Testing Spirits

[BobRyan]

I think the Sabbath was made for man.

Then the command is "for man" - to "KEEP the Sabbath Holy"

And it is for mankind's GOOD to do so - just like it is for our good to not murder.

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 For six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath of the Lord your God; on it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male slave or your female slave, or your cattle, or your resident who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day; for that reason the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

So then by your statement above - not rebelling against God's Word in that case - is for our good.

Christ is Lord over The Sabbath.

True. It is the Lord's day.

"the Holy day of the Lord" Is 58:13

David ate the shew bread from the temple and the disciples did God’s Work every day of the week as I understand it.

As did Christ and as do pastors, and as did priests all during the OT. That did not delete one of the Ten commandments.

 

[BobRyan]

There is no word man-made law in Philippians 3:8..
This is reference to the works the law for Righteousness (old covenant law)..

The same "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 that is in the Old Covenant is also in the NEW Covenant according to Jer 31:31-34 where God "writes His Law on the heart and mind"

 

[LoveofTruth]

But surely you aren't implying that YHWH's righteousness is in opposition to the righteousness of his perfect Torah?

Hello, Maybe consider this section

"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. 5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach Romans 10:3-8)

 

[LoveofTruth]

Then the command is "for man" - to "KEEP the Sabbath Holy"

And it is for mankind's GOOD to do so - just like it is for our good to not murder.

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 For six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath of the Lord your God; on it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male slave or your female slave, or your cattle, or your resident who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day; for that reason the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

So then by your statement above - not rebelling against God's Word in that case - is for our good.

True. It is the Lord's day.

"the Holy day of the Lord" Is 58:13

As did Christ and as do pastors, and as did priests all during the OT. That did not delete one of the Ten commandments.

consider,

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. 12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ." (2 Corinthians 3:6-10). This refers to the ten commandments with the sabbath also. The law is not made for a righteous man, and we can use the law for other purposes.

"Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation." ( Hebrews 9:9,10)

“In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.”

“For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.”

"For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." ( Hebrews 4:10,11)

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." (Colossians 2"16,17)

 

[HARK!]

Hello, Maybe consider this section

"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. 5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach Romans 10:3-8)

I considered that long ago. In order to understand Paul's letter to the Romans, first we must understand that Paul wrote it from the mind of one who thinks as a lawyer.

Paul mentions at least 8 different kinds of law in that letter.


The Law of Faith (Ch 3)
A Different Law (Ch 7)
The Law of My Mind (Ch 7)
The Law of Sin (Sin's Law) (Ch 7)
God's Law (Ch 7)
The Spirit's Law of Life (Ch 8)
The Law of Sin and Death (Ch 8)
The Law of Righteousness (Ch 9)

Now the Law if Righteousness is no more God's Law, than The Law of Sin and Death or The Law of Paul's Mind.

We need to read Paul's letters in context. Paul continued to stage the context earlier in this letter when he said:

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

You see that Paul says that those who obey the law will be justified. Which law do your suppose he speaks of, His word that is forever stationed in heaven, or the Law of Sin and Death?

(CLV) Ro 3:31
Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.

Yahshua said that YHWH's Torah is forever. Paul agrees, not that Paul was crucified for me, nor was I baptized in the name of Paul.

(CLV) Ro 7:25
I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law.

Notice that Paul declares himself a slave to God's Law, not the law of righteousness. We must not conflate the two.

If you would like to consider Paul's letter to the Romans outside of the dogma of men; but rather in harmony with the words of our Messiah, the words of our Heavenly Father; I have presented a study here:


Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 1
Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 2
Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 3
Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 4
Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 5
Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 6
Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 7
Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 8
Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 9
Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 10
Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 11
Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 12
Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 13
Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 14
Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 15
Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 16

Remember Paul said that the dogma was nailed to the pale.



(CLV) Col 2:14
erasing the handwriting of the decrees (δογμασιν dogmasin dogmas)against us, which was hostile to us, and has taken it away out of the midst, nailing it to the cross (σταυρω staurO pale),

 

[LoveofTruth]

I considered that long ago. In order to understand Paul's letter to the Romans, first we must understand that Paul wrote it from the mind of one who thinks as a lawyer.

Paul mentions at least 8 different kinds of law in that letter.


The Law of Faith (Ch 3)
A Different Law (Ch 7)
The Law of My Mind (Ch 7)
The Law of Sin (Sin's Law) (Ch 7)
God's Law (Ch 7)
The Spirit's Law of Life (Ch 8)
The Law of Sin and Death (Ch 8)
The Law of Righteousness (Ch 9)

Now the Law if Righteousness is no more God's Law, than The Law of Sin and Death or The Law of Paul's Mind.

We need to read Paul's letters in context. Paul continued to stage the context earlier in this letter when he said:

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

You see that Paul says that those who obey the law will be justified. Which law do your suppose he speaks of, His word that is forever stationed in heaven, or the Law of Sin and Death?

(CLV) Ro 3:31
Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.

Yahshua said that YHWH's Torah is forever. Paul agrees, not that Paul was crucified for me, nor was I baptized in the name of Paul.

(CLV) Ro 7:25
I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law.

Notice that Paul declares himself a slave to God's Law, not the law of righteousness. We must not conflate the two.

If you would like to consider Paul's letter to the Romans outside of the dogma of men; but rather in harmony with the words of our Messiah, the words of our Heavenly Father; I have presented a study here:


Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 1
Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 2
Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 3
Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 4
Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 5
Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 6
Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 7
Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 8
Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 9
Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 10
Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 11
Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 12
Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 13
Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 14
Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 15
Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 16

Remember Paul said that the dogma was nailed to the pale.



(CLV) Col 2:14
erasing the handwriting of the decrees (δογμασιν dogmasin dogmas)against us, which was hostile to us, and has taken it away out of the midst, nailing it to the cross (σταυρω staurO pale),

Hello I disagree with alit you say it will take time if I respond but the commandments written in stone (Moses) are sone away a ministration of condemnation and death sone away abolished according to Paul as I quoted above.

 

[HARK!]

Hello I disagree with alit you say it will take time if I respond but the commandments written in stone (Moses) are sone away a ministration of condemnation and death sone away abolished according to Paul as I quoted above.

I don't believe that Paul was a heretic who spoke against Messiah. Let alone YHWH the most high.

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

(CLV) Num 15:1
Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying:

(CLV) Num 15:15
As for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the sojourner sojourning with you. It shall be an eonian (eternal) statute throughout your generations. Like you also shall the sojourner be before Yahweh.

(CLV) Num 15:16
One law and one custom, it shall come to be for you and for the sojourner sojourning with you.

When there seems to be a contradiction between what Paul said and what YHWH said; I try to remember the words of Peter.

(CLV) 2Pt 3:15
And be deeming the patience of our Lord salvation, according as our beloved brother Paul also writes to you, according to the wisdom given to him,

(CLV) 2Pt 3:16
as also in all the epistles, speaking in them concerning these things, in which are some things hard to apprehend, which the unlearned and unstable are twisting, as the rest of the scriptures also, to their own destruction.

You can find a study which reconciles Paul's words, with the eternal word of YHWH, concerning the passage you referenced, here: Paul on the Law: 2 Corinthians 3

 

[BobRyan]

consider,

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. 12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ." (2 Corinthians 3:6-10). This refers to the ten commandments with the sabbath also. The law is not made for a righteous man, and we can use the law for other purposes.

"Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation." ( Hebrews 9:9,10)

“In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.”

“For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.”

"For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." ( Hebrews 4:10,11)

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." (Colossians 2"16,17)

All true of course. So also are the TEN where it is still true that "Honor your father and mother is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 as Paul points out when hammering the force for that commandment home for his readers in Eph 6.

The Old Covenant has "Honor your father and mother" Ex 20:12 - in it.
So also does the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 where the LAW of God known to Jeremiah and his readers is written on the heart under that NC.

Both covenants say it is wrong to take God's name in vain.

etc.

The difference between the moral law of God in the OLD Covenant (apart from the gospel, apart from grace) and the moral law of God under the NEW Covenant -- (Jer 31:31-34, Heb 8:6-12) is not that it is ok to take God's name in vain under the New Covenant but not under the Old.

 

[LoveofTruth]

All true of course. So also are the TEN where it is still true that "Honor your father and mother is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 as Paul points out when hammering the force for that commandment home for his readers in Eph 6.

The Old Covenant has "Honor your father and mother" Ex 20:12 - in it.
So also does the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 where the LAW of God known to Jeremiah and his readers is written on the heart under that NC.

Both covenants say it is wrong to take God's name in vain.

etc.

The difference between the moral law of God in the OLD Covenant (apart from the gospel, apart from grace) and the moral law of God under the NEW Covenant -- (Jer 31:31-34, Heb 8:6-12) is not that it is ok to take God's name in vain under the New Covenant but not under the Old.

No, the verse about honouring father and mother applies to all time before the law and after we find examples of this in scripture. Paul also alters the OT law by promising not to inherit the land for the Jews but for the church long life on the earth . He changes the OT law and applies it to the New Testament church of both Jews and Gentiles. For we are one in Christ.

Also Paul said the law can be used lawfully, it is not made for a righteous man. In Christ we walk in love shed abroad in our hearts. Love fulfills the law. Yes, we can use it to show many things and warn of sin etc. Fir by the law is the knowledge of sin. Killing another has always been wrong and so has not honouring your parents etc.

The Ten Commandments are done away as a way to be righteous as Paul said in scripture. Even when sone say that moral law is still for today abd they try to keep the sabbath of the Ten Commandments the sabbath is not a moral law.

But Paul ajso talks of honouring the king and overseers who labour in word and doctrine and other honour we give.