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Featured Surely Premils must invent 2 future glorifications days separated by 1000 years+?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by sovereigngrace, Oct 15, 2020.

  1. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Please answer the question. Where are they?
     
  2. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Member

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    But, wouldn't they be mortal? Do you see them as living forever on the new earth despite being mortal? Or do you think they would all eventually die? If so, what happens to them after they die and where does scripture speak of that?
     
  3. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    True. Why would there be such a thing as age if we are all to go onto eternity and skip the Millennium? The environment will be vastly improved on earth for those days.

    Well? Look here... Sinners were living to be over eight hundred years old prior to the earth change that took place after Noah's flood. Therefore, fallen man can live for a long time under the right conditions.

    The new heavens and new earth of the Millennium will have an ideal environment. Perfect food, air, and no fake news.

    "Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days,
    or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies
    at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails
    to reach a hundred will be considered accursed."
    -
    Isa 65:20


    That speaks of the Millennium. After all? If we are all to simply all enter into eternity? No one would age, nor die in eternity! In the Millennium a person not reaching age 100 will be seen as a mere child. Death will still be with them as a potential.

    grace and peace........
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
  4. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    First, you have not actually addressed the contradiction I am highlighting here: contrary to what Premils indicate there is going to have to be a 2nd glorification of man and the earth, including a rapture of the millennial saints, after Satan's little season. Premils will not acknowledge this.

    Second, the problem is not the environment, it is the human heart. It is sinful and rebellious. And that is why we die. Also, nowhere does it talk about these extended life-spans in Rev 20. You force NHNE passages into this imaginary future millennium. You have to. Premil has zero corroboration for all its main tenets. A wicked heart will still be a wicked heart and will pay the consequences in any environment.


    I have addressed this many times with Premils. I will represent.

    The NHNE comes after the millennium/Satan's season not at the beginning as you argue. Check Rev 20 and 21. Where is a future millennium mentioned in Isaiah 65:19-25? Nowhere! Premils force their beliefs into the sacred text where it does not belong. This is called eisegesis not exegesis. Text, context and co-text do not seem to matter to them.

    Let us let the Bible speaks for itself!

    Isaiah 65:17-21 declares, “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.”

    The one thing we know for sure is that Scripture does not contradict itself in any way. The way some theologians explain this passage would lead you to believe that this passage is the one exception to this rule in Scripture. Of course, we know it isn’t (or can’t be). This much-debated passage before us must therefore beautifully correlates with other similar Scripture, which informs us that the Coming of Christ is climactic and that the new earth is totally free of the curse. It is essential that we always interpret difficult passages like this with other clearer and simpler passages.

    The first thing we see in this reading is the time period in view; the Old Testament prophet explains that he is specifically speaking of the “new heavens and a new earth.” This is indisputable and cannot be a matter for theological debate. Whilst there are challenging parts to this passage, we can be sure of the fact that the detail described will be fulfilled in the “new heavens and a new earth.” In fact, the wording is so explicit in relation to the time-period that it removes any ambiguity or uncertainty for the reader on that front. This is the first absolute we can establish with this reading.

    Allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture and not imposing a private interpretation on this Old Testament chapter means letting New Testament Scripture locate the “new heavens and a new earth.” Various passages show the removal of the old corrupt heavens and earth at the coming of Christ and their replacement with the new perfect heavens and earth. Jesus teaches in Matthew 24:35-37: Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be.”

    Revelation expressly locates the new earth after the millennial period and not at the beginning. Revelation 21:1-5 tells us: I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

    This is beyond dispute. Any other understanding is contradicting Scripture. Notwithstanding, this doesn’t stop some Bible students forcing this passage into a supposed future millennium in between this current age and the new heavens and a new earth in the age to come. This can only occur if one is to ignore the setting clearly outlined by the Holy Ghost elsewhere in Holy Writ.

    The next absolute we know from interpreting Scripture with Scripture is that there is no sin or corruption in the new heavens or on the new earth. There is therefore no death or decay, sickness or rebellion. It is a perfect holy environment that is free of iniquity. 2 Peter 3:13 confirms: we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” The Bible makes clear that this current earth is purged at the Second Coming of all the repercussions of the fall and perfected for His glory.

    Let us have a literal word-by-word look at the Hebrew pertaining to Isaiah 65:20.

    לֹא־יִֽהְיֶ֨ה מִשָּׁ֜ם עֹ֗וד ע֤וּל יָמִים֙ וְזָקֵ֔ן אֲשֶׁ֥ר

    Lo'- yihªyeh mishaam `owd `uwl yaamiym wªzaaqeen 'ªsher
    Not be hence more an infant [of] days, an old man after


    לֹא־
    lō-
    Not

    יִֽהְיֶ֨ה
    yih-yeh
    Be

    מִשָּׁ֜ם
    miš-šām
    Hence

    ע֗וֹד
    ‘ō-wḏ,
    More

    ע֤וּל
    ‘ūl
    an infant

    יָמִים֙
    yā-mîm
    [of] days

    וְזָקֵ֔ן
    wə-zā-qên,
    an old man

    אֲשֶׁ֥ר
    ’ă-šer
    After

    What is this telling us?

    Basically: a child will never become old on the new earth.

    לֹֽא־יְמַלֵּ֖א אֶת־יָמָ֑יו כִּ֣י הַנַּ֗עַר בֶּן־מֵאָ֤ה שָׁנָה֙ יָמ֔וּת

    Lo'- yªmalee''et- yaamaayw Kiy hana`ar ben- mee'aah shaanaah yaamuwt
    Not fulfill your days inasmuch a child old an hundred years die


    לֹֽא־
    lō-
    Not

    יְמַלֵּ֖א
    yə-mal-lê
    Fulfill

    אֶת־
    ’eṯ-
    Your

    יָמָ֑יו
    yā-māw;
    Days

    כִּ֣י

    Inasmuch

    הַנַּ֗עַר
    han-na-‘ar,
    a child

    בֶּן־
    ben-
    Old

    מֵאָ֤ה
    mê-’āh
    Hundred

    שָׁנָה֙
    šā-nāh
    Years

    יָמ֔וּת
    yā-mūṯ,
    Die

    What is this telling us?

    The exact same thing, only in different terms.

    This is called synonymous parallelism. It is telling us that a child will never become old on the new earth. This line reinforces what has just been said. It confirms the thought of the impending reality of no more death in the eternal state for the righteous. In eternity there will be no more aging or dying. It is not going to be like our corrupt age where infants eventually get old. It will not be like the here-and-now where a man could live to be an old person of a hundred years of age and then die.

    This passage is actually saying the opposite to what many think. What this is saying is: there will be no more ageing, curse or death on the new earth. Every glorified saints will have come to full maturity in Christ with their new perfect eternal bodies. It is the next line of Isaiah 65:20 that has confused many, because the translators have not interpreted it in a literal word-for-word sense. It is not saying there will be more babies, death and old men. It is saying the opposite to what they are alleging. It is saying that there will be no more aging: children getting old, old people and people dying! It is describing eternity to an Old Testament audience in terms they can grasp.

    The new heavens and new earth will indeed be a glorious victorious perfect state where death is unknown. God is saying that the eternal state will actually be free of death for young and old alike. This passage is telling us that there will be no more death on the new earth! The Hebrew word Lo' (Strong’s 3808) means “no” or “not.” The word is a simple negation. The word is found twice in this much-debated new heavens and new earth verse.

    Debate in Isaiah 65:20 centers in on the use of the original word yaamuw meaning “die” or “death.” What should we relate it to? Is there indeed “death” on the new earth? Also, should the death be related to the “child” in the second phrase or the “sinner” in the third phrase? What is more, in what way should it read? I must admit, if we are to read it in its most natural way it fits perfectly with the context. So why change it? I believe it should be applied to the “child” as it should agree with the first phrase that is simply a reinforcement of the same truth. It then fits perfectly with the whole overall teaching of the prophet on the perfection and bliss of the eternal state.

    No (Lo') longer will an infant become like an old man,
    No
    (Lo') longer will a child reach one hundred and die.

    The original Hebrew does not give us any reason to attribute death to the “child” in this second line. In fact, it does not fit the whole context which is evidently speaking of the removal of ageing and death on the new earth. Interpreting it as we have, seems to (1) match the original, (2) make sense to its context, and (3) taps into the thrust of what the prophet was trying to relay. We need to remind ourselves that the whole idea here is describing the incredible eternal deliverance from the curse of corruption and the joy that “the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind” on the “new earth.”
     
  5. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Isaiah 65:20 is often used by some as a reference to the millennium, by ripping it out of its context.


    New Heavens and a New Earth (This subtitle is found in eSword.)

    Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
    Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
    Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
    Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
    Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
    Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
    Isa 65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
    Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
    Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.


    The passage starts out by revealing it to be in the New Heavens and the New Earth, instead of during the millennium. Read what Peter said about this earth, and the New Heavens and New Earth, in 2 Peter 3:10-13.

    There is no more crying in the verse before verse 20.

    We find the end of the curse in verse 25.

    Therefore, there cannot be people dying in verse 20.
    Instead, we find the verse starting with a negative statement. "There will be no more then..."
    Everything that follows the word "then" will not be found in the New Heavens and the New Earth.

    It would be as if I said.... "There will be no more... mosquitos, ticks, fire ants," etc.


    .
     
  6. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    First of all. There is to be no rapture of the Millennial saints. Theirs will be a direct transformation into eternal bodies, not a rapture. They do not die and become resurrected. They are to be given a new body that will be immortal. As for the Church? We will already be enjoying our unique resurrection bodies. Glorious bodies just like His own body.
     
  7. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    You are not connected to the big picture.


    During the Millennium the Lord will rule with an Iron Scepter. Smashing of some people if they rebel and disobey Him.

    To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give
    authority over the nations— that one ‘will rule them with an iron
    scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have
    received authority from my Father."
    Rev 2:26-27​


    Death will still take place. That why its says' "accursed."


    "Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days,
    or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies
    at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails
    to reach a hundred will be considered accursed." -
    Isa 65:20


    See that? Your angle is mere confusing spin. Someone has been keeping you from knowing the truth.
     
  8. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Do you have hard Scripture or are you winging it?
     
  9. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Once again, you totally sidestepped all of my points and Scripture.

    When does Revelation show the NHNE arrive - before or after the millennium?
     
  10. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    Its you who need to show with Scripture that the Millennial saints will be raptured. We do know from Scripture that no one obeying the Lord will die during the one thousand years. They will be alive when the Millennial reign on earth ends. Since they do not die, they will become immediately transformed into their new bodies for eternity... just like those in the Church who are living will be immediately transformed in the Rapture. In a twinkling of an eye it will happen.
     
  11. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    New Heavens and New Earth happens twice.

    First the Millennium.

    Then the Lord will burn up the universe in a nuclear fusion/fission (elements will melt) and begin with an eternal new heavens and new earth. This one is to be called the "Home of Righteousness." 2 Peter 3:13

    The Millennium with all its unbelievers could hardly be called the home of righteousness. The Second NHNE will be Home for all who believe. Everyone will feel right at home wherever they are and travel to.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
  12. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    You are avoiding again. Where is your Scripture?
     
  13. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Really? Jesus and the NT writers only recognized 2 ages. Because you have zero corroboration for Premil opinion of Rev 20, you have to invent an age in- between "this age" and "the age to come." The Premil millennium is a dumping ground for every possible passage relating to the current last days and the one-and-only NHNE that arrives at the second coming.
     
  14. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    There is no Scripture for that. That is why I was asking for what is used to justify taking that position.

    What I did was give you what is to actually happen. But, instead of taking note, you keep demanding that I defend some premil position that I do not take.
     
  15. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    You have nothing. While pretending to have something.

    Then demand that I defend positions that are self explanatory by what was given.

    To me, that spells a tunnel vision, closed mind.


    Stop gaslighting me and others, please.

    :angel:... thank you.
     
  16. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    We work from absolutes. This earth will flee away from the presence of Him on the GWT. Amils obviously see that as the second coming. You have to do something with your millennial mortals. Amils do not believe anyone who is not glorified survives the second coming. You force billions of mortal Satan worshippers into your supposed future Millennium who overun your Millennium as the sand of the sea. You then have to furnish us with what happens to them at your 3rd coming of Christ after Satan's little season.
     
  17. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    Common sense from what is read that people will still be procreating and being born.


    No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
    or plant and others eat.
    For as the days of a tree,
    so will be the days of my people;
    my chosen ones will long enjoy
    the work of their hands.
    They will not labor in vain,
    nor will they bear children doomed to misfortune;
    for they will be a people blessed by the Lord,
    they and their descendants with them."
    Isa 65:22-23​


    There will be no more sexual reproduction in the Final New heavens and new earth. No more sea. And, no more sun to light the world.

    I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty
    and the Lamb are its temple. The city does not need the sun or
    the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings
    of the earth will bring their splendor into it."
    Rev 21:22-23

    Yet, there will be a seas and water in the the new earth of the Millennium.


    "I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim and the horse from Jerusalem; the battle bow shall be cut off. He shall speak peace to the nations; His dominion shall be 'from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth.' " Zechariah 9:10


    But? In the second New heavens and Earth there will be no more seas!


    "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more." Rev 21:1

    The first earth passes away because it will be burned up (with the entire universe)
    like 2 Peter 3:10, tells us!

    But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare."

    Nuclear fusion/fission! " For the elements will be destroyed by fire."

    Its the same Greek word used for Chemistry class to classify the "elements"

     
  18. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Well-Known Member

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    Jesus didn't give signs of 60 pound hailstones, demon armies, and water turning to blood as signs before His coming to His disciples, Paul wrote that we're not appointed to wrath, Isaiah wrote that there's a resurrection followed by hiding from Indignation in Isaiah 26:19-21, and the Lord's wrath begins after the 6th seal but before the trumpets in Revelation 6:12-17. Shown again in Revelation 14:14-20 before the 7 bowls. The fifth trumpet lasts 5 months so it's not a single day of judgement.

    Meaning that Jesus comes back, resurrects and gathers His elect as in 1 Thessalonians 4 and Matthew 24, THEN delivers His wrath that takes bare minimum 5 months.

    There is a period of time then after the rapture but before Armageddon, where there's 144,000 preaching the gospel, so, people can still get saved or what's the point of preaching the Gospel? Revelation 11:13 has the remnant in Jerusalem all giving glory to God, I interpret that as God fulfilling His promise that Israel will be saved. But this is right before the 7th trumpet judgement, the wrath of God has been going on for months now, and Jesus had already come back in the clouds. If Israel is saved before the 7th trumpet judgement but after the wrath of God has already begun and they missed the rapture, then what? There is no resurrection for them?
    Revelation 20 does give them a resurrection, after the millennium.
     
  19. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Again, total avoidance. You are ducking some core NT truths. You are inventing an age unknown to Jesus and the NT writers.
     
  20. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    Stop using code words if you wish to communicate. Too much time is wasted because of your laziness and presumption. I am sure I know what GWT is. Just not as you present it in your ploy to frustrate and obfuscate.

    Careful... you can be counter-sued.
     
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