Temporal Salvation?

[GDL]

Sections of Scripture like Heb6:6 & John15:6 have been touched on from both perspectives - losing salvation & simply discipline of the believer (and maybe even being non-believers). What's your thinking & can you explain beyond what they just "appear" to be saying. Quoting Gill or any other source you agree with is fine.

Sorry, I recall you copying Gill on J15 and his saying the non-abiding are not true believers.

This would seem to argue for my point #1 & not #3. Agree or no?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Actually it isn't possible to lose salvation, there are just passages that appear so, like "depart from the faith," "fallen from grace," etc.

Well, this is odd. Your posts seem to be in agreement with Doug and GDL.

I said:
"there isn't anywhere in the Bible that warns of "faith in profession only". That idea is found only in the heads of people."

This is what Jesus meant by "they honoureth Me with their lips (by professing and confessing falsely); but their heart is far from Me" (Mat 15:8). James said the same thing in 2:18. "A may may say . . ." Profess and confess are the same thing in the Greek, such as in Tit 1:16:
G3670 - homologeō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

Yes, there are dishonest people, like the Pharisees, who only paid "lip service" to God. But I'm talking about faith in Christ. For salvation. Those who make a profession but don't really mean it aren't saved, obviously. Like the term "false brethren" mentioned by Paul, twice.

I said:
"There is no such thing as "an unceasing walk""
True for those whose walk and profession are genuine, but all hypocrites and apostates will eventually cease from their false profession and walk.[/QUOTE]
Not true for any one. And I gave the proof by all the warnings Paul gave (commands) regarding the Spirit.

Genuine professions don't guarantee an "unceasing walk". That is just fantasy. And an excuse to consign people to hell whose lives offend Arminians; by claiming they weren't "genuine believers".

 

[FreeGrace2]

For the 400th time, only those believing have eternal life.

OK, for the 401st time, we've been over this. Salvation is assured the MOMENT one believes. I've proven it from the Bible.

If you don't believe at any point in time (and by this in mean that if we deliberately abandon the faith and repudiate it) you do not have eternal life.

Yet, you have not proven your claim from the Bible. And John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 both are clear that condemnation is for those who "have not believed".

So your theory about ceasing to believe is refuted by those 2 verses. I'm just sorry that in spite of all your Greek training, you do not comprehend that fact.

Despite your ill conceived attempts to say otherwise, the Greek does not foster or otherwise support your assertions that faith is a matter of one and done theology!

Again, I'm just sorry that in spite of all your Greek training that you just don't comprehend the FACTS.

Salvation is instantaneous the MOMENT one believes. And the MOMENT one believes means it cannot be said of them that they "have not believed", because they HAVE.

The problem is that it just bugs you that someone whose faith fails will still enter heaven. I'm not recommending such an action, but I know what the Bible says.

And the overwhelming message of scripture as well as common sense and experience cannot be ignored in opposition to your claims.

You're just speaking from your own emotions about how offended you are about the fact that a child of God (who remains a child of God) will still enter heaven even if their faith fails. You just don't understand grace.

We believe and assert that only those who are actually believing have the hope of eternal life

Eternal life isn't a "hope". It's a present tense reality, which you, of all people, should know. From the moment one believes.

and that the point of eternal life becoming a reality is, generally speaking, death or the return of Christ; thus we must be actively believing at that point to enter into life eternal.

Yet, you have NO evidence at all for such thinking.

 

[WordSword]

Sections of Scripture like Heb6:6 & John15:6 have been touched on from both perspectives - losing salvation & simply discipline of the believer (and maybe even being non-believers). What's your thinking & can you explain beyond what they just "appear" to be saying. Quoting Gill or any other source you agree with is fine.

Thanks.

Welcome, and appreciate your instructional inquiries! Hebrews 6:4-6 is entirely hypothetical and is a hyperbolic expression, which is mostly obvious in v 6. It begins with an assumption and not a determination, e.g. "if they fall away. . ." This means in order to be saved again (which is "impossible," you can only be lost or saved once) the Lord Jesus would have to be "crucified again" (impossible), which would mean depicting Him again as a shamed person (Gal 3:13).

Verses 4, 5 I believe are what many are confused about because I think they do describe genuine faith and salvation, but this is designed for the intention of demonstrating the impossibility of a true believer never losing salvation, because in that case they could never be saved, and is why verses 9-12 declare they would never encounter such a loss.

I think it noteworthy to also include that it must be realized how young in the Lord Jesus they were in those times, and how long it took for Christians to understand Paul's writings when he finally brought them forth; which I think what most perceive as warnings I see as admonishments, being new with "the Word of Truth" (2Co 6:7; Eph 1:13; 2Ti 2:15; Jas 1:18).

 

[TibiasDad]

This is something I've already posted to attempt to address this question: What the Lord Jesus means by “believeth in Me” (Jhn 11:25, 26; 12:46) intends genuine faith, not just a said faith in profession only (Jam 2:18; Mat 15:8), but is manifested by an unceasing walk in the fruit of the Spirit in and through those reborn. Therefore to believe in God is different from believing in the things of this life only, as one cannot truly profess faith in Him and latter say he disbelieves, which shows to be a worldly and natural faith of man, and not the faith only from the Spirit (Gal 5:22).

Hi WordSword,

Couple of questions:

1) What is the foundation of your assertion that "one cannot truly profess faith in Him and latter say he disbelieves"? What scripture declares this impossibility, and what logic determines that one cannot be changed in their thinking from one opinion to another. It seems to me, that the whole episode in the Garden is about how we can be deceived into changing our beliefs about what God says.

And,
2) How do you explain one such as Charles Templeton who was a vibrant evangelist in the early days of Billy Graham who changed his thinking and became an atheist an antagonist of the Church and the gospel?

Doug

 

[WordSword]

I said:
"there isn't anywhere in the Bible that warns of "faith in profession only".

But I'm talking about faith in Christ. For salvation. Those who make a profession but don't really mean it aren't saved, obviously. Like the term "false brethren" mentioned by Paul, twice.

I'm think we may not be understanding one another. How about - "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny Him" (Tit 1:16).

I said:
"There is no such thing as "an unceasing walk""

True, genuine believers will not cease to walk in the Spirit. But all hypocrites and apostates will eventually cease from their false profession and walk.[/QUOTE]

Not true for any one. And I gave the proof by all the warnings Paul gave (commands) regarding the Spirit.

There have always been those who profess to be saved but in reality are not saved (Spirit not in them), which will always eventually show, for "your sin will surely find you out" (Num 32:23).

Genuine professions don't guarantee an "unceasing walk".

One who truly professes faith, which is indicated mostly by practical walk in God's love to one another, is guaranteed to continue to "desire and do His good pleasure" (Phl 2:13).

 

[TibiasDad]

Eternal life isn't a "hope". It's a present tense reality, which you, of all people, should know. From the moment one believes.

The scripture I cited prove otherwise, FG, I notice you conveniently leave those out of your rebuttal! It is another sad example of sticking your head in the sand and ignoring the evidence in front of you. John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12have been dealt with ad nauseam and cannot stand the test of Greek grammar and syntax. the necessity of maintaining the faith we had at the beginning has been demonstrated time and time again by many of us here, and for a very long period of time by some of us, and my efforts are but one of the latest in this procession.

I've only been on this forum for a few months, and my thoughts of you have changed greatly over that time from just one with a different opinion, to one that is unable to think outside the framework of what he's been indoctrinated to believe, simply regurgitating the "party line" and talking points, much like a JW or other cult-like organization. I am now reaching the point of pure pity, for you don't seem to be able to truly deal with the evidences presented to you. It is impossible to communicate with those who cannot listen with honesty to what's been said. It is not that you disagree with me, it is the manner in which you express your disagreement. It is the evident behavior that you refuse to deal with arguments in an honest manner and on the basis of the texts themselves, both in context and in the wider scope of all scripture. I truly worry for you in spirit and fear for what these seeds of belief might bring forth over the years. I do not doubt your sincerity, but I do fear that it is another gospel that you have been hoodwinked into believing.


Doug

 

[GDL]

For the 400th time, only those believing have eternal life. If you don't believe at any point in time (and by this in mean that if we deliberately abandon the faith and repudiate it) you do not have eternal life. Despite your ill conceived attempts to say otherwise, the Greek does not foster or otherwise support your assertions that faith is a matter of one and done theology!

A few observations from a couple sections of Scripture:

NKJ John 6:51-56 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world." 52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?" 53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 "For My flesh is food indeed1, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

- Eating & drinking is not a one-time event, but a repeated necessity for life.
- Jesus says this eating & drinking means 2 things: gives us life, and causes us to abide in Him & He in us.
- Jesus says if we're not doing this eating & drinking, then we have no life in ourselves.
- The problem for the separating belief and abiding view (saying momentary belief is all that necessary for having eternal life, and abiding is just a fellowship matter) - is Jesus here connects inextricably them:
--- If we [repeatedly] eat & drink of Him - then we have life & abide
--- If we do not [repeatedly] eat & drink of Him - then we have no life & we don't abide.
- There is no having eternal life & not abiding.

NKJ 1 Jn. 2:22-29 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us-- eternal life. 26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that when1 He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

- Continual Belief (not denying) that Jesus is the Christ, is abiding in the Son & the Father
- Continual Abiding in the Son & the Father is necessary for the receipt of eternal life promised by God.
- The continuing context of this is "doing righteousness" - which is ultimately continuing in obedience to God
- - There is no having eternal life & not abiding.

NKJ 1 John 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

- By the use of the words "either" & "also" in 1J2:23 (earlier context) - John speaks of "having" not only the Father, but also the "Son."
- To have the Son & to thereby have life - one must abide/remain in the belief that Jesus is the Christ
- There is no condition here that provides for believing but not abiding for eternal life

NKJ John 15:10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

- Per the context, to abide in Him is to abide in His love.
- The ongoing keeping His commandments (ongoing obeying Him) is to abide in Him
- The ongoing belief that He is the Christ is to abide in Him and have eternal life
- The repeated eating & drinking of Him is to abide in Him and have eternal life

There's no room here for a momentary, temporary, one-time belief for eternal life. Soteriology like any other doctrine needs to be derived from the whole Word of God, and not by isolating a few verses that seem to says that it's [undefined] belief only.

Biblical Belief is not momentary, or temporary. If it was, then abiding would not be necessary for eternal life, but it clearly is.

 

[TibiasDad]

A few observations from a couple sections of Scripture:

NKJ John 6:51-56 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world." 52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?" 53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 "For My flesh is food indeed1, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

- Eating & drinking is not a one-time event, but a repeated necessity for life.
- Jesus says this eating & drinking means 2 things: gives us life, and causes us to abide in Him & He in us.
- Jesus says if we're not doing this eating & drinking, then we have no life in ourselves.
- The problem for the separating belief and abiding view (saying momentary belief is all that necessary for having eternal life, and abiding is just a fellowship matter) - is Jesus here connects inextricably them:
--- If we [repeatedly] eat & drink of Him - then we have life & abide
--- If we do not [repeatedly] eat & drink of Him - then we have no life & we don't abide.
- There is no having eternal life & not abiding.

NKJ 1 Jn. 2:22-29 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us-- eternal life. 26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that when1 He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

- Continual Belief (not denying) that Jesus is the Christ, is abiding in the Son & the Father
- Continual Abiding in the Son & the Father is necessary for the receipt of eternal life promised by God.
- The continuing context of this is "doing righteousness" - which is ultimately continuing in obedience to God
- - There is no having eternal life & not abiding.

NKJ 1 John 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

- By the use of the words "either" & "also" in 1J2:23 (earlier context) - John speaks of "having" not only the Father, but also the "Son."
- To have the Son & to thereby have life - one must abide/remain in the belief that Jesus is the Christ
- There is no condition here that provides for believing but not abiding for eternal life

NKJ John 15:10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

- Per the context, to abide in Him is to abide in His love.
- The ongoing keeping His commandments (ongoing obeying Him) is to abide in Him
- The ongoing belief that He is the Christ is to abide in Him and have eternal life
- The repeated eating & drinking of Him is to abide in Him and have eternal life

There's no room here for a momentary, temporary, one-time belief for eternal life. Soteriology like any other doctrine needs to be derived from the whole Word of God, and not by isolating a few verses that seem to says that it's [undefined] belief only.

Biblical Belief is not momentary, or temporary. If it was, then abiding would not be necessary for eternal life, but it clearly is.

Your preaching to the choir my brother!

Doug

 

[GDL]

but I do fear that it is another gospel that you have been hoodwinked into believing

Have similarly (to JBL's doctrine of demons comment) wondered when this would be stated.

 

[GDL]

Your preaching to the choir my brother!

Knew you'd think so.

At this point it boggles the mind (as they say) that some can fight so hard for temporary belief for EL.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"there isn't anywhere in the Bible that warns of "faith in profession only".

But I'm talking about faith in Christ. For salvation. Those who make a profession but don't really mean it aren't saved, obviously. Like the term "false brethren" mentioned by Paul, twice."

I'm think we may not be understanding one another. How about - "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny Him" (Tit 1:16).

Good question. Thanks. Paul made the statement a number of times in various epistles like "I would not have you ignorant, brethren...". This indicates that believers can be ignorant of biblical principles. So I don't see Titus 1:16 as referring to "professors" but not "possessors". There are believers who have been deceived by Satan, and have followed in line with all the "social justice" lies that are out there today. They have good intentions, but they have no discernment between good and evil.

So, a believer can profess their faith in God, and yet support radical left ideas on the basis of thinking the radical left is truly about being against racism, which it isn't.

True, genuine believers will not cease to walk in the Spirit.

No, I didn't say that. I pointed out Gal 5:16, which i a command to follow. In fact, Paul sets up a contrast in v.16.

"So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh."

The contrast is between "walking by the Spirit" and "grafiying the desires (lusts) of the flesh".

iow, those who "walk by the Spirit" will NOT "gratify the desires of the flesh".

However, the opposite is also true. Believers who don't "walk by the Spirit" WILL "gratify the desires of the flesh".

But all hypocrites and apostates will eventually cease from their false profession and walk.

I don't know that. I haven't interviewed any of them.

There have always been those who profess to be saved but in reality are not saved (Spirit not in them), which will always eventually show, for "your sin will surely find you out" (Num 32:23).

I would suspect the vast majority of those who think they are saved have been deceived by a lot of false doctrine and a very watered down gospel message. Such as the "social gospel" and things like that.

One who truly professes faith, which is indicated mostly by practical walk in God's love to one another, is guaranteed to continue to "desire and do His good pleasure" (Phl 2:13).

I don't see any guarantee in Phil 2:13. "for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose."

What I do see is God's purpose for each believer. It is God's power that accomplishes His works in the believer. But, the believer must be filled with the Spirit, walking by the Spirit, and NOT grieving/quenching the Spirit for that to occur.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Eternal life isn't a "hope". It's a present tense reality, which you, of all people, should know. From the moment one believes."

The scripture I cited prove otherwise, FG

No, you haven't.

I notice you conveniently leave those out of your rebuttal!

No, I haven't.

It is another sad example of sticking your head in the sand and ignoring the evidence in front of you.

You've given no evidence. Unlike myself.

John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12have been dealt with ad nauseam and cannot stand the test of Greek grammar and syntax.

Wrong again. Condemnation is for those who "have not believed".

What is your translation of each verse again? Refresh my memory, please. All I recall is that you attempted to prove that "have not believed" cannot mean "has never believed", which is just ludicrous, because it sure does.

So, without all the Greek gymnastics, just provide your own English translation of each verse. Because I still don't know what you think the verses say.

the necessity of maintaining the faith we had at the beginning has been demonstrated time and time again by many of us here

May I point out that a claim is far from a demonstration.

and for a very long period of time by some of us, and my efforts are but one of the latest in this procession.

Claim, not demonstration.

2

I've only been on this forum for a few months, and my thoughts of you have changed greatly over that time from just one with a different opinion, to one that is unable to think outside the framework of what he's been indoctrinated to believe, simply regurgitating the "party line" and talking points

Party line? lol. What an imagination!! My views come straight from the words in the Bible. If one believes what you claim (not demonstrate), then we just can't trust ANY English translation.

To top that off, when I examine Greek words from a lexicon, and parsing of verbs from biblehub.com, I don't find anything that changes my mind.

What I've observed from your posts is that you don't even read the text properly. You see things that aren't there, and add things in that aren't there.

much like a JW or other cult-like organization.

Nice ad hominem there. Which you seem to enjoy.

Since my belief is that salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone, to compare me with any cult is beyond absurd. It just shows how little you apparently understand.

I am now reaching the point of pure pity, for you don't seem to be able to truly deal with the evidences presented to you.

I've been waiting for your evidence. All I've seen is your opinions.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Knew you'd think so.

At this point it boggles the mind (as they say) that some can fight so hard for temporary belief for EL.

I'm not "fighting so hard" for temporary belief, as if I support such nonsense.

What I AM fighting for is truth from God's Word.

The FACT is that a person is permanently saved at the moment of saving faith. For most people, they continue to believe for the rest of their lives. However, for reasons that Jesus touched on with the second soil, some believers will lose faith due to those and other reasons, like Charles Templeton.

The real bottom line is that Arminians are just too offended by the fact that a child of God can cease to believe and still enter heaven.

Since all sin has already been paid for, you have no right to your hyper-sensitive sensibilities.

 

[GDL]

Welcome, and appreciate your instructional inquiries! Hebrews 6:4-6 is entirely hypothetical and is a hyperbolic expression, which is mostly obvious in v 6. It begins with an assumption and not a determination, e.g. "if they fall away. . ." This means in order to be saved again (which is "impossible," you can only be lost or saved once) the Lord Jesus would have to be "crucified again" (impossible), which would mean depicting Him again as a shamed person (Gal 3:13).

Verses 4, 5 I believe are what many are confused about because I think they do describe genuine faith and salvation, but this is designed for the intention of demonstrating the impossibility of a true believer never losing salvation, because in that case they could never be saved, and is why verses 9-12 declare they would never encounter such a loss.

Firstly, please let me know if you're getting this view from a commentary I can read from the link you sent. I glanced through Gill earlier but am not recalling at the moment what he says re: Heb6.

My read:

Heb5:9 speaks of salvation by obeying Christ, our High Priest. Heb5:11 - 6:3 begins a rebuke & speaks of the need to grow from spiritual infancy to maturity/perfection and getting beyond the basics. Heb6:3 says we’ll do this “if only/indeed” (an intensified "if" clause) God permits/allows.

This section of Hebrews has the writer chastising his readers for their lack of progress in spiritual growth. "If indeed God allows" is a warning to back up the rebuke.

There is no hypothetical or hyperbolic language in 6:4—6. The KJV & NKJ translations insert an “if” at the beginning of 6:6, but it is an interpretation of the participle that most other English translations don’t agree with. FWIW, nor do I.

So, 6:4 continues from the warning of God’s allowing or disallowing the advance to maturity/ perfection with an explanatory “gar”:

NET Heb. 6:4-6 For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 tasted the good word of God and the miracles of the coming age, 6 and then have committed apostasy,6 to renew them again to repentance, since7 they are crucifying the Son of God for themselves all over again8 and holding him up to contempt.

This is saying God may not allow those who do not heed His commands to grow up (in 5:13-14 the issue in growth is to become well exercised in our faculties to judge both good & bad according to His “Word of Righteousness” as opposed to the infant who is unlearned/unskilled in the WoR).

He’s given us all we need for this growth. It’s a part of what He put His Son on the cross to enable us to become. It’s about becoming learned & skilled in righteousness. And if think this is a joke or something not to pursue with all we have in us, then He at some point may disallow our advance for holding “His Son in contempt.”

I agree that 4-5 do describe Biblical Faith. 6:6 speaks of falling away. There again, 6:6 begins with “and” so is a continuation of the list of things begun in 6:4.

6:7-8 speak of the blessing of growth & conversely the destruction for falling away.

6:9-11 is encouragement to not be in this condition which was based in non-growth and worsened from there.

6:12 is about not becoming lazy/sluggish and instead imitating those who inherit the promises through faith & patience. And please notice the continuing faith here.

What concerns me with your interpretations is that this is (I think) the 3rd time you are bringing forth this concept of “appearing” and “hyperbole” and now “hypothetical.” I was schooled to think some of this also, but I no longer do.

These warnings about falling away are not hyperbole in my view now. Nor is the warning about treating with contempt what Jesus died for. His death provided for us to become grown-ups in knowledge of and living righteousness in love/obedience to Him & to our Father. He clear the way & provided for our being raised & trained to overcome sin to increasing degrees.

Being lazy about this growing up is ultimately sin in itself since we are commanded to grow up (2Pet3:18) and rebuked for not doing so (Heb5; 1Cor3).

Also, the word translated as “committed apostasy” in the NET translation above is parapipto. If you chase this word around the Text and analyze it lexically, it is dealing with a concept of sin. It literally means to fall aside. So think of our walking & then fall aside where we don't get back to the right path.

A non-presuppositional interpretation of these verses IMO give the impression this warning is meaningful & treating Christ with contempt is not good.

Turning them into hyperbole seems eisegetical to support a specific soteriology.

 

[TibiasDad]

So, without all the Greek gymnastics, just provide your own English translation of each verse. Because I still don't know what you think the verses say.

One wonders why someone might be afraid of the Greek...the original language... the language that gives us the meaning of what the writers meant to say. We'll just let discerning minds contemplate this quandary!

Doug

 

[GDL]

NET Heb. 6:4-6 For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 tasted the good word of God and the miracles of the coming age, 6 and then have committed apostasy,6 to renew them again to repentance, since7 they are crucifying the Son of God for themselves all over again8 and holding him up to contempt.

Sorry, I had some verse notes toggled on & they added a bunch of reference numbers into the Text. Here's a claen version:

NET Heb6:4-6 For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 tasted the good word of God and the miracles of the coming age, 6 and then have committed apostasy, to renew them again to repentance, since they are crucifying the Son of God for themselves all over again and holding him up to contempt.

 

[TibiasDad]

The real bottom line is that Arminians are just too offended by the fact that a child of God can cease to believe and still enter heaven.

1) We are not offended
2) If we were why would that matter?
3) It is not a fact!

I do not care that you believe what you believe, for you have the right to believe what you will; nor does your belief offend me. I am not appreciative of your arguments, but that you hold them takes no skin off my teeth. The word of God will stand against all manner of error, and my feelings will not effect any difference, so there is reason to be offended. This is not to say that don't I think that some doctrines are offensive to the message of the gospel, but that I think such doctrines to be an offence to the gospel is of no personal offense to me for I do not matter in the issue, and thus whether or not I feel offended is meaningless to the arguments over this topic of discussion.

What does matter, is that the fact of your assertions is anything but a fact! Facts are things like the Deity of Christ, the death and resurrection of Christ, but that "a one and done" interpretation is beyond doubt is not a fact of orthodoxy!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Firstly, please let me know if you're getting this view from a commentary I can read from the link you sent. I glanced through Gill earlier but am not recalling at the moment what he says re: Heb6.

My read:

Heb5:9 speaks of salvation by obeying Christ, our High Priest. Heb5:11 - 6:3 begins a rebuke & speaks of the need to grow from spiritual infancy to maturity/perfection and getting beyond the basics. Heb6:3 says we’ll do this “if only/indeed” (an intensified "if" clause) God permits/allows.

This section of Hebrews has the writer chastising his readers for their lack of progress in spiritual growth. "If indeed God allows" is a warning to back up the rebuke.

There is no hypothetical or hyperbolic language in 6:4—6. The KJV & NKJ translations insert an “if” at the beginning of 6:6, but it is an interpretation of the participle that most other English translations don’t agree with. FWIW, nor do I.

So, 6:4 continues from the warning of God’s allowing or disallowing the advance to maturity/ perfection with an explanatory “gar”:

NET Heb. 6:4-6 For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 tasted the good word of God and the miracles of the coming age, 6 and then have committed apostasy,6 to renew them again to repentance, since7 they are crucifying the Son of God for themselves all over again8 and holding him up to contempt.

This is saying God may not allow those who do not heed His commands to grow up (in 5:13-14 the issue in growth is to become well exercised in our faculties to judge both good & bad according to His “Word of Righteousness” as opposed to the infant who is unlearned/unskilled in the WoR).

He’s given us all we need for this growth. It’s a part of what He put His Son on the cross to enable us to become. It’s about becoming learned & skilled in righteousness. And if think this is a joke or something not to pursue with all we have in us, then He at some point may disallow our advance for holding “His Son in contempt.”

I agree that 4-5 do describe Biblical Faith. 6:6 speaks of falling away. There again, 6:6 begins with “and” so is a continuation of the list of things begun in 6:4.

6:7-8 speak of the blessing of growth & conversely the destruction for falling away.

6:9-11 is encouragement to not be in this condition which was based in non-growth and worsened from there.

6:12 is about not becoming lazy/sluggish and instead imitating those who inherit the promises through faith & patience. And please notice the continuing faith here.

What concerns me with your interpretations is that this is (I think) the 3rd time you are bringing forth this concept of “appearing” and “hyperbole” and now “hypothetical.” I was schooled to think some of this also, but I no longer do.

These warnings about falling away are not hyperbole in my view now. Nor is the warning about treating with contempt what Jesus died for. His death provided for us to become grown-ups in knowledge of and living righteousness in love/obedience to Him & to our Father. He clear the way & provided for our being raised & trained to overcome sin to increasing degrees.

Being lazy about this growing up is ultimately sin in itself since we are commanded to grow up (2Pet3:18) and rebuked for not doing so (Heb5; 1Cor3).

Also, the word translated as “committed apostasy” in the NET translation above is parapipto. If you chase this word around the Text and analyze it lexically, it is dealing with a concept of sin. It literally means to fall aside. So think of our walking & then fall aside where we don't get back to the right path.

A non-presuppositional interpretation of these verses IMO give the impression this warning is meaningful & treating Christ with contempt is not good.

Turning them into hyperbole seems eisegetical to support a specific soteriology.

FYI note the extra 6 in "coming age, 6 and then have committed apostasy,6 to renew"...

Doug

 

[GDL]

FYI note the extra 6 in "coming age, 6 and then have committed apostasy,6 to renew"...

Doug

Yes, thanks. Sorry about that. See my #657.