Surely Premils must invent 2 future glorifications days separated by 1000 years+?

[Timtofly]

Where i believe you err is that you impute a meaning and environment to Revelation 20 that is not actually in the text. That is what you have been taught but it is nowhere in the text. To apply Revelation 20 to the here-and-now therefore doesn't fit your perception.

Neither should you apply it to the here and now, because you put the first resurrection at the cross. You do not even view it as a bodily resurrection. You do not even view it as Revelation actually puts into the text. They were dead. They were resurrected. They were judged. They were given incorruptible bodies, because that is what Paul says happens at a resurrection. They reign with Christ on earth in Jerusalem, the city on earth, for 1000 years. Because at the end Satan comes against the Jerusalem on earth, from the four corners of the earth. It is all written there in Revelation 20. The only thing I insert is what Paul claims happens in a bodily resurrection. Revelation says this body cannot die again, not even at the GWT called the second death. If they can not die, have a body, and live on earth, and you claim it happened at the Cross, you have to prove there are humans living in Jerusalem who have not died for 1990 years.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Neither should you apply it to the here and now, because you put the first resurrection at the cross. You do not even view it as a bodily resurrection. You do not even view it as Revelation actually puts into the text. They were dead. They were resurrected. They were judged. They were given incorruptible bodies, because that is what Paul says happens at a resurrection. They reign with Christ on earth in Jerusalem, the city on earth, for 1000 years. Because at the end Satan comes against the Jerusalem on earth, from the four corners of the earth. It is all written there in Revelation 20. The only thing I insert is what Paul claims happens in a bodily resurrection. Revelation says this body cannot die again, not even at the GWT called the second death. If they can not die, have a body, and live on earth, and you claim it happened at the Cross, you have to prove there are humans living in Jerusalem who have not died for 1990 years.

The first resurrection is Christ's. You deny that. That is the second reason why you do not grasp Revelation 20.

 

[Timtofly]

The first resurrection is Christ's. You deny that. That is the second reason why you do not grasp Revelation 20.

Revelation 20 is not talking about the very first resurrection of Christ and all of the OT believers as the firstfruits.

That is your corrupted interpretation of Revelation 20 that is in error.

Revelation 20 is the resurrection where the 144K are the firstfruits, and those after the church is completed are resurrected from the final harvest. There is no more eternal life resurrection of the church, after the rapture in the 6th seal. There is no more eternal death after the battle of Armageddon pertaining to the first death.

Those who die for rebellion in the Millennium we are not told where they go. They could be cast immediately into the lake of fire like the FP was. They could be put into Death with a different outcome than those just in sheol for the last 5990 years. All we know is Death is not natural. Someone has to rebel against Christ's direct authority. Rebellion will not be tolerated, nor will it be that often. It will not be like, oops I sinned and need to confess every 30 minutes. The knowledge of good and evil will be removed along with the sin that leads to such knowledge. It is the first resurrection of it's kind. There will be thrones and judgment pronounced. The resurrection of the church was in Christ alone on the Cross with God's judgment poured out onto God Himself. There is not going to be a bodily resurrection of the church. It already happened in Christ 1990 years ago. People refuse to apply this truth to the church. We are not dead people. We are living people that pass from the physical earth to the physical Paradise. No waiting in line for the living. No waiting without a body. No waiting period.

Most of the church want to live in some human imagination. Some reject God's Word. The 1000 years is literally written in God's Word. It is not man made imagination that jumps into the text each time a person reads their Bible. It is not an invention. John recorded it, because he was literally there. Soon we all we be literally there, some in Death, some on the earth, and some in Paradise with God.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Revelation 20 is not talking about the very first resurrection of Christ and all of the OT believers as the firstfruits.

That is your corrupted interpretation of Revelation 20 that is in error.

Revelation 20 is the resurrection where the 144K are the firstfruits, and those after the church is completed are resurrected from the final harvest. There is no more eternal life resurrection of the church, after the rapture in the 6th seal. There is no more eternal death after the battle of Armageddon pertaining to the first death.

Those who die for rebellion in the Millennium we are not told where they go. They could be cast immediately into the lake of fire like the FP was. They could be put into Death with a different outcome than those just in sheol for the last 5990 years. All we know is Death is not natural. Someone has to rebel against Christ's direct authority. Rebellion will not be tolerated, nor will it be that often. It will not be like, oops I sinned and need to confess every 30 minutes. The knowledge of good and evil will be removed along with the sin that leads to such knowledge. It is the first resurrection of it's kind. There will be thrones and judgment pronounced. The resurrection of the church was in Christ alone on the Cross with God's judgment poured out onto God Himself. There is not going to be a bodily resurrection of the church. It already happened in Christ 1990 years ago. People refuse to apply this truth to the church. We are not dead people. We are living people that pass from the physical earth to the physical Paradise. No waiting in line for the living. No waiting without a body. No waiting period.

Most of the church want to live in some human imagination. Some reject God's Word. The 1000 years is literally written in God's Word. It is not man made imagination that jumps into the text each time a person reads their Bible. It is not an invention. John recorded it, because he was literally there. Soon we all we be literally there, some in Death, some on the earth, and some in Paradise with God.

Amil interprets Scripture with Scripture re Revelation 20. This is where Amil and Premil differs. Amil has multiple corroboration for their view of Revelation 20. Premil has nothing to support one single tenet.

 

[Timtofly]

Amil interprets Scripture with Scripture re Revelation 20. This is where Amil and Premil differs. Amil has multiple corroboration for their view of Revelation 20. Premil has nothing to support one single tenet.

You seem to be able to reject any Scripture that defines Revelation 20. None of your Scriptural proof even addresses Revelation 20. It only addresses your non ideas of what Revelation 20 is not.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You seem to be able to reject any Scripture that defines Revelation 20. None of your Scriptural proof even addresses Revelation 20. It only addresses your non ideas of what Revelation 20 is not.

Do you reject the fact that Jesus is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5)?

 

[Timtofly]

Do you reject the fact that Jesus is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5)?

I already said Christ was the first fruits, along with all the OT believers in Abraham's bosom. Do you not accept the OT church is now in Paradise with all the NT church that has gone before us alive today? Do you reject the resurrection of those in Christ? Or do you leave all souls in limbo?

 

[sovereigngrace]

I already said Christ was the first fruits, along with all the OT believers in Abraham's bosom. Do you not accept the OT church is now in Paradise with all the NT church that has gone before us alive today? Do you reject the resurrection of those in Christ? Or do you leave all souls in limbo?

If that is so, Revelation 20 is being fulfilled now.

 

[Timtofly]

If that is so, Revelation 20 is being fulfilled now.

The church was already raptured and completed? We are not the church then and Jesus Christ is reigning from Jerusalem.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The church was already raptured and completed? We are not the church then and Jesus Christ is reigning from Jerusalem.

You are contradicting yourself. You seem to know Christ is the first resurrection. That occurred 2000 years ago. So we must be in Revelation 20 now.

 

[Timtofly]

You are contradicting yourself. You seem to know Christ is the first resurrection. That occurred 2000 years ago. So we must be in Revelation 20 now.

No that is your false theology that is contradicting God's Word. You cannot prove that Revelation 20:4 happened 1990.5 years ago. I have asked you many times in the last few months, and you have avoided the chance every time. The church is not involved in the Revelation 20:4 Resurrection. It is physical, and you claim the one at the Cross is spiritual. Take your pick. I claim the one on the Cross was both physical and spiritual, and you claimed it could not be physical. You are the one stuck with your false interpretation, not me.

 

[sovereigngrace]

No that is your false theology that is contradicting God's Word. You cannot prove that Revelation 20:4 happened 1990.5 years ago. I have asked you many times in the last few months, and you have avoided the chance every time. The church is not involved in the Revelation 20:4 Resurrection. It is physical, and you claim the one at the Cross is spiritual. Take your pick. I claim the one on the Cross was both physical and spiritual, and you claimed it could not be physical. You are the one stuck with your false interpretation, not me.

The whole of Christ's ministry involved the binding of the demonic realm. The Greek word deo (bound) refers to restrain and curtailment in Scripture.

Satan had to be dominated, overcome and then restricted in order that the darkened nations could be enlightened and consequently liberated.

He had to be put on a spiritual chain (bound). Satan is a prisoner on a chain. Demons are prisoners in chains. Christ not only has authority over them, but he has also given us His people authority over them.

Jesus said just prior to His death in Matthew 12:28-29, “if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you … how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind (or deo) the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.”

Before we go any further let us establish 1st that this is referring to His earthly ministry.

Secondly, when it talks about Satan and his kingdom being bound, being in chains or being imprisoned it is not talking about physical metal chains a physical brick prison because Satan is not a physical being. He is a spiritual being. It is talking about a spiritual condition of restraint that curtails him in regard to his influence and power.

Mark 3:11, 23-27 also records: “unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God ... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind (or deo) the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

Jesus said in the corresponding passage in Luke 11:20-22, “if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.”

Here, Christ highlights the Sovereign power of the kingdom of God and reveals how the “strong man” – Satan – and his kingdom of devils can only be defeated by One that is stronger than them, namely Himself – the Son of God. As we examine the gospels we discover, Satan was stripped everywhere that Christ confronted him. The Lord entered the devil’s house and took authority over him and spoilt His goods. Previously, Satan's grip on the nations was so strong and so embedded that the truth of God's Word could not penetrate through. The devil overwhelmingly controlled the Gentile nations.

 

[Timtofly]

The whole of Christ's ministry involved the binding of the demonic realm. The Greek word deo (bound) refers to restrain and curtailment in Scripture.

Satan had to be dominated, overcome and then restricted in order that the darkened nations could be enlightened and consequently liberated.

He had to be put on a spiritual chain (bound). Satan is a prisoner on a chain. Demons are prisoners in chains. Christ not only has authority over them, but he has also given us His people authority over them.

Jesus said just prior to His death in Matthew 12:28-29, “if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you … how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind (or deo) the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.”

Before we go any further let us establish 1st that this is referring to His earthly ministry.

Secondly, when it talks about Satan and his kingdom being bound, being in chains or being imprisoned it is not talking about physical metal chains a physical brick prison because Satan is not a physical being. He is a spiritual being. It is talking about a spiritual condition of restraint that curtails him in regard to his influence and power.

Mark 3:11, 23-27 also records: “unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God ... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind (or deo) the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

Jesus said in the corresponding passage in Luke 11:20-22, “if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.”

Here, Christ highlights the Sovereign power of the kingdom of God and reveals how the “strong man” – Satan – and his kingdom of devils can only be defeated by One that is stronger than them, namely Himself – the Son of God. As we examine the gospels we discover, Satan was stripped everywhere that Christ confronted him. The Lord entered the devil’s house and took authority over him and spoilt His goods. Previously, Satan's grip on the nations was so strong and so embedded that the truth of God's Word could not penetrate through. The devil overwhelmingly controlled the Gentile nations.

Your verses here prove one thing. We have power over wickedness in high places. Does not help the Nations one bit. No Nation is totally 100% submitted to the power of the Holy Spirit, much less willing to use it.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Your verses here prove one thing. We have power over wickedness in high places. Does not help the Nations one bit. No Nation is totally 100% submitted to the power of the Holy Spirit, much less willing to use it.

Once again, it seems impossible to get Premils to address hard Scripture. These prove the Amil paradigm.

 

[Timtofly]

Once again, it seems impossible to get Premils to address hard Scripture. These prove the Amil paradigm.

That those verses apply to nations is your private interpretation. Nations is not mentioned once. It is a parable of a house run by Satan spiritually. Demons are not nations. They are spirits of reprobate humans. Government is Nations and the way people govern themselves. Being deceived is not mentioned once in those verses. It is not about spiritual deception one iota. It is not even about physical deception of Satan.

This creation is not a planet in a solar system. That is a mathematical deception given to the Greeks by Satan. Your verses do not mention this deception one iota. You are taking points about being able to cast out demons and applying them, via private interpretation, not backed up any where else in Scripture to these few verses about a totally unrelated "Satan deceiving the Nations" phenomenon.

Is evolution a demon to be cast out of people? Are self governed people a demonic phenomenon? Why do you interpret these verses to imply that point? Do you have to defend your rejection of Revelation 20 as written? If Revelation 20 was not in the Bible, no one, I mean no one would be talking about a future millennium. If you can prove the whole church from 200AD on, had no clue about a millennium using whatever vocabulary of the day, I may agree with you, although the chapter would not be here to make a point for or against. The chapter is in the book of Revelation, and nothing you can do to just wish it away. All I have been doing it pointing out the nonsense of amil. I am not here to defend or create a brand new doctrine or theology. It is the end of doctrine and theology period. It is only guess work as you so aptly point out. Even amil is just guessing at eschatology. Always has been, will be for only a short time more, thank God.

 

[sovereigngrace]

That those verses apply to nations is your private interpretation. Nations is not mentioned once. It is a parable of a house run by Satan spiritually. Demons are not nations. They are spirits of reprobate humans. Government is Nations and the way people govern themselves. Being deceived is not mentioned once in those verses. It is not about spiritual deception one iota. It is not even about physical deception of Satan.

This creation is not a planet in a solar system. That is a mathematical deception given to the Greeks by Satan. Your verses do not mention this deception one iota. You are taking points about being able to cast out demons and applying them, via private interpretation, not backed up any where else in Scripture to these few verses about a totally unrelated "Satan deceiving the Nations" phenomenon.

Is evolution a demon to be cast out of people? Are self governed people a demonic phenomenon? Why do you interpret these verses to imply that point? Do you have to defend your rejection of Revelation 20 as written? If Revelation 20 was not in the Bible, no one, I mean no one would be talking about a future millennium. If you can prove the whole church from 200AD on, had no clue about a millennium using whatever vocabulary of the day, I may agree with you, although the chapter would not be here to make a point for or against. The chapter is in the book of Revelation, and nothing you can do to just wish it away. All I have been doing it pointing out the nonsense of amil. I am not here to defend or create a brand new doctrine or theology. It is the end of doctrine and theology period. It is only guess work as you so aptly point out. Even amil is just guessing at eschatology. Always has been, will be for only a short time more, thank God.

You cannot help misrepresting Amil. That is the only way Premil survives.

 

[sovereigngrace]

That those verses apply to nations is your private interpretation. Nations is not mentioned once. It is a parable of a house run by Satan spiritually. Demons are not nations. They are spirits of reprobate humans. Government is Nations and the way people govern themselves. Being deceived is not mentioned once in those verses. It is not about spiritual deception one iota. It is not even about physical deception of Satan.

This creation is not a planet in a solar system. That is a mathematical deception given to the Greeks by Satan. Your verses do not mention this deception one iota. You are taking points about being able to cast out demons and applying them, via private interpretation, not backed up any where else in Scripture to these few verses about a totally unrelated "Satan deceiving the Nations" phenomenon.

Is evolution a demon to be cast out of people? Are self governed people a demonic phenomenon? Why do you interpret these verses to imply that point? Do you have to defend your rejection of Revelation 20 as written? If Revelation 20 was not in the Bible, no one, I mean no one would be talking about a future millennium. If you can prove the whole church from 200AD on, had no clue about a millennium using whatever vocabulary of the day, I may agree with you, although the chapter would not be here to make a point for or against. The chapter is in the book of Revelation, and nothing you can do to just wish it away. All I have been doing it pointing out the nonsense of amil. I am not here to defend or create a brand new doctrine or theology. It is the end of doctrine and theology period. It is only guess work as you so aptly point out. Even amil is just guessing at eschatology. Always has been, will be for only a short time more, thank God.

This is the dark little secret that all Premils want to hide in the closet. That is why they must avoid it.

 

[Timtofly]

This is the dark little secret that all Premils want to hide in the closet. That is why they must avoid it.

Well it is time for pre-mills to confess to the whole world Amillennialism is of the devil and needs to be exposed. It is no longer a dirty little secret to hide. I am pretty sure that is what you took from my post. Trying to figure out your point is a lot harder at other times.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Well it is time for pre-mills to confess to the whole world Amillennialism is of the devil and needs to be exposed. It is no longer a dirty little secret to hide. I am pretty sure that is what you took from my post. Trying to figure out your point is a lot harder at other times.

I was talking about the Op.

 

[Timtofly]

I was talking about the Op.

The strawman fallacy about the church?