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Temporal Salvation?

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TibiasDad

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Just a parting shot at your "cult" comment.

Just realize that in every religion and cult, salvation is earned by effort, or works, and there are no guarantees of salvation until the very end. Oh, except in Islam, where suicide bombers are guaranteed 72 black haired virgins to play with.

Only in biblial Christianity is salvation by grace alone, and kept by grace alone.

So your "saved by grace" but "kept by fill in the line" idea is really much closer to cults than what I believe.

No true Christian believes in anyone is saved or maintained by means of his own works. There is nothing that we do that is not caused by or enabled by grace alone.

What you are calling Grace is is really monergism, that God is the only one involved in the process of salvation. We believe in synergism, that God's grace is the effective cause of all salvation, but that he has required man's volitional involvement (to believe) in what he has promised.

We must have God act first, graciously, before we are capable of doing anything spiritually acceptable to God. Moreover, God is never obligated to act positively to anything man does or his own accord, so if God does act positively, it is always a gracious act and never mertitorious! In other words, it is impossible for any act of man to cause God to act positively toward him, so it can never be anything but grace that is the cause of man's salvation.

Doug
 
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FreeGrace2

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I surly appreciate you sincerity, but there's no passage containing plain direct wording like that for faith, nor any for salvation, but it would seem much easier to discuss if there were.
I have to disagree with you regarding salvation, for there are many verses that very plainly explain how one receives salvation, Eph 2;8,9 being just one of many.

There is one that I think comes close in 1Co 13:13 - "Now abideth (Greek; menō - remains, continues or endures: G3306 - menō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)) faith, hope and charity" (1Co 13:13).
Was Paul referring to every believer here? Certainly it can easily be proven that hope doesn't always endure for every believer, nor charity, and even Jesus was clear that the second soil DID believe, though 'for a while'.

So, it seems clear that faith may not endure.

There are three types of faith: 1) natural faith all have. 2) gift of faith from the Spirit (1Co 12:9). 3) fruit of faith from the Spirit (Gal 5:22), which is the faith given for salvation (Eph 2:8).
For me, believing or faith is the result of evidence. People believe what they understand as evidence. But we have the common phrase, "I see it, but I don't believe it". Of course if a person sees something, they surely believe they saw it. So, what they mean is that what they clearly saw was quite impressive, and even unable to explain.

I see biblical faith being of 2 types. First is saving faith, whereby a person hears the gospel, and realizes it is true, and puts their trust in Christ for salvation. And they are saved at that moment. Second, there is "lifestyle faith", which refers to the day to day dependence upon God's provision for your life.

The Exodus generation were all saved, per 1 Cor 10:1-5, but they clearly failed to exercise lifestyle faith repeatedly. And were disciplined for it, which ultimately included their physical deaths.

So Heb 3:19 refers to lifestyle faith, not saving faith. Even Moses failed in lifestyle faith, but only 1 recorded time. And for that, God would not let him into the promised land!

Regarding saving faith, God created humans with a conscience that recognizes good and evil, or right and wrong. Every culture has a system of "right and wrong". It varies among cultures, but all of them have them. And evolution cannot explain why. Only the Bible does. Rom 2:14,15.

So, from one's conscience, a person is able to understand the gospel. Further, God has revealed Himself clearly through creation, so that no one has any excuse for not recognizing the existence of God and understanding His attributes. Rom 1:19,20.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said:
"But, since you have claimed to be a trained Greek student, and you refuse to admit that "have not believed" cannot mean "have never believed","
I am assuming that you meant to say "can mean" and not "cannot mean".
My bad. Another typo.

I have only said that "have not believed" does not normally or necessarily mean "have never believed".
You have never explained your opinion. Why not? In fact, the ONLY WAY is wouldn't necessarily mean "never" is when a specific time frame is included in the context.

And there is NO context for any kind of time frame noted in either John 3:18 or 2 Thess 2:12.

And my example of murder proves ME right. If you "have NOT murdered anyone", then you have "have NEVER murdered anyone". Anyone can see this truth. Except you.
 
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GDL

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which is the faith given for salvation (Eph 2:8)

NIV Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-- and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--

There seems always debate re: the word "this" (I've highlighted) in Eph2:8. - whether it refers to "faith" or to the entire preceding clause - Salvation by grace through faith being the gift.

I looked ahead. Gill brings up the argument & likes faith as the gift. But the Greek professor he quotes does not provide this conclusion.

FWIW, I've read & studied & listened to some discuss & debate this matter. In the end it's not a good verse to use to establish that faith is a gift.
 
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FreeGrace2

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No true Christian believes in anyone is saved or maintained by means of his own works. There is nothing that we do that is not caused by or enabled by grace alone.
You seem to have a knack for missing the point here. I never suggested what you seem to think I did. Here is the point: cults all believe that they must do something to "go to heaven". Your belief is salvation is by grace, but keeping your salvation REQUIRES you to maintain your faith, etc.

What you are calling Grace is is really monergism, that God is the only one involved in the process of salvation.
It is His plan completely. And it is received by believing what He says and does.

We believe in synergism, that God's grace is the effective cause of all salvation, but that he has required man's volitional involvement (to believe) in what he has promised.
If that were all, I would agree with you. But you clearly believe MORE than this. You keep insisting that a person must continue to believe, which basically suggests that you think you are saved by what you keep doing.

Moreover, God is never obligated to act positively to anything man does or his own accord
Here's the thing that you may have missed. God IS obligated to fulfill His promises. All of them. So when man simply believes what God promises, then God has obligated Himself to act.

so if God does act positively, it is always a gracious act and never mertitorious!
I agree, but the point remains that WHEN God does act, it is because of His own promises which have obligated Himself to do.
 
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WordSword

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It sounds as if you believe that being "conformed by Him" is pretty much guaranteed by your statement. I believe that being conformed by Him refers to the process of spiritual growth, which Scripture clearly indicates isn't guaranteed. In fact, the author of Hebrews said as much in Heb 5.
Chapter 5 is a good choice of applicability to the growth issue, as I think it demonstrates, along with Chapter 6 that God always brings those who believe in Him to maturity, as He always brought His people back to His fellowship, which also shows unbroken union with the believers.

The restoration always begins by admonishing us and making us aware of where we are in our understanding concerning His will. Verses 12-14 declares their lack and slowness to learn, and Chapter 6 gives them some of what they need to begin their correction (He's always chastising believers, never punishes them); of which Paul demonstrates his assurance that they will apply it (vs 9-12).

But spiritual growth isn't guaranteed. That's the problem. If a believer isn't filled with the Spirit, walking by Him, but rather grieves/quenches the Spirit, they will NOT grow up in their salvation.
I believe the Spirit will teach and enable every single believer to be conformed to the Father's "work" (Phl 2:13), but there are always many who profess faith but do not have it, and it's theses we are always warned about and who distract with hypocrisy and apostasy.

While our understanding of growth doctrine is immature, there will be some quenching and grieving of the Spirit, which will continue to lessen as we grow. But I do not believe those reborn (believers) willfully commit this wrong. It's descriptive of those who are yet immature, and after being saved it's all about maturing in Christ by the Spirit. The majority of Church in Christ even after the last Apostle's death (John) and after significant time of Paul's writings, were quite immature in the Word, which always, even today requires much time in study concerning the growth truths of Scripture (esp. the NT Epistles).

Why not the professor simply isn't filled with the Spirit, isn't walking by the Spirit, but rather by their own desires, and are grieving/quenching the Spirit?

We know from clear Scripture that on the basis of faith in Christ, the believer possesses the Spirit. Acts 10, Gal 3:2,5 and other verses.
Once it's understood that when the Spirit comes to indwell a believer is permanent (Jhn 14:16), we also realize He never neglects to leave us as we are, but guides and enables us to grow in Christ (which is not growth in salvation, because it doesn't admit in degrees, but in our faith--only through His Word.
 
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JLB777

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Why don't you tell that to Jesus, who said in the clearest of words that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.


... if the follow Him.

Tell us what you believe “follow” means.


Can you follow someone you do not trust and obey?


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9



JLB
 
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JLB777

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This is what I said to Doug, not you.
"Since you believe that 'remain in Christ' refers to our sealing with the Holy Spirit, then you cannot believe Eph 1:13,14, because the sealing with the Spirit GUARANTEES the believer's inheritance for the day of redemption.

And you cannot explain how any of God's GUARANTEES can be broken. God keeps His promises.

Don't bother. Abiding refers to fellowship.

Yes, instructed to be in fellowship with Christ.

No human being has the power or authority to remove themselves from Christ. That is a very absurd idea. And totally unbiblical."

Where in the world do you get your ideas from? Where in my post above am I "pushing back so hard against obeying the Lord"??

Speaking of pushing back against the Lord, that is exactly what YOU are doing when you keep claiming that a saved person can end up in hell. Jesus doesn't allow that nonsense.

He said recipients of eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28. You need to believe what He said, and not push back against it so hard.


Nothing here about being "removed from Christ". In fact, Jesus said this BEFORE His own resurrection and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

So He couldn't have been speaking of being removed from Him, since NO believer had YET been sealed in Him.

You are not connecting the dots. Or more succinctly, you are not reading Scripture with discernment.


Using a metaphor to create your own doctines is not advised.

Rather, form your doctrinal ideas from clear Scripture, where metaphor and figures of speech are not used.


When Jesus spoke the words of John 15:1-7, NO ONE had YET been "in Christ". That was future.

So nothing of what you are posting is even relevant to Scripture.



God promises salvation to those who obey Him.


God promises eternal life to those who remain in Christ.


God promises eternal damnation to those who disobey Him.



He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36 NASB




eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7




JLB
 
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GDL

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It seems the 3 positions in this discussion are:

1) True belief is only a lasting/ongoing belief - thus temporary belief was never true belief - and salvation is only applied to true ongoing belief and thus never lost

2) True belief can become unbelief - thus temporary belief can be true belief - and salvation can be received and then lost

3) True belief can become unbelief - thus temporary belief can be true belief - and salvation can be received and never lost


Interesting (for me anyway):

#1 WordSword

#2 TibiasDad - Doug

#3 known to be Free Grace position


With no agreement as to what True (Biblical) Belief is, how will there ever be agreement on most Scriptures that speak of it, or on verb tenses used for "believe"? Is there truly any willingness to change a current position?
 
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TibiasDad

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You seem to have a knack for missing the point here. I never suggested what you seem to think I did. Here is the point: cults all believe that they must do something to "go to heaven". Your belief is salvation is by grace, but keeping your salvation REQUIRES you to maintain your faith, etc.

Do you assert that we must believe in order to be saved? Is that not a requirement? Can we be saved without believing? Is not believing something we must do?

What then is difference? If believing is a requirement to gain salvation, why would it not be a continual requirement? If believing is not a work in becoming a child of God, it is not a work to maintain being a child of God!

Doug
 
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GDL

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John3:18: The one who believes (or is believing) into / in / with respect to Him (Jesus – God’s Son – the Son of Man in context) is not condemned / judged, and / but the one who does not believe (or is not believing) into / in / with respect to Him is / has been condemned / judged already, (depending on the perfect verb emphasis being on the current state (“is”) or the past action (“has been”) – either way, the perfect is saying nothing beyond a current condition) because (cause of the condemnation / judgment is) he does not believe / has not believed (again depending on the perfect verb emphasis being on the current state (“does not”) or the past action (“has not”) – either way, the perfect is saying nothing beyond a current condition) into / in / with respect to the name of the only / uniquely begotten Son of God.

1) Some believe Biblical Belief can be temporary. Some believe Biblical Belief must be ongoing. The participles “believes,” and “does not believe” are present tense. How do we agree on translating them when we have different beliefs about Belief?

2) John uses the word “eis” (most simply “into”) instead of “en” (most simply “in”) – “believes eis Him.” Eis can mean the same as “en.” If we look at these 2 words spatially, eis is transitional & speaks of entering into. En simply means in, carrying the sense of within or inside. Eis can also have other meanings, such as “with respect to.” One of the things I find interesting in GJohn is how much detail John provides about the person and work of Jesus Christ. Before GJohn speaks of “belief” the first time (J1:7), this is what John has told us about Jesus Christ:

- Jesus is The Word

- Jesus pre-existed creation

- Jesus pre-existed with God

- Jesus was the pre-existing God

- Jesus was pre-existing in the beginning with God

- All things were made through Jesus

- Not one thing was made independent of Jesus

- Life, men’s light, was pre-existing in Jesus

- Jesus, The Light, shines in the darkness

I personally think John is trying to tell us something that we, in typical western, microwave style, just want to shelve, in order to cut to the chase (to our great detriment) about Belief & Jesus Christ. There is an abundance of content John provides with respect to Jesus Christ between each “believe” verse in GJohn. By 3:18 this content is already extensive.

3) The perfect tense “is / has been condemned/judged” and “does not believe / has not believed” is telling us nothing more here, than the judgement took place sometime in the past and exists at the time of it being applied in the eyes of the speaker. So, from this verse only, either translation & emphasis could be accurate: The person who does not believe is judged already – The person who has not believed has already been judged. As for “never believed” or “believed and then unbelieved,” both are inserted choices based upon differing personal beliefs.

4) I personally find fascinating the judgment as it’s explained in 3:19-20: Those whose works “were being” (imperfect tense = a video vs. a snapshot of what was happening when they did not believe) evil / worthless. These evil /worthless works are elaborated with a different word meaning low grade / base / inferior / low quality / morally substandard. Those doing /accomplishing such bad works simply do not want them exposed, so they love the darkness and hate the light, and don’t come to the light (believe Jesus is the Christ – the Light per J1), which will publicly expose them for what they are.

5) Since the judgment is explained, it seems to me:

a. If Biblical Faith is ongoing, then coming to the light means we remain in the light where our doing the truth (3:20) is ongoing.

b. If Biblical Faith is temporary, and salvation can be lost, then remaining in the light may not last, doing the Truth may not be ongoing (3:20), we may return to the worthless works and may stay there doing /accomplishing them again, and in doing so lose the salvation we had or could have had (which brings in the question of what the full scope of Biblical Salvation is).

c. If Biblical Faith is temporary, and salvation cannot be lost, then remaining in the light may not last, doing the Truth may not be ongoing (3:20), we may return to the worthless works and may stay there, and in doing so retain the salvation we had and still have.

Seems to me the there’s really no way to answer between the 3 from the language of J3:18. Nor is there a way to decide between “have never believed” vs. “have not believed” vs. “don’t believe.” I do agree with Doug that “never” is not contained in the perfect tense & could easily have been stated to make it clear. But that’s not always done in Scripture.

I know osas is under debate here, and surely looking like it won’t be resolved, but coming to the Light and then returning to doing / accomplishing evil / worthless / low grade / base / inferior / low quality / morally substandard works, wanting to keep them hidden in darkness, hating the Light – Jesus Christ who will expose them publicly, is not the description of a Christian – whether or not ever or never a Christian.

I don’t see J3:18 in itself resolving the osas debate. Neither did I see Acts16:31 resolve the debate. I did see Matt10:26-28 as stating against temporary faith for eternal life.

I also think I said a lot about what Biblical Faith has to be (abiding/remaining) for Eternal Life in post #648 and only Doug (as far as I know) took me up on it (and agreed).

And, I think JLB gets it:

God promises eternal life to those who remain in Christ.
 
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GDL

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Do you assert that we must believe in order to be saved? Is that not a requirement? Can we be saved without believing? Is not believing something we must do?

What then is difference? If believing is a requirement to gain salvation, why would it not be a continual requirement? If believing is not a work in becoming a child of God, it is not a work to maintain being a child of God!

Seems like sound logic. Based upon J3:23 & others, I'd add obedience to this logic - Faith-Obedience - we're commanded to believe, therefor our belief is obedience, therefore not a work.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Chapter 5 is a good choice of applicability to the growth issue, as I think it demonstrates, along with Chapter 6 that God always brings those who believe in Him to maturity, as He always brought His people back to His fellowship, which also shows unbroken union with the believers.
I must disagree with the statement that God "always brings believers to maturity". That means it is guaranteed. If that were true, there would be no need to even mention the issue of maturity. Or any warnings of straying.

I believe the Spirit will teach and enable every single believer to be conformed to the Father's "work" (Phl 2:13)
Yet, the teachings only occur WHEN a believer is filled with the Spirit, walking by the Spririt. Certainly not when a believer is grieving/quenching the Spirit. That's the point.

but there are always many who profess faith but do not have it
I believe this is a cop-out. Those who have professed faith but grieve/quench the Spirit are the ones who don't have it.

While our understanding of growth doctrine is immature, there will be some quenching and grieving of the Spirit, which will continue to lessen as we grow.
How about "IF IF IF we grow" instead?

But I do not believe those reborn (believers) willfully commit this wrong.
Ananias and Saphhira sure were willful. So was the incestuous believer in 1 Cor 5.

It's descriptive of those who are yet immature, and after being saved it's all about maturing in Christ by the Spirit.
That is the command.

Once it's understood that when the Spirit comes to indwell a believer is permanent (Jhn 14:16), we also realize He never neglects to leave us as we are, but guides and enables us to grow in Christ (which is not growth in salvation, because it doesn't admit in degrees, but in our faith--only through His Word.
The "growing in Christ" is a command, and the way to grow is given. But, believers must heed the commands and instructions.

Yet, many believers have no idea, because their pastors have no idea, how to do this.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said:
"Why don't you tell that to Jesus, who said in the clearest of words that recipients of eternal life shall never perish."
... if the follow Him.
Where did your "if" come from? It's not in v.27 or v.28. So quit making up stuff.

Tell us what you believe “follow” means.
Whatza matter. Did you tell Jesus, and just don't like His answer?

Again, there is no "if" in either verse. So quit making up stuff.
 
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FreeGrace2

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God promises salvation to those who obey Him.
If you define "obey" as "believe", then I agree. If you define "obey" as any kind of works, effort, or deeds, then I totally reject your claim.

God promises eternal life to those who remain in Christ.
No, He promises eternal life to those who believe in Christ.

And you STILL haven't proven your claim that a sealed believer can become unsealed and is no longer "in Christ". You're just making up stuff again.

God promises eternal damnation to those who disobey Him.
Actually, let's examine what Scripture says about condemnation (damnation):

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

So, as is quite clear here, damnation or condemnation is for those who "have not believed". Quite simple.

Once Belief, No Damnation. OBND

Or,
Once Belief, No Condemnation. OBNC

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7
Are you STILL trying to push the erroneous idea that people are even capable of "doing good", much less receiving eternal life on that basis?

If true, then Jesus died needlessly on the cross. That must be your conclusion, based on your theology.

In Rom 2:7 Paul was saying that only a life of total perfection (no sin) would receive eternal life. Which NO human being is capable of.

To prove this, he also wrote Rom 3:20 - Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

It should be obvious to everyone that perfectly "keeping the law" is tantamount to "patient endurance in doing good" from 2:7.

Yet, Paul made clear that no one is capable of doing that. And the law doesn't save.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said:
" I never suggested what you seem to think I did. Here is the point: cults all believe that they must do something to "go to heaven". Your belief is salvation is by grace, but keeping your salvation REQUIRES you to maintain your faith, etc."
Do you assert that we must believe in order to be saved?
Of course I do. I've been making that clear from the beginning.

Is that not a requirement? Can we be saved without believing? Is not believing something we must do?
I see where you're going with this. Here's the deal, Doug. There is a condition for being saved. It is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. That means taking God at His word about what He says our natural condition is (sinful), that we cannot save ourself, and that Christ, the Son of God, died for our sins on a cross, and that by trusting Him to save us, He does. But this condition for being saved has nothing to do with effort, works, or deeds. So don't go there.

What you keep missing here is your claim about having to continue to believe, even in spite of the many verses that prove that salvation is secured the MOMENT a person expresses saving faith in Christ. They are saved at that MOMENT. And the guarantee of never perishing applies to that MOMENT.

What then is difference? If believing is a requirement to gain salvation, why would it not be a continual requirement?
Because of the verses that show clearly that condemnation or damnation is based on "having not believed". Has nothing to do with having to keep on believing. And neither you or GDL have proven your erroneous claim about the PIA for 'believe'.

If believing is not a work in becoming a child of God, it is not a work to maintain being a child of God!
Doug
Believing is NEVER a work in the Bible. In fact, the apostle Paul clarified between works and faith in Rom 4:4,5
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

In v.4, Paul makes the point that wages for work is not a gift but an obligation.
In v.5 he contrasts "work" with "trusts" which is faith. Faith is credited as righteousness.

iow, you cannot work for righteousness. But, 1st Century Jews sure did.

Rom 9-
31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal.
32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.
 
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GDL

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God promises salvation to those who obey Him.

Agreed:

NKJ Hebrews 5:9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

NKJ 2 Thessalonians 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

NKJ 1 Peter 4:17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

NKJ Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"

Rom10:6 uses obedience & belief interchangeably. There is no Biblical Belief apart from obeying God
 
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GDL

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God promises eternal damnation to those who disobey Him.

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36 NASB

Agreed.

When we understand that Biblical Belief and obedience to God cannot be separated from one another (except to emphasize one or the other and that emphasis would typically be obedience), then this all becomes pretty simple. Biblical Belief is Faith-Obedience, which in the end is simply Faithfulness.

ἀπειθῶν is sometimes said to mean "disbelieve" & the lexicons do bring this out. But, the main definition is to disobey. FWIW, some time ago I went through all the verses that use this word, and I came out of that study seeing disobedience as the main meaning.

No Biblical Belief > condemnation/judgment/your word "damnation"
No Obedience to God > condemnation/judgment/your word "damnation"

John3:36 says this. So does the fact that Biblical Belief and Obedience to God are 2 sides of the same coin (so to speak).
 
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GDL

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ἀπειθῶν is sometimes said to mean "disbelieve" & the lexicons do bring this out. But, the main definition is to disobey. FWIW, some time ago I went through all the verses that use this word, and I came out of that study seeing disobedience as the main meaning

BTW, here is a good section of Scripture that uses a lot of meaningful words related to belief & unbelief. It shows us quite a bit about unbelief, and therefore about Biblical Belief. I'll highlight also where apeitheo is used:

NKJ Heb. 3:12-19 12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;

- "unbelief" is apistia. There is a word in Greek that specifically means "unbelief" and it's used here.
- Note the warning to Jewish Believers not to depart/withdraw/revolt from the living God in/by getting into unbelief

13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

- Sin (lawlessness, unrighteousness, in the end simply disobedience to God)

14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

- Believers are commanded to beware of falling into unbelief & to exhort each other so they don't become hardened through the deceitfulness of sin/lawlessness/unrighteousness/disobedience

- Believers are partners/sharers of The Christ IF INDEED (strengthened conditional saying Believers can fail) we hold fast until the end.

15 while it is said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion."

- In 3:13 sin can deceive and harden [Believers' hearts] . Now Believers are commanded to not harden their own hearts. Believers are actively involved & responsible in this.

- So far unbelief is tied to sin & now rebellion.

16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?

- active rebellion. BDAG includes disobedience as a meaning of this word

17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness?

-
Now God's anger against those who sinned

18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?

- Now disobedience - this is apeitheo

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

- unbelief = apistia again (same as 3:12) - so this section is bookended with apistia

SO:

1. There's no reason to use apeitheo to mean unbelief. apistia means unbelief. apeitheo means disobedience and it follows right after "sinned" which is ultimately disobedience to God
2. unbelief is correlated to: sin, rebellion, disobedience (Biblical Belief is exactly the opposite)
3. These verses warn Believers not to get into unbelief, which is correlated to sin, rebellion, disobedience.
4. These verses make being partners/partakers/sharers of Jesus Christ conditional on holding firm until the end and not getting deceived by sin to actively harden their hearts, rebel, sin, disobey God.

Some will say that all Israel who came out of the Exodus were saved. Saved in what respect? Does it mean they're all going to be in eternity with Eternal Life? Or did such a rebellion mean differently and it's thus used to warn Believers of departing/withdrawing/revolting from the Living God?

And what about the teaching about the Remnant? Meaningless re: who has & will have EL?

It's easy to just categorize such Scripture as just being hyperbole, or about discipline and loss of rewards, but this does not makes sense to others who don't so categorize, and who read the Scripture & let it speak for itself.
 
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