Temporal Salvation?

[FreeGrace2]

This is what I said to Doug, not you.
"Since you believe that 'remain in Christ' refers to our sealing with the Holy Spirit, then you cannot believe Eph 1:13,14, because the sealing with the Spirit GUARANTEES the believer's inheritance for the day of redemption.

And you cannot explain how any of God's GUARANTEES can be broken. God keeps His promises.

Don't bother. Abiding refers to fellowship.

Yes, instructed to be in fellowship with Christ.

No human being has the power or authority to remove themselves from Christ. That is a very absurd idea. And totally unbiblical."

Why are you pushing back so hard against obeying the Lord?

Where in the world do you get your ideas from? Where in my post above am I "pushing back so hard against obeying the Lord"??

Speaking of pushing back against the Lord, that is exactly what YOU are doing when you keep claiming that a saved person can end up in hell. Jesus doesn't allow that nonsense.

He said recipients of eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28. You need to believe what He said, and not push back against it so hard.

Here is the scripture that instructs us we can indeed be removed from Christ.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2

Nothing here about being "removed from Christ". In fact, Jesus said this BEFORE His own resurrection and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

So He couldn't have been speaking of being removed from Him, since NO believer had YET been sealed in Him.

You are not connecting the dots. Or more succinctly, you are not reading Scripture with discernment.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

Using a metaphor to create your own doctines is not advised.

Rather, form your doctrinal ideas from clear Scripture, where metaphor and figures of speech are not used.

If a person who is in Christ, is later removed from Christ, do you believe they continue to have eternal life remaining in them?

When Jesus spoke the words of John 15:1-7, NO ONE had YET been "in Christ". That was future.

So nothing of what you are posting is even relevant to Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

JLB777 said: ↑
Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

If a person who is in Christ, is later removed from Christ, do you believe they continue to have eternal life remaining in them?

Seems simple.

Except Jesus said John 15:1-7 BEFORE His resurrection and the giving of the Holy Spirit, who would come to indwell believers and SEAL them, as a GUARANTEE of the believer's inheritance for the day of redemption. Eph 1:14

But go ahead and ignore what Paul wrote.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Regarding Luke 8:13

Though "appears to believe" is not in the text, the thought is intended.

Another eisegetical opinion!

“Believe for a while” is an exaggeration (hyperbole) of having a nonexistent faith because the fruit of "faith" from the Spirit (Gal 5:22) is never temporary.

More eisegetical opinion. Paul soundly refutes this notion from his various commands regarding the Holy Spirit.

In Eph 4:30 he commands believers to be filled with the Spirit. Something believers are supposed to do.
In Ephesians 4:30 he commands believers to NOT grieve the Spirit. This is clearly NOT fruit.

In Gal 5:16 he commands believers to walk by the Spirit. Again, something believers are supposed to do.
In 1 Thess 5:19 he commands believers to NOT quench the Spirit. Again, something clearly NOT fruit.

So, clearly, the "fruit of the Spirit" is NOT automatic nor guaranteed, as you insinuate. Rather, it can even be absent from the believer's life, IF they DO grieve/quench the Spirit, rather than be filled/walk by means of the Spirit.

 

[GDL]

This is exactly how I see it, and I think is well put.

Thanks for the responses & comments. Much appreciated.

It seems the 3 positions in this discussion are:

1) True belief is only a lasting/ongoing belief - thus temporary belief was never true belief - and salvation is only applied to true ongoing belief and thus never lost

2) True belief can become unbelief - thus temporary belief can be true belief - and salvation can be received and then lost

3) True belief can become unbelief - thus temporary belief can be true belief - and salvation can be received and never lost

It seems you see #1 as the truth and you see this, at least in part, as you've explained, by applying the words "appear" and "hyperbole" to the phrase "believe for a while" (Luke8:13).

If you see anything you disagree with, I'll leave it for you to correct or modify or add to.

 

[GDL]

The OSAS narrative that Freegrace is promoting is a doctrine of demons, and has its roots in the doctrine that the Serpent taught Eve in the garden.

Was wondering when someone would say this. You're not the first to do so and likely not the last.

Of course, in all fairness, some from each camp typically end up saying this or something similar re: each other camp's interpretations.

 

[WordSword]

I asked:
"Will will ANY Arminian quote a verse that actually teaches this idea?"

If you're referring to the accepted concepts of "necessary inference," "metaphors and "hyperbolic expressions," they are used by the Bible commentator community; and it's common knowledge that most contemporary Bible-studying believers do not refer to this community but attempt only their own interpretations.

Your opinion is NOT found in the verse. Acts 15 is an example of actual believers who believed false doctrine.

I think you're referring to the recently converted Pharisees (Act 15:5), they were being instructed not to attempt to mix Judaism with Christianity (vs 19, 24).

I did not misunderstand your statement. From #574, you said this:
"If one appears to profess the narrow way and eventually ceases to profess it, this manifests he never chose to profess genuinely."

This is one of the difficulties of internet communication, occasionally getting mixed up with what each said. I didn't say, If anyone "genuinely believes," but, If one "thinks they genuinely believe." See the difference?

 

[WordSword]

Thanks for the responses & comments. Much appreciated.

It seems the 3 positions in this discussion are:

1) True belief is only a lasting/ongoing belief - thus temporary belief was never true belief - and salvation is only applied to true ongoing belief and thus never lost

2) True belief can become unbelief - thus temporary belief can be true belief - and salvation can be received and then lost

3) True belief can become unbelief - thus temporary belief can be true belief - and salvation can be received and never lost

It seems you see #1 as the truth and you see this, at least in part, as you've explained, by applying the words "appear" and "hyperbole" to the phrase "believe for a while" (Luke8:13).

If you see anything you disagree with, I'll leave it for you to correct or modify or add to.

It's okay, but you repeated #2 and 3#, and of course you know I oppose them.

 

[GDL]

It's okay, but you repeated #2 and 3#, and of course you know I oppose them.

Read #2 & 3 again in entirety. They differ.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It seems the 3 positions in this discussion are:

1) True belief is only a lasting/ongoing belief - thus temporary belief was never true belief - and salvation is only applied to true ongoing belief and thus never lost

2) True belief can become unbelief - thus temporary belief can be true belief - and salvation can be received and then lost

3) True belief can become unbelief - thus temporary belief can be true belief - and salvation can be received and never lost

This is a good summarization of the discussion on this thread.

#1 cannot be true, because of what the Bible says in clear words.

Luke 8:13 - Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. Nothing here about the 'belief' not being real belief, or losing salvation for a temporary belief.

Acts 11:23 - When he arrived and saw what the grace of God had done, he was glad and encouraged them all to remain true to the Lord with all their hearts. If salvation could be lost, this would have been a perfect verse to make that point. But, it doesn't.

Acts 14:22 - strengthening the disciples and encouraging them to remain true to the faith. “We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God,” they said. If salvation could b elost, this would be another perfect verse to make that point. But, it doesn't either.

#2 cannot be true, because there are NO verses that make the point that if belief ceases, then salvation ceases.

#3 is correct, because Jesus said believers possess (PIA) eternal life in John 5:24 and 6:47. And John reiterates the fact in 1 John 5:11 and 13.

 

[FreeGrace2]

JLB said:
The OSAS narrative that Freegrace is promoting is a doctrine of demons, and has its roots in the doctrine that the Serpent taught Eve in the garden.

Was wondering when someone would say this. You're not the first to do so and likely not the last.

I'll tell you the same thing I told him: Go tell that to Jesus, who clearly taught that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked:
"Will will ANY Arminian quote a verse that actually teaches this idea?"

If you're referring to the accepted concepts of "necessary inference," "metaphors and "hyperbolic expressions," they are used by the Bible commentator community; and it's common knowledge that most contemporary Bible-studying believers do not refer to this community but attempt only their own interpretations.

I am referring to biblical support for the loss of salvation. If that were possible, why wouldn't the Bible be absolutely crystal clear about it? But, as I challenged, why aren't there any such verses?

I think you're referring to the recently converted Pharisees (Act 15:5), they were being instructed not to attempt to mix Judaism with Christianity (vs 19, 24).

My point is that these truly saved believing Pharisee party people were pushing a false doctrine regarding salvation. They would have fit the reference in 1 John 2:19.

This is one of the difficulties of internet communication, occasionally getting mixed up with what each said. I didn't say, If anyone "genuinely believes," but, If one "thinks they genuinely believe." See the difference?

Of course. And I pointed out the difference to the poster who posted.

 

[GDL]

If you're referring to the accepted concepts of "necessary inference," "metaphors and "hyperbolic expressions," they are used by the Bible commentator community; and it's common knowledge that most contemporary Bible-studying believers do not refer to this community but attempt only their own interpretations.

FWIW, IMO commentaries are virtually endless and based in each camp - some providing information on and analyzing differing views. From commentaries I went more to journal articles, which are published frequently as they are brief compared to commentaries. One of my language professors ended up telling me he refers (at that point years ago) to commentaries mostly to see what not to think. At the end of the analysis for me, it came to learning the original languages (ending up with mainly a focus on Greek), doing my own work, and not wanting to be influenced by a commentary. I will refer to some, and to articles periodically to get other's views.

With that said, I do have a few commentaries that I think are virtually priceless and there are articles on such things as viticulture that provided helpful information on the vine & branch illustration that I may never have thought to look for.

There are a lot of tools, but for me nothing is as rewarding as sitting at His feet with His Text analyzing with His help what He says & means.

 

[WordSword]

So, clearly, the "fruit of the Spirit" is NOT automatic nor guaranteed, as you insinuate. Rather, it can even be absent from the believer's life, IF they DO grieve/quench the Spirit, rather than be filled/walk by means of the Spirit.

True, early in our conversion much of His fruit is absent in our walk, but I believe the fruit of the Spirit is in us, because it always accompanies Him (2Pe 1:3), and that it's only a matter time for Him to teach all reborn to appropriate or walk in Him (and it's not the walk that produces this new life but rather manifests it). This explains how one who is still immature in Christ can have the Spirit but has yet to learn to walk in Him (Gal 5:25), as it takes time for all initially following our conversion.

We do unintentionally grieve and quench (but never "resist" - Act 7:51) the Spirit, as shown in
Eph 4:29-32; 1Co 3:1), but this is only until we mature in Christ (Eph 4:15); and it should be understood that God is always "working" in everyone reborn, thus eventually bringing all believers to this maturity in Christ (Phl 2:13).

 

[WordSword]

Read #2 & 3 again in entirety. They differ.

You're correct and thanks for the catch. It's obvious I believe 3#.

 

[GDL]

You're correct and thanks for the catch. It's obvious I believe 3#.

#3 or #1?

If belief then falling away is hyperbole and appearance only, then it's not #3.

 

[TibiasDad]

I'll be glad to help you out here. The words "for the destruction of the flesh" is a clue. And contrasted with "may be saved on the day of the Lord". Connect the dots.

And again you display a total disregard for the Greek meaning of words and syntax. Sarx, meaning flesh, is different from Soma, meaning the physical body. Sarx is a figurative expression for the sinful nature, and Olethros , destruction or ruin, so the intent of meaning is to bring the sinful nature to ruin.

As for " that the spirit may be saved", the subjunctive reveals the hopefulness of expectation that these two apostates might return and be saved in the end, but this is not a certainty!

So the real meaning has nothing to do with physical death of the body (soma) but that the ruining of the sinful nature, that reaching the end the flesh's desires and finding only ruinous emptiness, will result in repentance and thus ultimate salvation!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Why don't you tell that to Jesus, who said in the clearest of words that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

And when are you going to realize that nobody disputes "that recipients of eternal life shall never perish"? The entire point of discussion is who is the recipient of eternal life, one who has ever believed, regardless of the lifestyle choices after the fact, or those who persevere in their belief and are actually believing in the end! It is a strawman argument to say we do not believe that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Doug

 

[GDL]

And when are you going to realize that nobody disputes "that recipients of eternal life shall never perish"? The entire point of discussion is who is the recipient of eternal life, one who has ever believed, regardless of the lifestyle choices after the fact, or those who persevere in their belief and are actually believing in the end! It is a strawman argument to say we do not believe that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

One clarification, please. I'm probably asking you to repeat yourself, but I'd rather not go back through 600+ posts.

Maybe referring you to #604 would be the best way to ask this. Would you agree with any of the 3 positions there, or add another, or modify any?

I think you've said that one could believe & be given eternal life, but then fall away and lose it. Am I stating your position correctly, or not?

Thanks Doug.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FWIW, IMO commentaries are virtually endless and based in each camp - some providing information on and analyzing differing views. From commentaries I went more to journal articles, which are published frequently as they are brief compared to commentaries. One of my language professors ended up telling me he refers (at that point years ago) to commentaries mostly to see what not to think. At the end of the analysis for me, it came to learning the original languages (ending up with mainly a focus on Greek), doing my own work, and not wanting to be influenced by a commentary. I will refer to some, and to articles periodically to get other's views.

Of course.

With that said, I do have a few commentaries that I think are virtually priceless and there are articles on such things as viticulture that provided helpful information on the vine & branch illustration that I may never have thought to look for.

Because they agree with your own view?

There are a lot of tools, but for me nothing is as rewarding as sitting at His feet with His Text analyzing with His help what He says & means.

Really, the only way to go.

 

[TibiasDad]

And it IS about receiving a reward. btw, it seems you are giving another pass at works of "wood, hay and stubble", that will be burned up. Why is that?

And what do you think "upon the quality of our fruitfulness" is referring to. In the fire of judgement wood, hay and stubble will not survive, but only things built with quality materials upon the foundation of Christ.

1 Cor 3:10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Doug