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Taking questions on Embedded Age Creation

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BananaSlug

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I'm not a historian --- and Embedded Age is maturity without history.


In other words you cannot answer the questions. Why don't you take some time tonight to pray to God and see what he tells you. Surely he wouldn't leave you hanging.

If "embedded age" is "maturity without history" then your inability to answer the questions show that you really don't know what you are talking about. I'll post them again for you, considering these questions are actually important to your little "embedded age" idea...

So how is C14 dating a bone to 12,000 years actually different from K-Ar dating a rock when scientists are using the same concept for both methods?

Why would a bone have 12,000 years of age in the first place? Did God put it there? If not, who did?

How does a fossil get into a rock that is 250 million years old?

How does a limestone layer get wedged between a 10 million year old layer of rock and a 5 million year old layer of rock? Based on your idea, God embedded the age into those two layers during creation. But how exactly did that limestone get in there? Limestone is made of the shells of millions of dead organisms and often has the bones of other aquatic animals. How exactly did it get between two layers of solid, embedded-age rock?

If "embedded age" is "maturity without history" what exact do all of these fossils mean? Ignoring these questions does not make it go away. I suggest everyone keep posting these until AV answers them.
 
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thaumaturgy

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Yet, I'll bet you think Easter Eggs in video games are neat, don't you?

FIRST: I don't much care about video games. Never have. Sorry.

SECOND: I do think "hidden treasures" are cool! BUT NOT WHEN WE ARE DEALING WITH THE FATE OF ONE'S IMMORTAL SOUL AND THE LOSER IS ALWAYS THE WEAKER PARTY AND THE LOSS MEANS ETERNAL TORMENT.

I can't make it any clearer than that.

Your example is a video game. Would you play a video game that would literally KILL YOU if you missed a level? Would you play one that would lock you into eternal torment if you failed to find the "easter egg"????

God can't put Easter Eggs in His Word, or in His creation, to keep our daily routines from being ... well ... routine?

I don't give one hang about "routine" or being bored or any of that. If the price of being wrong in a short 80 years on earth without all the facts before me is eternal torment then I'd give up everything, including free will and the chance not to be bored.

Who would do anything else?
 
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AV1611VET

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So why is there a coherent history present throughout all of creation?
Again --- not in Genesis 1 --- there was no history.

Did you mean to ask, "Why is there a coherent history throughout all of history?"

The answer to that is: Because, through the use of programmable computers and software, scientific tools that are myopic, and an education system that will be the pride of the Antichrist, catastrophism can easily be reduced to uniformitarianism.
 
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thaumaturgy

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You mean like, calling Christianity a gift from God?

Hmm, interesting analogy. Now let's make it fit the facts on the ground.

If he were to call Christianity "a gift from God" and then proceed to say Christianity should only be taught the way he thought it should (and he freely admitted he didn't care much about Christian doctrine), and he, perhaps, as an example, disagreed with some of the fundamental concepts of Christianity and said those should be jettisoned, but otherwise he was OK with Christianity, except when he felt he didn't like it and didn't want it around and told Christians to "take a hike", then he'd be doing to Christianity pretty much what you do to science, AV.

God has nothing whatsoever to do with this discussion. Someone has put himself in the "noun" role in this conversation.
 
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AV1611VET

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I don't give one hang about "routine" or being bored or any of that. If the price of being wrong in a short 80 years on earth without all the facts before me is eternal torment then I'd give up everything, including free will and the chance not to be bored.
Easter Eggs in the Bible have nothing to do with salvation.

When it comes to salvation, God is upfront and very explicit.

In fact, the entire Bible can be summed up in 1 John 5:13 --- nineteen one-syllable words that any child can understand.

When I got saved, I didn't even know the Bible, let alone any Easter Eggs in It.

The Bible says Jesus was "declared to be the Son of God".

That doesn't sound like Easter Eggs to me.
 
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Freodin

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You mean like, calling Christianity a gift from God?

God beat you to it.

Yes, of course I mean that. You say it, that settles it. The intend of author or speaker can take a hike... AV has the ultimate truth. He knows what other people mean, what the Bible means, what God means.

And I tell him to take a hike!

I think that Christianity is the best thing that humans ever invented, and I only disagree with it when it contradicts science. Which is in any case that I say that it contradicts science.
 
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Freodin

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Again --- not in Genesis 1 --- there was no history.

Did you mean to ask, "Why is there a coherent history throughout all of history?"

The answer to that is: Because, through the use of programmable computers and software, scientific tools that are myopic, and an education system that will be the pride of the Antichrist, catastrophism can easily be reduced to uniformitarianism.

Now that you have completely destroyed the meaning of the "omphalos" hypothese, you now continue to do that to "catastrophism".

Catastrophism is the hypothesis that the world as we see it now is the result of one or several huge cataclysmic events. It is NOT the hypothesis that these events were of a kind that have never ever been observed and contradict the laws of nature.
 
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Cabal

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The answer to that is: Because, through the use of programmable computers and software, scientific tools that are myopic, and an education system that will be the pride of the Antichrist, catastrophism can easily be reduced to uniformitarianism.

HOW? There's no evidence for it, which you even admit with regard to certain things.

And from that, can you explain to me where your little programmable computers and software mantra came from and what it means? I mean, I already had the impression you'd never set foot in a science lab, but seriously.....
.
 
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thaumaturgy

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Easter Eggs in the Bible have nothing to do with salvation.

When it comes to salvation, God is upfront and very explicit.

Indeed you are correct.

However I am still kind of skeeved out by the Proverbs quote and your apparent position that God can "hide" anything that would be considered "truth".

If one is a Christian, you are correct, the story is quite clear as to how to achieve Salvation. Just "accept" and "receive".

But I'm kind of unsure about a supreme being who can "obfuscate" so effectively that his followers feel it is more important to decimate logic and language in service to some idea that really isn't necessary, even knowing that they are doing it precisely in service to linguistic concepts (ie "literal reading of Genesis").

But more importantly: if Genesis' literal truth has nothing to do with salvation, why do Creationists fight this battle so hard?

(Hint: I have heard many of the arguments from creationists as to why this matters and how it relates.)

----------------------------PS-------------------------------------
I don't want you to get any ideas that my reading of the Bible as a scientist drew me away from Christianity. No, I failed to see enough proof in the real world to justify belief in God. Christian Salvation then became unnecessary as a concept.

As an allegory I think all humanity requires "salvation" from it's lesser attributes. We are not perfect beings and we are prone to error even when we don't think we are. And that is what we need salvation from. And we are never "deserving" of salvation from ourselves because we are who we are. Nothing more, nothing less. We make an error today, we will make a new one tomorrow.

That for me is the essence of "salvation" and even, dare I say "grace". We are not deserving of our better nature and we will never be unless we accept that we are flawed.

Just my 2 cents
 
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AV1611VET

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But more importantly: if Genesis' literal truth has nothing to do with salvation, why do Creationists fight this battle so hard?
That's a hard question to answer, Thaumaturgy.

Ken Ham has a display that shows humanism vis-a-vis Christianity.

They are depicted as two castles... well... hold on... I'll see if I can find it.

Here it is:

castles.jpg


Notice in this picture, that the castle on the right is losing the battle because it is focusing on "side issues", whereas the castle on the left is winning this battle, because it is focusing at the base of the castle on the right.

If we lay the axe at the root of a tree, the whole tree falls.

[The late] Henry M. Morris points out that when God showed up, He tore into Job with one question after another after another --- not about Job's integrity --- but about God's Creation.

We Christians are losing this fight --- the tares are choking the wheat --- and, according to Dispensation Theology --- the dispensation we now live in (Grace, also called the Church Age) is indeed going to be shut down.

But if you look at Jesus in the book of Revelation, He's livid with anger; and it's not going to be a picnic when He shows up.

In fact, nothing is going to stand in His way as He single-handedly mows down all competition against Him.

The blood is going to rise to the level of horse bridles (Revelation 14:20).

I'm not sure if this answers your question, but I hope it at least sheds some light (Light?) on something you may not have thought of.

PS: About your PS, I vaguely remember you mentioning having to pass three crosses on a mountain on your way to work or something, and that seemed to bother you?

Or do I have the wrong person here?
 
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Cabal

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Notice in this picture, that the castle on the right is losing the battle because it is focusing on "side issues", whereas the castle on the left is winning this battle, because it is focusing at the base of the castle on the right.

This is assuming Ken Ham, king of the false dichotomy, has described the base of his opposition accurately. He hasn't, so no wonder there's no attacks being made on it, only at shadows and strawmen.
 
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Split Rock

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Ken Ham has a display that shows humanism vis-a-vis Christianity.
Strange that he conflates the theory of evolution with "humanism." Of course, he is a talented snake-oil salesman.

Notice in this picture, that the castle on the right is losing the battle because it is focusing on "side issues", whereas the castle on the left is winning this battle, because it is focusing at the base of the castle on the right.
That's interesting, because I see Fundamentalist and Evangelical Christians as the ones with the wrong focus. Rather than focus on Salvation they focus on The Creation. In the process they actually drive people away from Christianity. We have seen that happen here in this forum. Is this really the hallmark of a winning strategy for Christianity?

If we lay the axe at the root of a tree, the whole tree falls.
Yes, that seems to be the main argument. Funny thing is we scientists are not aiming our axe at any part of your tree. You are the ones cutting at its roots. Kind of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

We Christians are losing this fight --- the tares are choking the wheat --- and, according to Dispensation Theology --- the dispensation we now live in (Grace, also called the Church Age) is indeed going to be shut down.
Again, I think you guys are the ones making the most trouble for Christainity. You sow decent among Christians, drive people away from Christianty and make it look foolish.

But if you look at Jesus in the book of Revelation, He's livid with anger; and it's not going to be a picnic when He shows up.

In fact, nothing is going to stand in His way as He single-handedly mows down all competition against Him.

The blood is going to rise to the level of horse bridles (Revelation 14:20).

I have to admit, Revelations is a colorful book. However, I don't think anyone really understands it. Is it a dream? A nightmare? A prophecy? Something else?
 
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thaumaturgy

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That's a hard question to answer, Thaumaturgy.

As I said, I've heard the explanations from Creationists.

Ken Ham has a display that shows humanism vis-a-vis Christianity.

I like the cartoon. Those of us here in the humanist camp do so love our "pornography balloons". Big and shiny and can easily distract the most pious.

Notice in this picture, that the castle on the right is losing the battle because it is focusing on "side issues", whereas the castle on the left is winning this battle, because it is focusing at the base of the castle on the right.



If we lay the axe at the root of a tree, the whole tree falls.​


See, that's the thing. In the present case, non-literal Genesis doesn't necessarily have to be the axe laid to the base of your tree.

I don't fully understand why literal Genesis is so important when it works as an allegory. There are plenty of things I know of that are quite fine as allegory and tell me some "truth" in a manner of speaking. But if I were to take these allegories as literal fact and try to come up with explanations of them as fact then I wind up coming up with such ridiculous concepts that I effectively lose sight of the "underlying truth" the allegory provides.

That is, unfortunately, what I perceive one does when one comes up with things like "Embedded Age". Why does Genesis have to be literal? Does it somehow affect one's acceptance of the Christian doctrines?​


[The late] Henry M. Morris points out that when God showed up, He tore into Job with one question after another after another --- not about Job's integrity --- but about God's Creation.​


I don't want to get started on Job. I love most of the book of Job but despise the depiction of God as petulant.

Sure it's true God >> Job, but did God have to prove it by hammering Job?​


Who, exactly, was he impressing? The little man? Easy enough to do I guess.

We Christians are losing this fight --- the tares are choking the wheat​


Now in this case you think "Embedded Age" is the wheat and geology is the "tare"? (Geology, which I might point out provides just about everything you have around you since pretty much everything comes from the earth and geologists find it for you.)

So you think "Embedded Age", a strange assault on both language and logic is somehow a general "good" whereas "clear communication" is the dross you should avoid?

But if you look at Jesus in the book of Revelation, He's livid with anger; and it's not going to be a picnic when He shows up.
In fact, nothing is going to stand in His way as He single-handedly mows down all competition against Him.​


I am always fascinated at how very human that drive is. Revenge, the bad will pay! Jesus will kick some behind! Takin' names! REVENGE!

The blood is going to rise to the level of horse bridles (Revelation 14:20).

That's the stuff! BLOOOOOOOOD! VENGEANCE!

I'm not sure if this answers your question, but I hope it at least sheds some light (Light?) on something you may not have thought of.​


As I said I've heard it all before from Creationists. I merely posed it rhetorically.

PS: About your PS, I vaguely remember you mentioning having to pass three crosses on a mountain on your way to work or something, and that seemed to bother you?

I'm just tired of having to see non-stop Christian symbology while I listen to Christians tell me how bad they have it here in the U.S. and how the eeeevil atheists are always keepin' 'em down.

A bunch of whiners who have the game locked up for themselves and surround us. But heaven forbid one atheist speaks up amidst the cacauphony of Christian voices. You'd think Richard Dawkins was 10 billion men whereas the billion Christian broadcasters were tiny voices out in the wilderness.

Or do I have the wrong person here?

Well I have complained about having to see the crosses on the mountains around here for the reasons stated above. I don't have anything really against crosses per se. Just how whiney Christians here in the U.S. can get when anyone threatens to ask for a break from the non-stop Christian symbolism all around us.
 
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Wedjat

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I'd argue against the racism balloon, and I'd also argue that humanism is a broad identity that really has no base doctrine or anything that all it's members agree on besides the few things that are actually required for the definition of humanist. Outside of that humanists have all kinds of opinions on all sorts of matters, and none of them have to match up, so there may very well be humanists who don't support some of the things on the other balloons.

Other than that, I actually like this cartoon, it's funny, even if it's wrong as far as the bases go.
 
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Pete Harcoff

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Again, I think you guys are the ones making the most trouble for Christainity. You sow decent among Christians, drive people away from Christianty and make it look foolish.

Precisely. Christianity's supposed True Christians[sup]TM[/sup] are its greatest nemesis.

Funny how that is.
 
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