Surely Premils must invent 2 future glorifications days separated by 1000 years+?

[Spiritual Jew]

Who are Gog and Magog in Rev 20 and where do they come from in their billions to overrun your future millennium full of supposed bliss and perfection?

Satan's ability to steal the wholesale affection of the millennial inhabitants (as the sand of the sea) away from Christ at the end of His supposed thousand year reign of glory with a rod of iron is an unprecedented historic turn-around. Christ's kingdom crumbles before Him in the Premil paradigm. Satan succeeds in winning the allegiance of billions of millennial inhabitants at the drop of a hat. Lucifer is then said to have the power and ability to organize this mammoth army and bring them against the glorified elect and pin them down in the "holy city." The Premil millennium is a tremendous bust. Satan creates the biggest religious turn-around in history: from a millennial kingdom where the nations wholesale submit to Christ in righteousness (as Premils portray) to a mass revival of Satanism as "the sand of the sea." The Premillennial millennium culminates in the greatest global uprising in history from the four corners of the earth as “the sand of the sea” against the “camp of the saints.”

The more I think about that scenario the more I find it hard to believe that anyone can believe in premil. I don't think most of them really think about the ramifications of what they believe as you spelled it out here. They give Satan way too much credit and Christ not nearly enough credit.

Let me put it this way. If He actually was on the earth for 1000 years in all His glory and there was nothing but perfect peace on earth during that time, I would dare say that not a single person would rebel against Him after that.

It would be crystal clear to everyone by the end of that time that He is everything scripture says He is and He is worthy to be praised for eternity and it would be insane to rebel against Him. And, yet, premil believes a number as the sand of the sea will do just that. Unbelievable.

 

[Timtofly]

What is described in Revelation 20:7-9 occurs on the earth, so why are you talking about heaven here? Do you have any explanation for why you would not consider a number of people described "as the sand of the sea" as committing sin despite them rebelling against Christ and opposing "the camp of the saints"? It appears that you don't even understand what sin is. How can you be trusted to understand anything in scripture when that is the case?

Because you claim this is the church age with sin in it.

I claim it is a millennium set apart as Holy after the 7th Trumpet and end of sin.

This has nothing to do with the definition of sin.

I was pointing out that even when sin does not and cannot exist, rebellion can. That rebellion is not sin, but having thoughts that Question the direct Will of God. Satan can only think. GOD DOES! God created man as sons of God to have free will and dominion on earth. Satan can only think, not do. Satan deceived Eve by first thinking, and then doing. Neither Eve's thinking nor doing was sin. SIN DID NOT EXIST. Adam disobeyed the one command God said not to do. Then later God let sin enter the world. Not the Garden, Adam was kicked out and became a sinner.

Simply put, Satan will convince a very large army of thinkers to come against a city with intent to do harm. God allows no harm nor evil, just instant Death to billions of thinkers. No sin exists period in this scenario, because this is not the sin existing church period of time. It is after the 7th Trumpet and after the end of sin.

Why do you force this time to be one of sin?

 

[Timtofly]

Who are Gog and Magog in Rev 20 and where do they come from in their billions to overrun your future millennium full of supposed bliss and perfection?

Satan's ability to steal the wholesale affection of the millennial inhabitants (as the sand of the sea) away from Christ at the end of His supposed thousand year reign of glory with a rod of iron is an unprecedented historic turn-around. Christ's kingdom crumbles before Him in the Premil paradigm. Satan succeeds in winning the allegiance of billions of millennial inhabitants at the drop of a hat. Lucifer is then said to have the power and ability to organize this mammoth army and bring them against the glorified elect and pin them down in the "holy city." The Premil millennium is a tremendous bust. Satan creates the biggest religious turn-around in history: from a millennial kingdom where the nations wholesale submit to Christ in righteousness (as Premils portray) to a mass revival of Satanism as "the sand of the sea." The Premillennial millennium culminates in the greatest global uprising in history from the four corners of the earth as “the sand of the sea” against the “camp of the saints.”

You have an evil imagination to think Satan can defeat God. You refute your own argument, by Questioning God's ability. Your argument is with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Timtofly]

Let me put it this way. If He actually was on the earth for 1000 years in all His glory and there was nothing but perfect peace on earth during that time, I would dare say that not a single person would rebel against Him after that.

So correcting the Holy Spirit. And you think I am in error?

 

[sovereigngrace]

You have an evil imagination to think Satan can defeat God. You refute your own argument, by Questioning God's ability. Your argument is with the Holy Spirit.

You better tone down your language.

When are you actually going to address the contradictions in your theology?

Who are Gog and Magog in Rev 20 and where do they come from in their billions to overrun your future millennium full of supposed bliss and perfection?

 

[Timtofly]

You better tone down your language.

When are you actually going to address the contradictions in your theology?

Who are Gog and Magog in Rev 20 and where do they come from in their billions to overrun your future millennium full of supposed bliss and perfection?

I cannot speculate on governments in 3015. I do not even know all the governments in 2020.

I do not base my answer on you thinking this Scripture is the church age, because that is pure fiction.

Do you care to discuss this chapter as truly a 1000 year future period of time as John wrote, or do you want a hypothetical on some human imagination that does not exist?

It is only natural to say humans reproducing for hundreds of years without sin present, will produce billions more people than current conditions of plague and world wars. That is based on known data from the last 1000 years.

Since Christ is ruling it will not start out in the stone age will It? These people just died, and they think like modern humans and have a modern mindset. They cannot go around and destroy creation, but multiply as God intended. Do you worry about population control?

 

[sovereigngrace]

I cannot speculate on governments in 3015. I do not even know all the governments in 2020.

I do not base my answer on you thinking this Scripture is the church age, because that is pure fiction.

Do you care to discuss this chapter as truly a 1000 year future period of time as John wrote, or do you want a hypothetical on some human imagination that does not exist?

It is only natural to say humans reproducing for hundreds of years without sin present, will produce billions more people than current conditions of plague and world wars. That is based on known data from the last 1000 years.

Since Christ is ruling it will not start out in the stone age will It? These people just died, and they think like modern humans and have a modern mindset. They cannot go around and destroy creation, but multiply as God intended. Do you worry about population control?

I, and others, have tried to analyze your views on this chapter (your only proof text in the whole Bible), but you continually avoid the difficult questions that seemingly forbid your doctrine. That is frustrating. We therefor are compelled to fill in the blanks. The only conclusion we can assume is that you do not have answers.

When we give you actual hard Scripture you respond: "I cannot speculate." That is a cop out! The fact is, you do not need to "speculate," the text can adequately speak for itself.

 

[sovereigngrace]

It is only natural to say humans reproducing for hundreds of years without sin present, will produce billions more people than current conditions of plague and world wars. That is based on known data from the last 1000 years.

Since Christ is ruling it will not start out in the stone age will It? These people just died, and they think like modern humans and have a modern mindset. They cannot go around and destroy creation, but multiply as God intended. Do you worry about population control?

This is all natural extra-biblical speculation to support beliefs that you cannot support by hard Scripture. Please give us actual Scripture to support your speculations. With this ad-hoc approach to Scripture, you could make the Bible say anything.

 

[Timtofly]

I, and others, have tried to analyze your views on this chapter (your only proof text in the whole Bible), but you continually avoid the difficult questions that seemingly forbid your doctrine. That is frustrating. We therefor are compelled to fill in the blanks. The only conclusion we can assume is that you do not have answers.

When we give you actual hard Scripture you respond: "I cannot speculate." That is a cop out! The fact is, you do not need to "speculate," the text can adequately speak for itself.

The text gives you insite about what? It says nothing about it being current.

I also pointed out the bodily resurrection and you spiritualize it into nothingness. All you have is nothing. It does not take place in heaven, because the battle of Armageddon is on earth. Yet all you do is point out nothing to avoid the text. Then you mock God and the Holy Spirit and contradict the context. This Gog, Megog area is 1000 years from now. That is all we are told. Then you blame me for your own contradictions about sin being present, when you already agree that sin no longer exist.

I know the text speaks for itself and it contradicts amil, because the text says a literal 1000 years, and you say, "no, it cannot happen."

You cannot even accept the so called "fake heavens" being dissolved. You do not even know where God fits into this "fake heaven", because it does not exist, and all you can do is wait until it happens to prove it does not exist. No, I cannot see Paradise now, and never claimed I can. I trust God, not human opinions.

There are only a few posters who tried to put Gog, Megog into a next war scenario. This OT prophecy is about Turkey. It just happened 2 years ago. Revelation 20 is not about Turkey. It is not even about Russia. It is about a nation 1000 years from now. You cannot even accept that all the continents are going to go back to the pre-Flood condition, so the map will not even look the same at the Second Coming.

The new heaven and earth are not a new reality at the Second Coming. Satan's deception of a universe is gone and a new map of the earth happens, but you interpret God's Word based on annihilation theory, instead of the actual text. You have no verse whatsoever that the last Day is not 1000 years. You reject the chapter that states a 1000 year period between Jesus calling some out of the grave, and the rest of the dead out of the grave. You have plenty of vague prophecy, but no verses of fulfillment except Revelation 20. So stop pretending you yourself, do not need Revelation 20.

 

[Timtofly]

This is all natural extra-biblical speculation to support beliefs that you cannot support by hard Scripture. Please give us actual Scripture to support your speculations. With this ad-hoc approach to Scripture, you could make the Bible say anything.

And your ad-hoc description calls God a liar and places sin where it does not belong. You have 17 ad-hoc points in a thread without any Scripture in them. You have Isaiah's prophecy and you literally remove any plain reading to make it say what your ad-hoc theory requires. You can make Scripture say anything you want it to say, except the truth. I just accept God's Word as written.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The text gives you insite about what? It says nothing about it being current.

I also pointed out the bodily resurrection and you spiritualize it into nothingness. All you have is nothing. It does not take place in heaven, because the battle of Armageddon is on earth. Yet all you do is point out nothing to avoid the text. Then you mock God and the Holy Spirit and contradict the context. This Gog, Megog area is 1000 years from now. That is all we are told. Then you blame me for your own contradictions about sin being present, when you already agree that sin no longer exist.

I know the text speaks for itself and it contradicts amil, because the text says a literal 1000 years, and you say, "no, it cannot happen."

You cannot even accept the so called "fake heavens" being dissolved. You do not even know where God fits into this "fake heaven", because it does not exist, and all you can do is wait until it happens to prove it does not exist. No, I cannot see Paradise now, and never claimed I can. I trust God, not human opinions.

There are only a few posters who tried to put Gog, Megog into a next war scenario. This OT prophecy is about Turkey. It just happened 2 years ago. Revelation 20 is not about Turkey. It is not even about Russia. It is about a nation 1000 years from now. You cannot even accept that all the continents are going to go back to the pre-Flood condition, so the map will not even look the same at the Second Coming.

The new heaven and earth are not a new reality at the Second Coming. Satan's deception of a universe is gone and a new map of the earth happens, but you interpret God's Word based on annihilation theory, instead of the actual text. You have no verse whatsoever that the last Day is not 1000 years. You reject the chapter that states a 1000 year period between Jesus calling some out of the grave, and the rest of the dead out of the grave. You have plenty of vague prophecy, but no verses of fulfillment except Revelation 20. So stop pretending you yourself, do not need Revelation 20.

Nothing you write here addresses the issues. Everything you have written here is a smokescreen to avoid addressing the obvious: that your doctrine does not add up. Your posts consist mainly of wild speculations and false charges, and you know it. They do not win anyone over.

The first resurrection is physical and introduced the millennium/Satan's little season. It has been ongoing since then.

I do not believe in some "annihilation theory." That's another false charge. I believe that all the things that mark your supposed future millennium (sin, sinners, death and corruption, war and terror, Satan and his minions) are banished from the earth forever.

Your constant avoidance does more to advance the Amil cause than I can do.

 

[sovereigngrace]

And your ad-hoc description calls God a liar and places sin where it does not belong. You have 17 ad-hoc points in a thread without any Scripture in them. You have Isaiah's prophecy and you literally remove any plain reading to make it say what your ad-hoc theory requires. You can make Scripture say anything you want it to say, except the truth. I just accept God's Word as written.

Again: zero evidence, just your private opinion.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The text gives you insite about what? It says nothing about it being current.

I also pointed out the bodily resurrection and you spiritualize it into nothingness. All you have is nothing. It does not take place in heaven, because the battle of Armageddon is on earth. Yet all you do is point out nothing to avoid the text. Then you mock God and the Holy Spirit and contradict the context. This Gog, Megog area is 1000 years from now. That is all we are told. Then you blame me for your own contradictions about sin being present, when you already agree that sin no longer exist.

I know the text speaks for itself and it contradicts amil, because the text says a literal 1000 years, and you say, "no, it cannot happen."

You cannot even accept the so called "fake heavens" being dissolved. You do not even know where God fits into this "fake heaven", because it does not exist, and all you can do is wait until it happens to prove it does not exist. No, I cannot see Paradise now, and never claimed I can. I trust God, not human opinions.

There are only a few posters who tried to put Gog, Megog into a next war scenario. This OT prophecy is about Turkey. It just happened 2 years ago. Revelation 20 is not about Turkey. It is not even about Russia. It is about a nation 1000 years from now. You cannot even accept that all the continents are going to go back to the pre-Flood condition, so the map will not even look the same at the Second Coming.

The new heaven and earth are not a new reality at the Second Coming. Satan's deception of a universe is gone and a new map of the earth happens, but you interpret God's Word based on annihilation theory, instead of the actual text. You have no verse whatsoever that the last Day is not 1000 years. You reject the chapter that states a 1000 year period between Jesus calling some out of the grave, and the rest of the dead out of the grave. You have plenty of vague prophecy, but no verses of fulfillment except Revelation 20. So stop pretending you yourself, do not need Revelation 20.

Whatever way you package it up: you have billions of phonies who are playing at it in your millennium. This is after Jesus being in their midst ruling with "a rod of iron" unchallenged for 1000 years? You have a millennial kingdom filled with phonies supposedly submitted to the leadership of Christ wholesale turning from Him to Satan at his very appearing. This is surely the greatest and swiftest religious turn-around in history. Billions as the sand of the sea jump camps. How could they do this? After all: Jesus is supposed to be reigning in all His glory and majesty with a rod of iron along with the saints in their glorified bodies. These must be the most crooked, deceived, bull-headed, stubborn, stiff-necked and blinded company of humans ever to live. This is an incredible bust. It is a debacle. So much for the righteous reign of Christ on this earth. So much for the submission of the nations. The reality is: most of what Premils attribute to Revelation 20 doesn't exist. It is foisted on the inspired text.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

So correcting the Holy Spirit. And you think I am in error?

Okay, the time has finally come to put you on ignore. In no way, shape or form was I saying I was correcting the Holy Spirit. I was giving an opinion and not at all "correcting the Holy Spirit". I have had enough of your nonsense.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Okay, the time has finally come to put you on ignore. In no way, shape or form was I saying I was correcting the Holy Spirit. I was giving an opinion and not at all "correcting the Holy Spirit". I have had enough of your nonsense.

Bro, every single post he submits is like this. He does it to goad Amils. He knows he is misrepresenting them. He knows he is antagonizing them. It is flagrant and deliberate. Goading is against the rules of this board.

The fact is: he cannot refute what Amils really believe so he has to invent what we do not believe.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Bro, every single post he submits is like this. He does it to goad Amils. He knows he is misrepresenting them. He knows he is antagonizing them. It is flagrant and deliberate. Goading is against the rules of this board.

The fact is: he cannot refute what Amils really believe so he has to invent what we do not believe.

I know you're right about that. I know he's doing it on purpose. He knows we don't believe most of the things he claims that we do.

He is not able to counter our arguments with scripture, so he is left with nothing to do but insult us and misrepresent what we believe. But, I'm not willing to put up with that anymore. It's a waste of time.

 

[DavidPT]

The more I think about that scenario the more I find it hard to believe that anyone can believe in premil. I don't think most of them really think about the ramifications of what they believe as you spelled it out here. They give Satan way too much credit and Christ not nearly enough credit.

Let me put it this way. If He actually was on the earth for 1000 years in all His glory and there was nothing but perfect peace on earth during that time, I would dare say that not a single person would rebel against Him after that.

It would be crystal clear to everyone by the end of that time that He is everything scripture says He is and He is worthy to be praised for eternity and it would be insane to rebel against Him. And, yet, premil believes a number as the sand of the sea will do just that. Unbelievable.

Didn't you used to believe in Premil at some point in the past? If yes, why did you then, in light of what you think here? How long did you believe in Premil before you finally decided not to any longer? This assuming you believed in Premil in the past.

You do realize, right, that there was a time when satan was in good standing with God? Yet he rebelled, regardless. Why did he, though? He knew for a fact God existed, the fact he has literally been in God's presence. So, why don't you find that scenario equally hard to believe, that satan, after having been literally in God's presence, decided to rebel, regardless?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Didn't you used to believe in Premil at some point in the past? If yes, why did you then, in light of what you think here?

Yes, but I never gave it much thought before I became an Amil. Revelation 20 never made any sense to me until I came across people talking about Amil on the Bible Forums site many years ago now. I started to look into it more closely after that and it didn't take me long at all to become an Amil. Before that I just assumed premil was true because Revelation 20 followed Revelation 19. But, I've never strongly supported premil.

Before becoming an Amil, I was always post-trib. I was much more focused on supporting post-trib and refuting pre-trib back then and didn't give Revelation 20 much thought at all.

You do realize, right, that there was a time when satan was in good standing with God? Yet he rebelled, regardless. Why did he, though? He knew for a fact God existed, the fact he has literally been in God's presence. So, why don't you find that scenario equally hard to believe, that satan, after having been literally in God's presence, decided to rebel, regardless?

Yes, that scenario is a bit hard to believe as well, but I'm not going to pretend to know what it's like to be an angel. I'm not sure comparing humans to angels makes much sense. Angels are much more powerful than humans, so it makes more sense that they might have thought that they could rebel against God and defeat Him. But humans? How in the world would they think they could defeat Christ after seeing Him in all His glory?

It was apparently a third of the angels that rebelled, but we're talking about a number of people "as the sand of the sea" rebelling against Christ after experiencing Him in all His glory and experiencing peace on earth for 1000 years.

And it describes them as surrounding the camp of the saints, so it appears that the number of rebels far outnumbers the number who stay loyal to Christ. How could that be in light of what they had just experienced the past 1000 years? Maybe some of them would rebel for some reason, but it appears that a vast majority of them would. Why? And how could it be that mere mortal humans would think that they could defeat Christ after seeing Him in all His glory? Surely, they would know that it would be impossible.

Another question I believe premils need to answer is what exactly would be the point of the earthly millennial kingdom when so many people numbering "as the sand of the sea" will just end up rebelling at the end of it? Doesn't that make it all seem pointless and make it all out to be a failure?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Yes, but I never gave it much thought before I became an Amil. Revelation 20 never made any sense to me until I came across people talking about Amil on the Bible Forums site many years ago now. I started to look into it more closely after that and it didn't take me long at all to become an Amil. Before that I just assumed premil was true because Revelation 20 followed Revelation 19. But, I've never strongly supported premil.

Before becoming an Amil, I was always post-trib. I was much more focused on supporting post-trib and refuting pre-trib back then and didn't give Revelation 20 much thought at all.

Yes, that scenario is a bit hard to believe as well, but I'm not going to pretend to know what it's like to be an angel. I'm not sure comparing humans to angels makes much sense. Angels are much more powerful than humans, so it makes more sense that they might have thought that they could rebel against God and defeat Him. But humans? How in the world would they think they could defeat Christ after seeing Him in all His glory?

It was apparently a third of the angels that rebelled, but we're talking about a number of people "as the sand of the sea" rebelling against Christ after experiencing Him in all His glory and experiencing peace on earth for 1000 years.

And it describes them as surrounding the camp of the saints, so it appears that the number of rebels far outnumbers the number who stay loyal to Christ. How could that be in light of what they had just experienced the past 1000 years? Maybe some of them would rebel for some reason, but it appears that a vast majority of them would. Why? And how could it be that mere mortal humans would think that they could defeat Christ after seeing Him in all His glory? Surely, they would know that it would be impossible.

Another question I believe premils need to answer is what exactly would be the point of the earthly millennial kingdom when so many people numbering "as the sand of the sea" will just end up rebelling at the end of it? Doesn't that make it all seem pointless and make it all out to be a failure?

I totally agree bro! The number of Satan’s rebels are as the sand of the sea. They overrun and overwhelm the Premil earth-to-come and seem to far-outnumber the camp who remain loyal to Christ. How could that be in light of the Premil scenario which portrays a glorious blissful unchallenged future reign of Christ ruling with a rod of iron over the subjugated nations for literally 1000 years? This earth is often pictured as enveloped in unparalleled righteousness and justice. The reality is, when Premils are pressed, their future millennial earth is just a re-run of our age. Sin, sinners, death and corruption, war and terror, Satan and his minions continue and abound in the Premil age to come.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I totally agree bro! The number of Satan’s rebels are as the sand of the sea. They overrun and overwhelm the Premil earth-to-come and seem to far-outnumber the camp who remain loyal to Christ. How could that be in light of the Premil scenario which portrays a glorious blissful unchallenged future reign of Christ ruling with a rod of iron over the subjugated nations for literally 1000 years.

I would love for premils to try to answer that question.

This earth is often pictured as enveloped in unparalleled righteousness and justice. The reality is, when Premils are pressed, their future millennial earth is just a re-run of our age. Sin, sinners, death and corruption, war and terror, Satan and his minions continue and abound on the Premil age to come.

Exactly right. Premil basically has history repeating itself with unrestrained wickedness for a short time before God's wrath comes down at Christ's return and then the same thing again 1000 years later. I don't know how anyone can make sense of that.

Most premils would agree with us that the level of deception and wickedness gets worse just before the second coming of Christ. And the level of deception and wickedness gets worse before the end in Revelation 20:7-9 as well. But, how could it make sense for God to allow 2 separate future times of unrestrained wickedness? Isn't one short period of time allowing Satan to wreak havoc on the earth unrestrained enough?