Surely Premils must invent 2 future glorifications days separated by 1000 years+?

[sovereigngrace]

Adam lived out the rest of his life in a corruptible body. Adam's incorruptible body died. He died physically and lost his spirit part of God's image, thus spiritually separated, and spiritually dead.

4 The serpent said to the woman, “It is not true that you will surely die;
5 because God knows that on the day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Satan said, "you will not die". God said, "But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt die the death."

Adam and Eve lost their permanent body made by God and was given the corruptible tent body, that decays and eventually will die. Thus all of Adam's descendants through Seth and later Noah, were in Adam's image and likeness, no longer in God's image and likeness.

Genesis 5:3

Now Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a child in his own likeness after his image, and called his name Seth.

The sinful fleshly image of Adam was passed on, because the God image was dead to humankind, because of Adam's disobedience.

Adam's incorruptible body changed to a body of decay. He never physically died until he died.

 

[Timtofly]

Adam's incorruptible body changed to a body of decay. He never physically died until he died.

Like I said. That is what Satan said.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Like I said. That is what Satan said.

As per normal, you are unable to quote Scripture. That is because your beliefs are not supported by the sacred text.

 

[Timtofly]

As per normal, you are unable to quote Scripture. That is because your beliefs are not supported by the sacred text.

"The serpent said to the woman, “It is not true that you will surely die;"

Or "It is true, you will surely not die."

Did Satan give her a truth? No. Satan said it is not true. What is not true? "You will surely die".

Did Satan lie? Yes. God said Adam would die the death.

'and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

You lie and say they could only die once. GOD cannot lie. You cannot make up your own interpretation of what God's death was to Adam. Adam died that day. The second he ate he was changed. It is the reversal of those alive in Christ at his second coming who will die in mid air. Adam flesh has to die and cannot enter Paradise. If you claim it could not happen to Adam on that one day, then you have to reject it happens to some not physically dead at the Second Coming. All Adam have to die. Adam died in the reverse manner. All have to change, according to Paul. God said Adam's change was to death. Adam was as in Christ before he ate, after eating he was changed, literally dead.

Now if you only spiritualize the event, what died? According to you, nothing. The soul cannot die. The spirit cannot die, that is spiritual, not physical. The only death was physical. Now with a corruptible body, they could not even look upon God, but were physically dead to God. No man can look upon God, and live. They were cast out of God's presence, Paradise, and left in a dead physical body. The old body of God's image was physically gone. This time old means best and perfect, incorruptible, but no longer Adam can claim this physical body. Exodus 33:20

"But my face,” he continued, “you cannot see, because a human being cannot look at me and remain alive."

Revelation 6:16

“Fall on us, and hide us from the face of the One sitting on the throne."

Do you think Adam never saw God's face while living in the Garden? Another one of Satan's lies:

"because God knows that on the day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

If they can see, and look upon God, how much more can their eyes be opened? Satan implies they cannot see like God sees. God walks and talks with them. This relationship was a face to face relationship. This is evident because after they ate:

They heard the voice of Adonai, God, walking in the garden at the time of the evening breeze, so the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of Adonai, God, among the trees in the garden.

No longer could they see God, they only heard His voice, and they hid from the voice. Why would they hide from a voice? Most people ignore voices, not hide from them. They could not see God, but in hiding, they knew God could see them.

How can this change to Adam be anything else if not physical? You deny Adam lost his spirit. Adam's spirit did not die. The souls experiencing spiritual death is separated from their spirit. A demon is not dead. It is spiritual darkness with out God's light present. A human spirit that has left God's presence because the darkness of wickedness drove it from God's presence. The soul and spirit is not the same thing. The soul is who we are. The spirit is who God is. Paul explained it as not being who we are, but something that is cast off. This mortal must put on immortality. Paul did not say become immortal.

53 For this material which can decay must be clothed with imperishability, this which is mortal must be clothed with immortality.
54 When what decays puts on imperishability and what is mortal puts on immortality,

The same with the soul and the new body. The soul puts on the body first, then puts on the spirit. The body comes first and then the spirit. After the spirit comes, then:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.
“Death, where is your victory?
Death, where is your sting?”

 

[sovereigngrace]

"The serpent said to the woman, “It is not true that you will surely die;"

Or "It is true, you will surely not die."

Did Satan give her a truth? No. Satan said it is not true. What is not true? "You will surely die".

Did Satan lie? Yes. God said Adam would die the death.

'and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

You lie and say they could only die once. GOD cannot lie. You cannot make up your own interpretation of what God's death was to Adam. Adam died that day. The second he ate he was changed. It is the reversal of those alive in Christ at his second coming who will die in mid air. Adam flesh has to die and cannot enter Paradise. If you claim it could not happen to Adam on that one day, then you have to reject it happens to some not physically dead at the Second Coming. All Adam have to die. Adam died in the reverse manner. All have to change, according to Paul. God said Adam's change was to death. Adam was as in Christ before he ate, after eating he was changed, literally dead.

Now if you only spiritualize the event, what died? According to you, nothing. The soul cannot die. The spirit cannot die, that is spiritual, not physical. The only death was physical. Now with a corruptible body, they could not even look upon God, but were physically dead to God. No man can look upon God, and live. They were cast out of God's presence, Paradise, and left in a dead physical body. The old body of God's image was physically gone. This time old means best and perfect, incorruptible, but no longer Adam can claim this physical body. Exodus 33:20

"But my face,” he continued, “you cannot see, because a human being cannot look at me and remain alive."

Revelation 6:16

“Fall on us, and hide us from the face of the One sitting on the throne."

Do you think Adam never saw God's face while living in the Garden? Another one of Satan's lies:

"because God knows that on the day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

If they can see, and look upon God, how much more can their eyes be opened? Satan implies they cannot see like God sees. God walks and talks with them. This relationship was a face to face relationship. This is evident because after they ate:

They heard the voice of Adonai, God, walking in the garden at the time of the evening breeze, so the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of Adonai, God, among the trees in the garden.

No longer could they see God, they only heard His voice, and they hid from the voice. Why would they hide from a voice? Most people ignore voices, not hide from them. They could not see God, but in hiding, they knew God could see them.

How can this change to Adam be anything else if not physical? You deny Adam lost his spirit. Adam's spirit did not die. The souls experiencing spiritual death is separated from their spirit. A demon is not dead. It is spiritual darkness with out God's light present. A human spirit that has left God's presence because the darkness of wickedness drove it from God's presence. The soul and spirit is not the same thing. The soul is who we are. The spirit is who God is. Paul explained it as not being who we are, but something that is cast off. This mortal must put on immortality. Paul did not say become immortal.

53 For this material which can decay must be clothed with imperishability, this which is mortal must be clothed with immortality.
54 When what decays puts on imperishability and what is mortal puts on immortality,

The same with the soul and the new body. The soul puts on the body first, then puts on the spirit. The body comes first and then the spirit. After the spirit comes, then:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.
“Death, where is your victory?
Death, where is your sting?”

You are yet to address the Premil conundrum: Surely Premils must invent 2 future glorifications days separated by 1000 years+?

 

[Timtofly]

You are yet to address the Premil conundrum: Surely Premils must invent 2 future glorifications days separated by 1000 years+?

No one invents 1 glorification day. The church is not on earth after the 6th Seal. The church is in Paradise until the city comes down as the New Jerusalem. The Second Coming only happens once at the 6th Seal and then the church is complete. No more added period. It is your conundrum, not mine.

 

[sovereigngrace]

No one invents 1 glorification day. The church is not on earth after the 6th Seal. The church is in Paradise until the city comes down as the New Jerusalem. The Second Coming only happens once at the 6th Seal and then the church is complete. No more added period. It is your conundrum, not mine.

Yes it is. What happens to all your supposed future millennial converts when the earth is regenerated again 1000 years after the second coming?

 

[Timtofly]

Yes it is. What happens to all your supposed future millennial converts when the earth is regenerated again 1000 years after the second coming?

What are they converted from? Yes, your fake conundrum is still your conundrum. You do realize that resurrected bodies free of sin also pass on the biological incorruptible body without sin? That is just normal biology. One does not have to make living on earth weird do they? We are talking about earth. Do you think that sex stops on the NE? The earth is not regenerated at the end of the Millennium. Creation ceases at the end of creation. The Second Coming is not the end of creation. It is the end of sin. Nothing about sin is passed on after the Second Coming. That does not change whether you wish the millennium away or not.

 

[sovereigngrace]

What are they converted from? Yes, your fake conundrum is still your conundrum. You do realize that resurrected bodies free of sin also pass on the biological incorruptible body without sin? That is just normal biology. One does not have to make living on earth weird do they? We are talking about earth. Do you think that sex stops on the NE? The earth is not regenerated at the end of the Millennium. Creation ceases at the end of creation. The Second Coming is not the end of creation. It is the end of sin. Nothing about sin is passed on after the Second Coming. That does not change whether you wish the millennium away or not.

Are there mortals in your future millennium? Are there unsaved in your future millennium?

 

[Timtofly]

Are there mortals in your future millennium? Are there unsaved in your future millennium?

These terms do not apply. Was Adam a mortal or unsaved living in the Garden prior to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Was Adam even a potential mortal or potentially unsaved? Did the degree of potentiality change the further away from the tree that Adam happened to be at any given moment?

In the last 5990 years did some humans just happen to be born without a sin nature? Have some happened to be born as incorruptible never able to die, without God changing their physical biological condition?

 

[sovereigngrace]

These terms do not apply. Was Adam a mortal or unsaved living in the Garden prior to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Was Adam even a potential mortal or potentially unsaved? Did the degree of potentiality change the further away from the tree that Adam happened to be at any given moment?

In the last 5990 years did some humans just happen to be born without a sin nature? Have some happened to be born as incorruptible never able to die, without God changing their physical biological condition?

Once again, you will not answer the question straight.

 

[Timtofly]

Once again, you will not answer the question straight.

Once again they do not apply. You explain to me how they do not apply if all humanity is dead. It is not even if they are dead. They are dead. A Resurrection happens, thus they are dead. How does sin, death, and being mortal apply to dead people, much less those in New resurrected bodies?

OK, dead people are dead. Are dead people still mortal? Are dead people still unsaved?

Why would that change if they were given a new body that cannot die a second time, or even be considered as a candidate for the Second Death in the Lake of Fire?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Once again they do not apply. You explain to me how they do not apply if all humanity is dead. It is not even if they are dead. They are dead. A Resurrection happens, thus they are dead. How does sin, death, and being mortal apply to dead people, much less those in New resurrected bodies?

OK, dead people are dead. Are dead people still mortal? Are dead people still unsaved?

Why would that change if they were given a new body that cannot die a second time, or even be considered as a candidate for the Second Death in the Lake of Fire?

Who are the billions of wicked who rise up against the saints in Satan's little season as the sand of the sea?

 

[Timtofly]

Who are the billions of wicked who rise up against the saints in Satan's little season as the sand of the sea?

Where is the word wicked in Revelation 20?

They certainly are not any one now or the last 1990 years.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Where is the word wicked in Revelation 20?

They certainly are not any one now or the last 1990 years.

Please stop your avoidance. Who are Gog and Magog in Rev 20 and where do they come from in their billions to overrun your future millennium full of supposed bliss and perfection?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Where is the word wicked in Revelation 20?

They certainly are not any one now or the last 1990 years.

LOL. So, you wouldn't consider the people numbering as the sand of the seashore going to battle against the camp of the saints to be wicked people? Clearly, they would be unsaved people going up against the camp of the saints, right? What is your problem exactly with calling them wicked?

So, the question for you is who exactly are these unsaved people who would go to attack the camp of the saints? You say sin ends when Christ returns. I agree, but how then do you explain Revelation 20:7-9 if that were to happen long after He returns? It wouldn't be sin for these people to go to attack God's people?

Why is it that fire will come down upon them? Clearly, because of their rebellion against Christ and His people, right? You wouldn't consider the fact that they oppose the camp of the saints with the intent of attacking them to be sin? Of course it is.

If you would just acknowledge that Amil is true then you could keep your belief that sin ends at the return of Christ intact without trying to explain away what happens in Revelation 20:7-9.

 

[Timtofly]

Please stop your avoidance. Who are Gog and Magog in Rev 20 and where do they come from in their billions to overrun your future millennium full of supposed bliss and perfection?

No one alive today. Do you really want me to speculate on humans living on earth in the 3010's?

You do not even accept John saying in Revelation 6, the continents and mountains are moved back into a single continent. Later in Revelation 16, there are no more mountains. Is that figurative for one vast plateau? What Nation settles where?

So your excuse is they are alive today, and billions of humans are literally going to be burned up, and where does this fit if Satan is marching towards some central city, and Jesus is approaching from heaven, who are those being marched against by both Jesus and Satan?

 

[Timtofly]

LOL. So, you wouldn't consider the people numbering as the sand of the seashore going to battle against the camp of the saints to be wicked people? Clearly, they would be unsaved people going up against the camp of the saints, right? What is your problem exactly with calling them wicked?

So, the question for you is who exactly are these unsaved people who would go to attack the camp of the saints? You say sin ends when Christ returns. I agree, but how then do you explain Revelation 20:7-9 if that were to happen long after He returns? It wouldn't be sin for these people to go to attack God's people?

Why is it that fire will come down upon them? Clearly, because of their rebellion against Christ and His people, right? You wouldn't consider the fact that they oppose the camp of the saints with the intent of attacking them to be sin? Of course it is.

If you would just acknowledge that Amil is true then you could keep your belief that sin ends at the return of Christ intact without trying to explain away what happens in Revelation 20:7-9.

You define all creation by sin. Is sin in heaven? The angels and Satan were in heaven, thus by your logic, God let sin in heaven.

Why not just stop defining creation by the term sin? If sin is gone, then nothing absolutely nothing can even be defined with the word sin.

The term original sin is a blatant lie of Satan the father of lies. Adam disobeyed God, yes. Was it sin, no. Sin did not exist when Adam ate. Sin was instituted after God came and there was the exchange between Adam, Eve, Satan, and God. The Covenant of sin? The Covenant of Adam? The Covenant of Atonement? We are not told what the name was nor the whole of this agreement that would not end until the 7th Trumpet.

Adam disobeyed and Paul said this was not the sin of the Law. The Law only covered the sin of the Covenant made when God came on the next visit after Adam ate. Since Adam did not sin, but disobeyed, then without sin any being can disobey a Law, without sin being a condition. This is the rule of the iron rod. Disobedience results in Death. No memorial for Disobedience. Can you grasp a Law that is not defined by sin or the propensity to sin, that is a sin nature?

Or the Angels which cannot act on their own will. They can think, but cannot do. Did they not do a command to follow Satan? Or did they kindly ask God if they could rebel? If they did not have the ability to act, how could they do anything to disobey God? The only thing they could do is not obey, or ask God if they could do something against God. Since God could not command them to do evil, then I assume, they told God in certain terms they would rebel and by their thinking it God granted their rebellion. Instead of consuming them with fire, they were bound below the earth until the 5th Trumpet gave Satan permission to release them to do their rebellion that God saved for the Second Coming.

God did not let them act on a perfect world at the time of Satan in the Garden, and they do not seem mixed up in the sins of the sons of God. Since we do not know when they wanted to rebel, all we can know is their rebellion does seem to be put on hold until the Second Coming.

So there are examples of beings with sin non-existent and where rebellion in one's thoughts can go against a law and not be considered sin.

If Satan can convince a third of the angels who did not, nor could not sin, why is it difficult to see Satan turn an unnumbered amount of humanity? It could be 90% of humanity. It could be 10% of humanity, nor should it seem a waste, because John says it happens. Are we smarter than God? I think it is this ability to question God that God does not see as sin, but rebellion as a totally different step of action against God. Is claiming there is no millennium a sin? No. Is questioning God's Word being like Satan when he deceived Eve? Asking God why may not be a big deal. But asking why can the millennium not be the church age is starting to question God's Word and Will. John did not define the millennium as the church age, he defined it as the days after the battle of Armageddon. It is after the 42 months of Satan when many had their heads chopped off instead of receiving the mark. That is how John defined the millennium.

Then he claimed, even with sin non-existent, humans still rebelled, questioned God's will and plan. Just marching to the capital in a peaceful protest, would be considered rebellion. They could not kill or destroy others, remember sin and evil do not exist. Even a peaceful march would not cover their thoughts. John claims they wanted a battle. All God allowed was fire from heaven that consumed them. Still not sure why it is so difficult to see how even a thought can be considered rebellion towards God, but not a stated sin. Since we are under grace, such a thought can be repented of and forgiven. Under an iron rod, instant Death.

What do you mean explain away? I thought you wanted an honest answer. So you are not honest asking questions? You are the one explaining away Revelation 20. I am just comparing Scripture with Scripture for a plausible reason. Now you just want to see who can be the best at dishonesty?

What do you mean by just acknowledge a false theology is true? Job was told by his friends to just curse God and die. Nebuchadnezzar told the 3 Hebrews to bow and escape the fiery furnace. Why would I rebel against God's Word?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You define all creation by sin. Is sin in heaven? The angels and Satan were in heaven, thus by your logic, God let sin in heaven.

What is described in Revelation 20:7-9 occurs on the earth, so why are you talking about heaven here? Do you have any explanation for why you would not consider a number of people described "as the sand of the sea" as committing sin despite them rebelling against Christ and opposing "the camp of the saints"? It appears that you don't even understand what sin is. How can you be trusted to understand anything in scripture when that is the case?

 

[sovereigngrace]

No one alive today. Do you really want me to speculate on humans living on earth in the 3010's?

You do not even accept John saying in Revelation 6, the continents and mountains are moved back into a single continent. Later in Revelation 16, there are no more mountains. Is that figurative for one vast plateau? What Nation settles where?

So your excuse is they are alive today, and billions of humans are literally going to be burned up, and where does this fit if Satan is marching towards some central city, and Jesus is approaching from heaven, who are those being marched against by both Jesus and Satan?

Who are Gog and Magog in Rev 20 and where do they come from in their billions to overrun your future millennium full of supposed bliss and perfection?

Satan's ability to steal the wholesale affection of the millennial inhabitants (as the sand of the sea) away from Christ at the end of His supposed thousand year reign of glory with a rod of iron is an unprecedented historic turn-around. Christ's kingdom crumbles before Him in the Premil paradigm. Satan succeeds in winning the allegiance of billions of millennial inhabitants at the drop of a hat. Lucifer is then said to have the power and ability to organize this mammoth army and bring them against the glorified elect and pin them down in the "holy city." The Premil millennium is a tremendous bust. Satan creates the biggest religious turn-around in history: from a millennial kingdom where the nations wholesale submit to Christ in righteousness (as Premils portray) to a mass revival of Satanism as "the sand of the sea." The Premillennial millennium culminates in the greatest global uprising in history from the four corners of the earth as “the sand of the sea” against the “camp of the saints.”