus

Romans 9

6It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are Abraham’s descendants are they all his children. On the contrary, “Through Isaac your offspring will be reckoned.”a 8So it is not the children of the flesh who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise (Jesus) who are regarded as offspring. 9For this is what the promise stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”
 
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Minister Monardo

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1 Corinthians 9:1. Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord?
are not ye my work in the Lord?

If any "contemporary scribe" has a better testimony, let him share it. Otherwise, why would anyone
trust someone's "opinion" over his doctrines. The difficulty is for those who would contradict him.
 
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Willing-heart

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When a spirit comes, and tells me that it's OK to ignore YHWH's perfect Torah; how do I test that spirit?

If ever anyone needs confirmation when God speaks, let it be through His Holy Scripture, the Bible. To be sure, God’s voice is never contrary to the word of God, and God’s word does not contradict itself. “When the Holy Spirit communicates to God’s people, He communicates to them by the word, with the word, through the word and never ever ever ever against the word.” – RC Sproul.

Greater is the Gift of Prophesying

What Spirit?
 
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BobRyan

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When a spirit comes, and tells me that it's OK to ignore YHWH's perfect Torah; how do I test that spirit?

sola scriptura - Mark 7:6-13 - that is what Christ said.

Isaiah 8:20 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Acts 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily to see IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - were so"
 
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HARK!

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Which commandments? Can you list for us the commandments you believe God puts in the hearts of those who believe in Jesus, under their categories?

Categories? Do you mean like the ones for men, the ones for women, and the ones for priests?
 
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HARK!

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This is where the strawman part comes in. When a spirit tells us to ignore God's Word this is enough to disqualify the spirit and not listen and testing a spirit against God's Word is a good way to test (obviously it would fail to hold up). But I have a feeling this thread is about keeping the letter of the law. When we only define the laws by what Moses penned in the first 5 books of the Bible we willfully surround ourselves in ignorance. We have more than these 5 books to test the spirits and we should live according to revelation given to us and broaden our understanding of what torah is. But I have a feeling this response is in conflict with the OP's intent.

Where is the strawman argument, unless you are making one?

How do you feel this is in conflict with my intent?
 
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BobRyan

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Which commandments? Can you list for us the commandments you believe God puts in the hearts of those who believe in Jesus, under their categories?

They would have to include the ones where "the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1-2 is the 5th commandment ... in that unit of Law.. (the TEN)

In fact "all ten" would have to be included for that to work out - as apparently the scholars in almost all denominations - admit..

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm ALL ten of the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.
 
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BobRyan

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This is a bit of a strawman. NT shows us deeper revelation of law and greater wisdom into what they mean

It shows us OT saints like Moses and Elijah standing "with Christ in glory" in Matthew 17 - before the cross even happens
 
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HARK!

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Trust in Jesus as Yahweh, and live by the Holy Spirit!

The question is how do we test the spirit that says that it's OK to Ignore YHWH's word. Would the Ruach Ha'Kodesh do that? How do we know?
 
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HARK!

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Ask why it is ok.

That's what I'm doing in asking how we test that.

And then maybe you could say:

If you love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:15

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous.
1 John 5:3

I often do, along with this verse from the Decalogue that's in YHWH's perfect Torah.

(CLV) Ex 20:6
yet showing benignity to thousands, to those loving Me and observing My instructions.
 
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HARK!

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If that were to happen ... Gods word is the test ... and certainly we are not to ignore Gods word ... oh duh?

So are you saying that if a spirit tells you to ignore YHWH's perfect Torah; then that spirit has already failed the test, without even having to search YHWH's perfect Torah?
 
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HARK!

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Isn't fasting not eating food at all?

It can be; but it could also be a fast from food and water. It could also be say, a lettuce fast; where one eats nothing but lettuce, to cleanse.
 
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HARK!

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Mark 7
14 When He had called all the multitude to Himself, Jesus said to them, “Hear Me, everyone, and understand:
15 There is nothing that enters into a man from the outside that can defile him; but the things that come out of him, those are the things that defile a man.
16 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!”
17 When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him about the parable.
18 So He said to them, “Are you without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him,
19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods

Context. This passage speaks of eating bread with unwashed hands.

Compare:


(CLV) 1Co 6:9
Or are you not aware that the unjust shall not be enjoying the allotment of God's kingdom? Be not deceived. Neither paramours, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor catamites, nor sodomites,

(CLV) 1Co 6:10
nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards; not revilers, not extortioners shall be enjoying the allotment of God's kingdom.
 
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HARK!

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Acts of the Apostles 10
9 About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray.
10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance.
11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners.
12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13 Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”
14 “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”
15 The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”
16 This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.

This passage has nothing to do with food.

Acts 10
CLV(i) 9 Now, on the morrow, as they are journeying and drawing near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray about the sixth hour of the day." 10 Now he became ravenous and wanted to taste food. Now, while they are preparing it, an ecstasy came on him,

Looks like Peter's buddies were preparing a nice, Torah observant, healthy meal.

11 and he is beholding heaven open and a certain utensil descending, as a large sheet, with four edges, being let down on the earth, 12 in which belonged all the quadrupeds and reptiles of the earth and the flying creatures of heaven. 13 And a voice came to him, "Rise, Peter! Sacrifice and eat!" 14 Yet Peter said, "Far be it from me, Lord, for I never ate anything contaminating and unclean!"

Peter says NO!

15 And again, a second time, a voice came to him, "What God cleanses, do not you count contaminating!"

Is YHWH going against his own word here? Should we trust voices that tell us to break YHWH's law? Peter isn't dining.

16 Now this occurred thrice,

Still not dining.

and straightway the utensil was taken up into heaven."

There goes the picnic blanket. No treyf for Peter.


17 Now, as Peter was bewildered in himself as to what the vision which he perceived should be, lo!

Bewildered you say? Why not go breaking YHWH's commandments every time a voice pops into your head, instead of taking the time to process it?


the men who have been dispatched by Cornelius, asking the way through to the house of Simon, stand by at the portal." 18 And, shouting, they inquired to ascertain if Simon, surnamed Peter, is lodging in this place." 19 Now, as Peter is engrossed, concerned with the vision, the spirit said to him, "Lo! three men are seeking you!"

Oh lookey here! Three men show up right after Peter rejects the unclean three times! Are the bringing him delivery from the Hungry Heathen? I hear their Heathen Fried Ham Hocks are to die for.


20 But, rising, descend and go with them, nothing doubting, for I have commissioned them."

Rats! Nothing doing. Peter still hasn't eaten. A little rat jerky for the road would have been nice until they get to the Heathen banquet. I wonder if it will be a pig roast.


21 Now Peter, descending to the men, said, "Lo! I am he whom you are seeking. What is the cause for which you are present? 22 Now they say, "Cornelius, a centurion, a man just (Law abiding) and God-fearing, (obedient) besides being attested by the whole nation of the Jews, is apprized by a holy (dedicated) messenger to send after you to come into his house, and to hear declarations from you."

I wonder if there will be any food there. Still no mention of where YHWH forces Peter to eat treyf.

23 Calling them in, then, he lodges them. Now on the morrow, on rising,

Still no food? Peter was ravenous the day before! What could be more important than a PorkFat McMuffin right now?

he came away together with them, and some of the brethren from Joppa came with him." 24 Now on the morrow he entered into Caesarea. Now Cornelius was hoping for them, calling together his relatives and intimate friends."

Traveling; and still no treyf!?

25 Now as Peter came to enter, Cornelius, meeting with him, falling at his feet, worships." 26 Yet Peter raises him, saying, "Rise! I myself also am a man." 27 And, conversing with him, he entered, and is finding many come together." 28 Besides, he averred to them, "You are versed in the fact how illicit it is for a man who is a Jew to join or come to another tribe, and God shows me not to say that any man is contaminating or unclean."

Oh! So YHWH was talking about men, not food. There is no such law in the Torah. That law comes from the Talmud. Yahshua rebuked placing the Talmud over the Torah.

Maybe there's still hope. Maybe YHWH is calling Peter to eat the Heathens. I hear they taste just like pork. By now Peter must be very hungry.

29 Wherefore, without gainsaying, also, being sent after, I came. I am inquiring to ascertain, then, on what account you send after me." 30 And Cornelius averred, "Four days ago unto this hour was I fasting, and at the ninth, praying in my house, and lo! a man stood before me in splendid attire, 31 and is averring, 'Cornelius, your prayer is hearkened to, and your alms are brought to remembrance in God's sight." 32 Send, then, into Joppa, and call for Simon, who is surnamed Peter. He is lodging in the house of Simon, a tanner, beside the sea.'" 33 Forthwith, then I send to you. Besides you do ideally in coming along. Now, then, we are all present in God's sight to hear all that you have been bidden by the Lord." 34 Now Peter, opening his mouth, said, "Of a truth I am grasping that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation he who is fearing Him and acting righteously is acceptable to Him. 36 Of the word He dispatches to the sons of Israel, bringing the evangel of peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all), 37 you are aware, the declaration coming to be down the whole of Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism which John heralds:" 38 Jesus from Nazareth, as God anoints Him with holy spirit and power, Who passed through as a benefactor and healer of all those who are tyrannized over by the Adversary, for God was with Him." 39 And we are witnesses of all that He does, both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem; Whom they assassinate also, hanging Him on a pole." 40 This One God rouses the third day, and gives Him to become disclosed, 41 not to the entire people, but to witnesses who have been selected before by God, to us who ate and drank together with Him after His rising from among the dead." 42 And He charges us to herald to the people and to certify that this One is He Who is specified by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43 To this One are all the prophets testifying: Everyone who is believing in Him is to obtain the pardon of sins through His name." 44 While Peter is still speaking these declarations, the holy spirit falls on all those hearing the word." 45 And amazed were the believers of the Circumcision, whoever come together with Peter, seeing that on the nations also the gratuity of the holy spirit has been poured out." 46 For they heard them speaking in languages and magnifying God. 47 Then Peter answered, "There can not be anyone to forbid water, so that these are not to be baptized, who obtained the holy spirit even as we." 48 Now he bids them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they ask him to stay some days.

Nope, no heathen banquet in any way shape or form. This was all about bringing the Pagans out of Paganism, and into Israel. It was not about taking Israel out of YHWH's Torah, and bringing Israel into Paganism.
 
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HARK!

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Acts 11
CLV(i) 1 Now the apostles and the brethren who are of Judea hear that the nations also receive the word of God. 2 Now when Peter went up into Jerusalem, those of the Circumcision doubted him,

Still no mention of food!

3 saying that "You entered to men having uncircumcision, and you ate with them!"

They weren't surprised by what he ate, simply that he ate with them. No mention of what they ate.


4 Now Peter begins and expounded it to them consecutively, 5 saying, "I was in the city of Joppa, praying; and I perceived, in an ecstasy, a vision, a certain utensil descending, as a large sheet with four edges, being let down out of heaven; and it came as far as me." 6 Into which, looking intently, I considered and perceived the quadrupeds of the earth and the wild beasts and the reptiles and the flying creatures of heaven." 7 Now I hear a voice also, saying to me, 'Rise, Peter! Sacrifice and eat!'" 8 Yet I said, 'Far be it from me, Lord, for a thing contaminating or unclean never entered into my mouth!'"

Now he's bragging about it.

9 Yet the voice answered a second time out of heaven, 'What God cleanses, do not you count contaminating!'" 10 Now this occurred thrice, and it is all pulled up again into heaven."

Same story. No Pagan Picnic!

11 And lo! forthwith three men stand by at the house in which we were, having been dispatched from Caesarea to me." 12 Now the spirit said to me to come together with them, nothing doubting. Now these six brethren also came with me, and we entered into the man's house." 13 Now he reports to us how he perceived the messenger, standing in his house and saying, 'Dispatch to Joppa and send after Simon, who is surnamed Peter, 14 who will be speaking declarations to you by which you shall be saved, you and your entire house.'" 15 Now as I begin to speak, the holy spirit falls on them, even as on us also in the beginning." 16 Now I am reminded of the declaration of the Lord, as He said that 'John, indeed, baptizes in water, yet you shall be baptized in holy spirit.'" 17 If, then, God gives them the equal gratuity as to us also, when believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I - able to forbid God?

Clearly, once again, this story has nothing to do with food. It's about accepting new believers.
 
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eleos1954

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So are you saying that if a spirit tells you to ignore YHWH's perfect Torah; then that spirit has already failed the test, without even having to search YHWH's perfect Torah?

If His word is stored in your heart you don't have to look it up .... if you are not certain ... look it up in His Word.
 
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HARK!

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Romans 14
1 Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters.
2 One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.
3 The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him.
4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.
7 For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone.
8 If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat.
11 It is written:
“ ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘Every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.’ ”
12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling-block or obstacle in your brother’s way.
14 As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean.
15 If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died.
16 Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil.
17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,
18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.
20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble.
21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves.
23 But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

Let's take a closer look at this passage.

(CLV) Ro 14:1
Now the infirm in the faith be taking to yourselves, but not for discrimination of reasonings.

(CLV) Ro 14:2
One, indeed, is believing to eat all things, yet the infirm one is eating greens.

(CLV) Ro 14:3
Let not him who is eating be scorning him who is not eating. (fasting) Yet let not him who is not eating (fasting) be judging him who is eating, for God took him to Himself.

Not eating is called fasting.

(CLV) Ro 14:4
Who are you who are judging Another's domestic? To his own Master he is standing or falling. Now he will be made to stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

(CLV) Ro 14:5
One indeed, is deciding for one day rather than another day, yet one is deciding for every day. Let each one be fully assured in his own mind.

(CLV) Ro 14:6
He who is disposed to the day, is disposed to it to the Lord; and he who is eating, is eating to the Lord, for he is thanking God. And he who is not eating, (fasting) to the Lord is not eating, (fasting) and is thanking God.

10 times within 6 verses we see the word eating; but some completely ignore the word eating; and want to make this about the Sabbath. Nowhere was the sabbath mentioned in this passage. As a matter of fact, the Sabbath isn't mentioned in this whole letter.

This passage tells the readers not to squabble over which days to fast. YHWH gave no commands on which days to fast.

We can find an example of these set fast days in Luke 5: 33-35
 
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