Temporal Salvation?

[FreeGrace2]

True, early in our conversion much of His fruit is absent in our walk, but I believe the fruit of the Spirit is in us, because it always accompanies Him (2Pe 1:3)

The Spirit is alwasys in the believer. But the fruit is manifest only when the believer is filled with the Spirit and walking by Him. But never when the believer grieves or quenches the Spirit.

and that it's only a matter time for Him to teach all reborn to appropriate or walk in Him (and it's not the walk that produces this new life but rather manifests it).

This sounds as though you think every believer will eventually be taught how to "walk in Him". If that were true, that would be evident in every life of the believer. But it isn't evident in every life. Some believers remain self centered their whole Christian life.

I know there are those who will claim this only proves that such people weren't really saved. To me, that's just a cop-out and avoidance of the truth.

This explains how one who is still immature in Christ can have the Spirit but has yet to learn to walk in Him (Gal 5:25), as it takes time for all initially following our conversion.

I'm not sure whether an immature believer has the Spirit, or is just a real moral person. Unbelievers and even outright atheists can live moral lives.

All we can observe is activity. We can't see the power source. Unbelievers act from their only power source; their willpower. Believer act from 1 of 2 power sources; their willpower, or the Holy Spirit's power.

We do unintentionally grieve and quench (but never "resist" - Act 7:51) the Spirit, as shown in Eph 4:29-32; 1Co 3:1), but this is only until we mature in Christ (Eph 4:15); and it should be understood that God is always "working" in everyone reborn, thus eventually bringing all believers to this maturity in Christ (Phl 2:13).

I obviously don't agree here. Of course believers intentionally grieve the Spirit. Every sin is a sin of choice. Regarding "quenching", that's a different story. I believe quenching has to do with believing the various lies of Satan, and being deceived. Like Eve was. She wanted to be as smart as God; that was the appeal of Satan. Her "intentions" were good, so to speak, but the underlying problem was still an intentional rebellion againt what God commanded.

I think this is a major problem with believers involved in "social justice" and other far left activities. They think they are doing good, when in reality, they are deceived by Satan's lies.

 

[TibiasDad]

One clarification, please. I'm probably asking you to repeat yourself, but I'd rather not go back through 600+ posts.

Maybe referring you to #604 would be the best way to ask this. Would you agree with any of the 3 positions there, or add another, or modify any?

I think you've said that one could believe & be given eternal life, but then fall away and lose it. Am I stating your position correctly, or not?

Thanks Doug.

I have nothing to add as to improvements of your three choices. I would affirm #2 as my position, so you are stating my position correctly.

Doug

 

[GDL]

1 Cor 3:10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Glad you're going through this. It's been mentioned before as a proof for salvation in the FG sense,

Whose work is being tested here?

NKJ 1 Cor. 3:9-10 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, you are God's building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.

 

[GDL]

I have nothing to add as to improvements of your three choices. I would affirm #2 as my position, so you are stating my position correctly.

Doug

Thought that to be the case. Best coming from you. Thanks!

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"I'll be glad to help you out here. The words "for the destruction of the flesh" is a clue. And contrasted with "may be saved on the day of the Lord". Connect the dots."

And again you display a total disregard for the Greek meaning of words and syntax.

I see that you are still having a problem with connecting the dots.

Sarx, meaning flesh, is different from Soma, meaning the physical body. Sarx is a figurative expression for the sinful nature, and Olethros , destruction or ruin, so the intent of meaning is to bring the sinful nature to ruin.

And, just guess how the sinful nature is brought to ruin. Physical death. That's where the sin nature is destroyed. At the resurrection, the believer has a new body. Bingo.

As for " that the spirit may be saved", the subjunctive reveals the hopefulness of expectation that these two apostates might return and be saved in the end, but this is not a certainty!

The Greek word for 'save' is no different than what it means in the English. The basic meaning is to "deliver, rescue, save...from danger". Now, the danger can be an army, and David used "saved" and "salvation" most of the time.

Regarding the incestuous idiot, the meaning refers to a restoration of his spirit back to health. In fact, 'sozo' is used many times to mean being healed or to be healthy. Matt 9:21-22, Mark 5:23, 28, 34, 6:56, 10:52, Luke 7:50, 8:36, 48, 50, 17:19, 18:42, Acts 4:9, 14:9, James 5:15. So Paul's desire was that his spirit will be healthy.

So the real meaning has nothing to do with physical death of the body (soma) but that the ruining of the sinful nature

Yes, Paul wanted this man's spirit to be healthy, as it clearly was not at that point.

that reaching the end the flesh's desires and finding only ruinous emptiness, will result in repentance and thus ultimate salvation!
Doug

No, it's already obvious that Paul contrasted this idiot with unbelievers, from v.1. Or Gentile heathen.

 

[FreeGrace2]

And when are you going to realize that nobody disputes "that recipients of eternal life shall never perish"?

Hardly! JLB flatly claims that recipients of eternal life CAN perish.

And the entire Arminian doctrine about losing salvation supports that statement.

How can you be so unaware of your own theology?

I guess only because you don't believe John 5:24 and 6:47 that says eternal life is a present tense possession of those who believe.

So, you either believe John 5:24 and 6:47 but don't believe John 10:28, or you don't believe John 5:24 and 6:47 but do believe 10:28.

Can't have it both ways.

The entire point of discussion is who is the recipient of eternal life

We've already been over this. When a person places their full trust in Christ for salvation (which we call 'saving faith') from that MOMENT, they possess eternal life.

Not really a difficult fact to understand.

All believers have been given eternal life. And they received it WHEN they believed.

So, from the MOMENT they believed, they possess eternal life and shall never perish.

Eternal security could not be explained any more clearly and precisely than that.

But, because you so strongly disagree with me, please prove that believers AREN'T given eternal life the MOMENT they believe, but rather some time subsequent to their moment of saving faith. And use Scripture, please.

one who has ever believed, regardless of the lifestyle choices after the fact, or those who persevere in their belief and are actually believing in the end!

Again, your challenge is to PROVE from Scripture that the gift of eternal life is given subsequent to saving faith.

Oh, and please read 1 John 5:11.

It is a strawman argument to say we do not believe that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.
Doug

Nope. It's part of your contradictory theology with the Bible.

I hope you will at least try to prove that eternal life is given some time AFTER the moment of belief in Christ for salvation.

That will prove interesting.

 

[FreeGrace2]

And what do you think "upon the quality of our fruitfulness" is referring to. In the fire of judgement wood, hay and stubble will not survive, but only things built with quality materials upon the foundation of Christ.

1 Cor 3:10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Doug

I have no idea what your point might be. But I know this: it is the quality of each person's work that will be judged at the Bema. 2 Cor 5:10 says the same thing.

And some will be rewarded, and some will have no reward, but will be saved.

That goes against much of what I read from Arminians.

 

[TibiasDad]

I said, "So the real meaning has nothing to do with physical death of the body (soma) but that the ruining of the sinful nature."

To which you replied,

Yes, Paul wanted this man's spirit to be healthy, as it clearly was not at that point.

but earlier in this post you said "And, just guess how the sinful nature is brought to ruin. Physical death. That's where the sin nature is destroyed. At the resurrection, the believer has a new body. Bingo."

So you say that you agree with me that it has nothing to do with physical death (which is what I take the "yes" in your response to mean) and at the same time say that it is taking about physical death! (Despite the fact that Sarx is not a reference to the physical body, and death is never mentioned!)

So which is it? You are talking out of both of your mouth!

Doug

 

[WordSword]

I asked:
"Will will ANY Arminian quote a verse that actually teaches this idea?"

I am referring to biblical support for the loss of salvation. If that were possible, why wouldn't the Bible be absolutely crystal clear about it?

You're the first believer on the 12 sites I share with that asked this question! I believe the Bible (esp. the NT) was written in a way that will always require seeking God's intention over ours. I attempted to address this in the article "Prying thoughts," within the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs.

But, as I challenged, why aren't there any such verses?

This is something I've already posted to attempt to address this question: What the Lord Jesus means by “believeth in Me” (Jhn 11:25, 26; 12:46) intends genuine faith, not just a said faith in profession only (Jam 2:18; Mat 15:8), but is manifested by an unceasing walk in the fruit of the Spirit in and through those reborn. Therefore to believe in God is different from believing in the things of this life only, as one cannot truly profess faith in Him and latter say he disbelieves, which shows to be a worldly and natural faith of man, and not the faith only from the Spirit (Gal 5:22).

My point is that these truly saved believing Pharisee party people were pushing a false doctrine regarding salvation. They would have fit the reference in 1 John 2:19.

I think this passage describes those who were unbelievers. The new Christians that were of the Pharisees didn't understand yet the difference between the Law and Christianity. They even thought they could remain a Pharisee but were yet ignorant of the difference, of which they finally informed (Act 15:24).

 

[WordSword]

At the end of the analysis for me, it came to learning the original languages

That's why I've been using Gill for the last 20 years or so. "He mastered the Latin Classics and learned Greek by age 11:
John Gill (theologian) - Wikipedia

 

[WordSword]

Of course believers intentionally grieve the Spirit. Every sin is a sin of choice.

I'm convinced that God "works" in everyone reborn (believer) to "desire and do His good pleasure" (Phl 2:13). This leaves no reason for suspecting that such a one would intentionally go against this "work," considering this is what the "work" guards against; always seeking God's will over our own.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked:
"Will will ANY Arminian quote a verse that actually teaches this idea?"

I am referring to biblical support for the loss of salvation. If that were possible, why wouldn't the Bible be absolutely crystal clear about it?

You're the first believer on the 12 sites I share with that asked this question!

I wonder why the Calvinists never thought of that question when dealing with Arminians.

I believe the Bible (esp. the NT) was written in a way that will always require seeking God's intention over ours.

I believe the Bible is crystal clear about all matters relating to salvation.

I said:
"But, as I challenged, why aren't there any such verses?"

This is something I've already posted to attempt to address this question: What the Lord Jesus means by “believeth in Me” (Jhn 11:25, 26; 12:46) intends genuine faith, not just a said faith in profession only (Jam 2:18; Mat 15:8)

I would say you are just making all this up, since there isn't anywhere in the Bible that warns of "faith in profession only". That idea is found only in the heads of people.

but is manifested by an unceasing walk in the fruit of the Spirit in and through those reborn.

There is no such thing as "an unceasing walk". That's why Paul commands believers to be filled with the Spirit, to walk by the Spirit, and to NOT grieve/quench the Spirit.

Therefore to believe in God is different from believing in the things of this life only, as one cannot truly profess faith in Him and latter say he disbelieves, which shows to be a worldly and natural faith of man, and not the faith only from the Spirit (Gal 5:22).

I am sensing that you don't have any verses that clearly state that salvation can be lost.

I think this passage describes those who were unbelievers. The new Christians that were of the Pharisees didn't understand yet the difference between the Law and Christianity. They even thought they could remain a Pharisee but were yet ignorant of the difference, of which they finally informed (Act 15:24).

Yep. No verses that clearly communicate any kind of warning about losing salvation, for any reason.

Even though Arminians seem to have "plenty of reasons" that a person could lose their salvation.

You haven't disappointed.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Of course believers intentionally grieve the Spirit. Every sin is a sin of choice."

I'm convinced that God "works" in everyone reborn (believer) to "desire and do His good pleasure" (Phl 2:13).

Sounds as though this is guaranteed, or automatic. They why all the warnings and commands about obedience then?

This leaves no reason for suspecting that such a one would intentionally go against this "work," considering this is what the "work" guards against; always seeking God's will over our own.

So David didn't "intentionally" rape and then murder to cover up the rape.

Right. Sure.

 

[GDL]

That's why I've been using Gill for the last 20 years or so. "He mastered the Latin Classics and learned Greek by age 11:

Definitely credentials to be considered & appreciated. But still with a caveat or more:

- The Spirit of God works in humanity to bring about understanding and then humanity argues & debates & kills & does whatever humans do against each other until something becomes at least somewhat of standard called orthodoxy. One of the major doctrines of The Faith (don't recall which specific one & don't want to try to dig out old notes) took in excess of 500 years to work out.

- Knowledge of languages is truly beneficial in my opinion and experience, but members of every(?) camp have and have had language scholars.

- In my own experience, while sitting through advanced Greek classes, diagramming & outlining & translating down to the proverbial Nth degree, when I would say to all in the class after some hard work in the Text, OK, now we know what the language says, we know the grammar & the grammatical structure of every clause here, so, what does this section of Scripture mean? At times there were no answers. At times there were speculations. At times possibly agreement by a few or more. The moral of the story - God enlightens when God enlightens.

Other moral of the story, you have favored commentators. So do others who disagree with your interpretations and favored choice. It's just where we are in God's history. The unity in Eph4 is corporate ("we all"). Either there is a group existing on the planet, even in different places & not knowing each other, that has most of it right, or our 30,000+ denominations (or whatever that number is now) reveal a lot of actual unbelief vs. belief, and/or tremendous disunity. Either way, we seem to have a ways to go.

I've attempted to boil this forum topic down to 3 points of view. I'm still uncertain what your view is and don't want to be the one to say what it is - I took it as #1 at first - then you said #3. I've seen Doug's precise answer. I know the Free Grace choice is normally #3.

I'm absolutely a proponent of the knowledge and use of the original languages. I also know it's not the end of the debate.

 

[WordSword]

I am referring to biblical support for the loss of salvation. If that were possible, why wouldn't the Bible be absolutely crystal clear about it?

Actually it isn't possible to lose salvation, there are just passages that appear so, like "depart from the faith," "fallen from grace," etc.

there isn't anywhere in the Bible that warns of "faith in profession only". That idea is found only in the heads of people.

This is what Jesus meant by "they honoureth Me with their lips (by professing and confessing falsely); but their heart is far from Me" (Mat 15:8). James said the same thing in 2:18. "A may may say . . ." Profess and confess are the same thing in the Greek, such as in Tit 1:16:
G3670 - homologeō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

There is no such thing as "an unceasing walk"

True for those whose walk and profession are genuine, but all hypocrites and apostates will eventually cease from their false profession and walk.

 

[WordSword]

Other moral of the story, you have favored commentators. So do others who disagree with your interpretations and favored choice.

I find that most commentators agree with most Biblical teachings. Especially concerning essential doctrine, which is related to receiving salvation; and there's nearly minimal disagreement between them concerning spiritual growth doctrines of the Epistles (Overview - Bible Commentaries - Read and study from over 110 commentaries for FREE!). I primarily use Gill, Barnes and Geneva.

I'm still uncertain what your view is

I'm a staunch proponent of believing that faith and salvation are permanent!

 

[GDL]

Actually it isn't possible to lose salvation, there are just passages that appear so, like "depart from the faith," "fallen from grace," etc.

Sections of Scripture like Heb6:6 & John15:6 have been touched on from both perspectives - losing salvation & simply discipline of the believer (and maybe even being non-believers). What's your thinking & can you explain beyond what they just "appear" to be saying. Quoting Gill or any other source you agree with is fine.

Thanks.

 

[GDL]

I'm a staunch proponent of believing that faith and salvation are permanent!

Which # - #3 as you said before - or #1 (which is what you seem to be saying in the quote just above, and what you seem to have been saying previously in using "appear" & "hyperbole")?

Here are the points again to make this easier:

It seems the 3 positions in this discussion are:

1) True belief is only a lasting/ongoing belief - thus temporary belief was never true belief - and salvation is only applied to true ongoing belief and thus never lost

2) True belief can become unbelief - thus temporary belief can be true belief - and salvation can be received and then lost

3) True belief can become unbelief - thus temporary belief can be true belief - and salvation can be received and never lost

 

[GDL]

(Overview - Bible Commentaries - Read and study from over 110 commentaries for FREE!). I primarily use Gill, Barnes and Geneva.

Thanks for the link.

 

[TibiasDad]

Hardly! JLB flatly claims that recipients of eternal life CAN perish.

And the entire Arminian doctrine about losing salvation supports that statement.

How can you be so unaware of your own theology?

For the 400th time, only those believing have eternal life. If you don't believe at any point in time (and by this in mean that if we deliberately abandon the faith and repudiate it) you do not have eternal life. Despite your ill conceived attempts to say otherwise, the Greek does not foster or otherwise support your assertions that faith is a matter of one and done theology! And the overwhelming message of scripture as well as common sense and experience cannot be ignored in opposition to your claims.

We believe and assert that only those who are actually believing have the hope of eternal life, and that the point of eternal life becoming a reality is, generally speaking, death or the return of Christ; thus we must be actively believing at that point to enter into life eternal.

Moreover, eternal life with God cannot be properly "possessed" until eternity. As you are so fond of quoting, yet so reluctant to think through the full import of, the Holy Spirit is a "deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory" (Eph 1:13). Note that it is an "inheritance" that does not become ours until the final "redemption" of those who are God's possession (that meaning the Genitive case that I earlier corrected you on and you have ignored). We possess the promise of, and therefore the hope of eternal life (1 John 2:25, Titus 1:2, 3:7, Heb 9:15)

And another point of clarification, and I am speaking for myself at this point, all life, in the sense of viable existence, is eternal for all human beings once created. Eternal life is not eternal existence, but rather the state of the existence in relationship to our standing with God! Those pleasing to God have "life" and those displeasing to God have death, but we will never cease to exist regardless of which state of relationship we stand with God.


Doug