Taking questions on Embedded Age Creation

[Gracchus]

Precisely. Christianity's supposed True Christians[sup]TM[/sup] are its greatest nemesis.

Funny how that is.

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"He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool shall be servant to the wise of heart." --- KJV Proverbs 11:29

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[Mike Elphick]

I'm not an 'ancient Hebrew', Mike --- I'm a 21st Century man.

Are you telling me that ancient Hebrew's had AV's knowledge of the universe? Or maybe you mean they had God's knowledge of the universe?

And irregardless of what the ancient Hebrews thought about the universe, God made His amanuenses write it correctly, or He wouldn't have preserved it.

Are you telling me that the Hebrew word for "firmament" is NOT "raqiya`" and is NOT derived from the Hebrew raqa, meaning "beaten out" — to spread material by hammering?

The historical evidence .... shows that the raqiac was originally conceived of as being solid and not a merely atmospheric expanse. The grammatical evidence from the OT ... reflects and confirms this conception of solidity. The basic historical fact that defines the meaning of raqiac in Genesis 1 is simply this: all peoples in the ancient world thought of the sky as solid. This concept did not begin with the Greeks.

That's from The Firmament and the Water Above, by Paul Seely a Christian scholar and well-known expert on Genesis.

They didn't have to agree with it, they just had to write it.

The point is that Genesis 1:7, and the other verses you quoted, are not out to teach us about the physical nature of the sky, but to tell us about the nature of its creator using the language and cosmology of the day.

 

[Mike Elphick]

I don't --- Adam did.

In fact, he's the only man on earth who did.

Adam certainly had a history. He was formed out of dust made six days previously, which, according to you, had been artificially aged (for no good reason) by so many billion years. Only then did he have his spirit blown into him by God. Those things took time. Genesis 1 never states the creation events took place INSTANTLY, they took time, not much time, but time nevertheless. And the passage of time means history.

Adam may have been the only man on Earth who had embedded age, but all the other animals and plants must logically have had different amounts of age embedded at creation as well. Plants and animals came before Adam so these were the first 'embeddees' with Adam and Eve trailing in last.

 

[Mike Elphick]

AV: we're still waiting for you to explain why you would escort Gosse from your church for explaining his Omphalos hypothesis.

Please tell us what it is you find so objectionable?

 

[BananaSlug]

What fossils?

Show me fossils in Genesis 1.

That doesn't matter. You still need to be able to answer these questions despite the lack of mention of fossils in Genesis 1. Genesis 1 doesn't mention dinosaurs either, nor does it mention atoms, or radiation, or many other phenomena.

If "embedded age" is "maturity without history" then your inability to answer the questions show that you really don't know what you are talking about. I'll post them again for you, considering these questions are actually important to your little "embedded age" idea...

So how is C14 dating a bone to 12,000 years actually different from K-Ar dating a rock when scientists are using the same concept for both methods?

Why would a bone have 12,000 years of age in the first place? Did God put it there? If not, who did?

How does a fossil get into a rock that is 250 million years old?

How does a limestone layer get wedged between a 10 million year old layer of rock and a 5 million year old layer of rock? Based on your idea, God embedded the age into those two layers during creation. But how exactly did that limestone get in there? Limestone is made of the shells of millions of dead organisms and often has the bones of other aquatic animals. How exactly did it get between two layers of solid, embedded-age rock?

If "embedded age" is "maturity without history" what exact do all of these fossils mean?

Are you going to answer any of these or simply ignore them?

 

[AV1611VET]

AV: we're still waiting for you to explain why you would escort Gosse from your church for explaining his Omphalos hypothesis.

See how your Telephone Post makes you sound so innocent, Mike? And makes us look bad?

I've recently noticed than in you guys' zeal to make us look bad, you "telephone" the Bible and our posts.

Such Telephone Words (and yes, I'm capitalizing) as "poof" and "magic" and "murder" do not escape my notice.

Here's what I said, that you telephoned:

If Gosse came to our church and started spreading that Omphalos stuff, and refused to stop, he'd find himself escorted out.

 

[AV1611VET]

That doesn't matter.

Good --- I stopped reading right here.

If you can't show me fossils in Genesis 1, please don't show me fossils at all and think I'll be interested enough to reply.

 

[Psudopod]

Good --- I stopped reading right here.

If you can't show me fossils in Genesis 1, don't show me fossils at all.

Why not? The fossils are there now, even if they weren't there in Genesis one. When did they arrive, how did they arrive, and why do we find them in the order that we do?

 

[thaumaturgy]

Why not? The fossils are there now, even if they weren't there in Genesis one. When did they arrive, how did they arrive, and why do we find them in the order that we do?

This is an exceedingly important point, AV.

When did God "make up" the fossils? Can God continue to embed age in things? Would he make something today that has embedded age? If so, why? If not why not?

It is important to understand this because otherwise we could be "fooled" into thinking something is older than it actually is. And the only being who would know is the one responsible for the embedding.

 

[Mike Elphick]

[Q

AV: we're still waiting for you to explain why you would escort Gosse from your church for explaining his Omphalos hypothesis.

See how your Telephone Post makes you sound so innocent, Mike? And makes us look bad?

How can a simple question make ME sound innocent. Innocent of what? I don't understand.

I've recently noticed than in you guys' zeal to make us look bad, you "telephone" the Bible and our posts.

Such Telephone Words (and yes, I'm capitalizing) as "poof" and "magic" and "murder" do not escape my notice.

What the heck is a Telephone Post? And where, AV, have I EVER used the words "poof" and "murder"? I have NOT!!!! Please take that back (or I'll get an administrator to do it for you).

Here's what I said, that you telephoned:

If Gosse came to our church and started spreading that Omphalos stuff, and refused to stop, he'd find himself escorted out.

No, young man, I'm asking you why you would have requested him to stop in the first place. Please answer this simple question (for the fourth time of asking).

 

[Freodin]

See AV.

See AV run.

See AV weasel out of answering just another question.


Come on, folks! Can´t you see that this thread is called "TAKING question on Embedded Age Creation"?

He just takes them. He is not required to answer them.

 

[AV1611VET]

What the heck is a Telephone Post?

It's a post where someone says something, then someone else repeats what you said, but in different terminology.

Like the Telephone Game, where you say something to someone, and they say it to someone else, and by the time it gets to the last person, the story is completely changed.

An excellent example is God telling Moses to kill every man, woman, child and animal in Numbers 32.

Later, someone complains that God told Moses to murder every man, woman, and child.

Still later, God has ordered genocide on the population.

And finally, God is accused of ordering infanticide.

And all the while, pleas from us to take the context into consideration, the dispensation into consideration, the fact that Moses is at war, etc., fall on deaf ears.

And Pharaoh is an even better example.

Despite the fact that he is slowly and methodically exterminating the Jews, it means absolutely nothing to those who are hell-bent on showing God in a bad light.

I believe God has opened my eyes to this.

And where, AV, have I EVER used the words "poof" and "murder"? I have NOT!!!! Please take that back (or I'll get an administrator to do it for you).

I said 'you guys' --- (you know who you are).

I'm not going to sit and name names in every post.

No, young man, I'm asking you why you would have requested him to stop in the first place. Please answer this simple question (for the fourth time of asking).

Where, old man, did I say I would request him to stop?

People have come into our church, even joined it, and started in with what they think we need.

We need Promise Keepers, we need the Emmaus Walk, we need to stop preaching "once saved, always saved", we need this seminar, we need that conference, we need this weight-loss program, you need to start wearing this, you need to stop wearing that, etc.

And even though they mean well, after a while of this, they need to be escorted out.

 

[Freodin]

People have come into our church, even joined it, and started in with what they think we need.

We need Promise Keepers, we need the Emmaus Walk, we need to stop preaching "once saved, always saved", we need this seminar, we need that conference, we need this weight-loss program, you need to start wearing this, you need to stop wearing that, etc.

And even though they mean well, after a while of this, they need to be escorted out.

I know that this is something extremely difficult for you to do: understand what other people say, but perhaps, if you tried really really hard, and get your pastor to help you... then, just maybe, you would understand that all the Mike has been trying to do here was to get you to UNDERSTAND the omphalos hypothesis... not ACCEPT it.

 

[BananaSlug]

Good --- I stopped reading right here.

If you can't show me fossils in Genesis 1, please don't show me fossils at all and think I'll be interested enough to reply.

If you can't show me "embedded age" in Genesis 1, please stop using that argument!

So again...

So how is C14 dating a bone to 12,000 years actually different from K-Ar dating a rock when scientists are using the same concept for both methods?

Why would a bone have 12,000 years of age in the first place? Did God put it there? If not, who did?

How does a fossil get into a rock that is 250 million years old?

How does a limestone layer get wedged between a 10 million year old layer of rock and a 5 million year old layer of rock? Based on your idea, God embedded the age into those two layers during creation. But how exactly did that limestone get in there? Limestone is made of the shells of millions of dead organisms and often has the bones of other aquatic animals. How exactly did it get between two layers of solid, embedded-age rock?

If "embedded age" is "maturity without history" what exact do all of these fossils mean?

Are you going to answer any of these or simply continue to ignore them?

 

[Mike Elphick]

No, young man, I'm asking you why you would have requested him to stop in the first place. Please answer this simple question (for the fourth time of asking).

Where, old man, did I say I would request him to stop?

This is getting ridiculous! Let me remind you what you said before:-

Deception.

Omphalos means "navel" --- as in Adam had a navel --- as in they show signs of being born --- as in the appearance of history --- as in deception.

Gosse can take a hike and take his belly-button with him.

If Gosse came to our church and started spreading that Omphalos stuff, and refused to stop, he'd find himself escorted out.

And I would hold the door open.

Now one thing I have been is consistent with my question — no telephone posts or Chinese whispers — so I'm now going to ask it for a FIFTH time, slightly reworded so you cannot fail to understand it:-

Why would you or someone else in your congregation request (a hypothetical) Gosse to stop talking about his Omphalos hypothesis. Why would he be escorted from your church and why would you hold the door open for him? In other words, what do you find so objectionable about Gosse and his Omphalos hypothesis?

 

[AV1611VET]

I know that this is something extremely difficult for you to do: understand what other people say, but perhaps, if you tried really really hard, and get your pastor to help you... then, just maybe, you would understand that all the Mike has been trying to do here was to get you to UNDERSTAND the omphalos hypothesis... not ACCEPT it.

This thread is for taking questions on Embedded Age Creation.

It is not for OEC, YEC, TE, Big Bang, Gap, Day/Age, Omphalos, or Last Thursday.

I do not care to discuss competing cosmologies in-depth here.

 

[AV1611VET]

Are you going to answer any of these or simply continue to ignore them?

Simply continue to ignore them.

 

[The Lady Kate]

This thread is for taking questions on Embedded Age Creation.

So... why should anyone be interested in a theory which does not represent reality, has no applications whatsoever, and serves no purpose except to glorify its believers?

 

[AV1611VET]

Why would you or someone else in your congregation request (a hypothetical) Gosse to stop talking about his Omphalos hypothesis. Why would he be escorted from your church and why would you hold the door open for him?

Because God's House is not the place for someone to come in and starting harping on alternate cosmologies.

In other words, what do you find so objectionable about Gosse and his Omphalos hypothesis?

I've said all I'm going to say about Omphalos in this thread.

 

[Mike Elphick]

This thread is for taking questions on Embedded Age Creation.

Guess what. Omphalos is embedded age creation!