Surely Premils must invent 2 future glorifications days separated by 1000 years+?

[Jamdoc]

What kind of logic is this? Is God not the One who inspired all of the New Testament, including Revelation and Paul's epistles? What they wrote was what God inspired them to write. Do you think God was not aware of the Revelation trumpets until John wrote the book? That would be ridiculous, right?

God, already knowing then what He would later inspire John to write down in the book of Revelation, inspired Paul to say that the trumpet that sounds when we are changed unto bodily immortality, is the last trumpet. Paul would not have known exactly what that meant in terms of how it would relate to the book of Revelation since it hadn't been written yet, but God did.

You make the last trumpet not really the last trumpet in any sense. That is a flaw in your doctrine.

Paul was writing to communicate to the Corinthians. It'd make no sense for him to refer to things that would be in books written decades after, to people who had no knowledge of a book written in the future.
Put yourself in the shoes of a 1st century believer, with only the old testament to go off of, and these letters that Paul was writing to you after He came and taught you about Jesus. Maybe they had Matthew, because I think Matthew was written in the 40's AD? I can't put an exact date.
If Paul came telling you about the last Trumpet, would you be thinking "oh the 7 trumpet judgements in Revelation.. okay" or would you think about something you would actually have in that old testament?
A letter is meaningless if it's not communicating anything to the people it was written to.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy this explanation at all. It's pure speculation with no biblical support in terms of the feast of trumpets having anything to do with the return of Christ. Where does scripture itself indicate that the feast of trumpets has anything to do with the second coming of Christ? Nowhere. Please stop making wild speculations and stick to what scripture actually says in relation to the second coming.

The trumpets that we do know relate to the second coming of Christ are the ones mentioned in the book of Revelation. The seventh trumpet in particular must have something to do with the time when He comes because at that point "The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

The last trumpet is the last prophetic trumpet to sound and we know from the book of Revelation that it will be the last of the seven trumpets.

Jesus was our passover lamb 1 Corinthians 5:7
He was buried in the feast of unleavened bread, in the gospels, and even referred to by Paul in 1 Corinthians again...
He is the firstfruits 1 Corinthians 15:20.. I am only now noticing that this is all 1 Corinthians btw.. including the last trumpet reference.
and we know what happened at Pentecost (Acts 2)
So you mean to tell me, that the first feast days all had prophetic fulfillments, and Paul referred to them in 1 Corinthians
But the last 3 feasts, will be nothingburgers, and in 1 Corinthians where Paul talks about trumpets it has nothing to do with feasts even though He was referring to feasts before?
If I was a first century believer, with nothing but the old testament, and Paul wrote to me about a last trumpet, especially after referring to the crucifixion as our Passover, and the feast of unleavened bread, and the firstfruits..
I'd be thinking about the call of awakening in the feast of trumpets. Not somehow knowing about 7 trumpet judgements
A festival that cannot be declared ahead of time, and has to be sighted by 2 witnesses.

The only wrath we need to be hidden from is the final wrath of fire that comes down on the entire earth on the day Christ returns.

Considering only 144k are protected from the other wrath of God events, I think we'd need to be hidden away from all the vegetation being burned up and the water being undrinkable and all the fish in the sea dying too. Otherwise God would just be killing us.

We are saved by faith. What faith would anyone need after seeing Jesus in all His glory?

The faith that not only does Jesus/God exist, but that He's good and we're bad and deserve this wrath.
Yeah they'd see Him, but they'd see Him in wrath and destruction. It's still going to take faith to believe that Jesus is righteous in doing this.
Not to mention, while some people will understand that it is Jesus that is in the clouds, other people may think it's an Alien invasion. Satan's been conditioning us for that for a long time. War of the worlds, Independence Day, the Avengers movies. Remember, there's a strong delusion sent out at that time. It may be a miracle for anyone to come to saving faith during it.

I don't see how Rev 14:13 has anything to do with what you're saying here. Can you explain what you're asking more specifically? Please tell me how you interpret that verse first so that I can understand what you're asking.

I thought I was being clear, that if this is the day the Lord comes back, and we both agree that believers are raptured up before the world is destroyed, then who dies in the Lord after that point?

 

[Jamdoc]

Revelation 19 talks about Jesus coming down from heaven while being on a horse with a sword in His mouth. Doesn't that picture establish that what is described there is figurative rather than literal? I mean, you don't really believe that Jesus will have a sword coming out of His mouth that He will use to "smite the nations" (Rev 19:15) when He returns, do you? I doubt it.

So, with that in mind, how could it be that Rev 19:11-21 describes the literal way that the destruction will occur rather than describing it figuratively?

Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.” 19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army.

Is this really saying that an angel will literally be standing on the sun crying out in a loud voice to all the birds (He must be REALLY loud)? Just try to picture that. It's not literal anymore than the beast is literal. Look at the description of "the kings of the earth and their armies". You really think that people will be riding horses while trying to attack the King of kings and Lord of lords? This is clearly all figurative. But not fictional. If figuratively describes the real event of Christ's second coming.

It is figuratively describing the very real destruction that will come down when Christ returns. But, notice how John expands the scope of this destruction beyond just the "kings, generals, and the mighty". He indicates that this destruction will affect "all people" whether free or slave, great or small. It's ironic that premil takes all of this so literally but then does not take the reference to "all people" literally.

Believers will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air at that point, so the "all people" refers to all unbelieving people remaining on the earth at that time. The mention of "all people, free and slave, small and great" is inclusive language to indicate that there will be no exceptions among Christ's enemies as far as who will be destroyed at that time. That matches up perfectly with Matt 24:36-39 and 2 Peter 3:3-13 which both indicate that all unbelievers on the earth will be destroyed when Christ returns just as all unbelievers were destroyed by the flood in Noah's day.

To back up what I said regarding how "all people, free and slave, small and great" should be understood as literally all unbelievers, read this:

Rev 13:15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads,

This refers to all living unbelievers receiving the mark of the beast without exception. I say without exception because it says "all people" and indicates that there it includes "great and small, rich and poor, free and slave". How does that allow for any exceptions? John had previously indicated that "all inhabitants of the earth" whose names are "not written in the Lamb's book of life" will worship the beast. Everyone who worships the beast surely would also receive its mark.

So you want to take "all people" literally, when you yourself admit that some gentiles feared the Lord in the old testament times when the old testament treated all gentiles as heathens? It's a generalization but I don't consider it exhaustive. Not everyone, even among unsaved people, will take the mark of the beast, the angel warns people not to, so that means it's not some instantaneous thing, it takes time to implement, and not everyone has gotten it yet, so some people can have their doubts and not take it.
The beast DEMANDS that everyone get the mark, it doesn't say that everyone actually got it, unless you believe that the beast has the power to actually cause it to happen all around the world even among uncontacted people like the Sentinelese, in an instant.

 

[Jamdoc]

How many would get saved? As many as the sand on the seashore, which must be a huge number? Because that's how many unsaved it says there will be at the end of the thousand years.

Rev 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

How does it make sense that despite Christ being on the earth in all His glory for 1000 years, a number "like the sand on the seashore" rebel at the end? What would be the reason for that? Seems like seeing Christ in all His glory and seeing peace on the earth would be appealing to people and make them want to worship Him forever, not rebel against Him.

It could be as few as even 1 person.
Jesus would suffer that 1 person 1000 years if in the end, they came to faith.
To be fair, during the millennium Christ is said to rule the nations with a rod of iron, dashing the nations to pieces like clay pots.
It's going to be a pretty harsh, but fair, rule, a lot of people will rebel against that, and it'll take some doing to view this supposed dictator with His strict rule of law as your savior.

 

[Jamdoc]

anyway, this is taking too long
key point
Amillennialists talk about premillennialists taking things too literally yet you take the "day of the Lord" which is also described as a year of recompences, as a literal 24 hour day, when you shouldn't, because In Isaiah 34 and 63, it's referred by those 2 units of time interchangeably in the same verses.
If you come to the realization that it is NOT a literal 24 hour period, and stop being literal about mentions of "all people" as if they have no exceptions whatsoever, when there's ALWAYS exceptions when it comes to generalities, not all the Gentiles were unbelievers despite being treated that way in the OT
I think you'd rethink your eschatology.
Because amill absolutely relies on a literal 24 hour day of the Lord.
Replies to this thread are taking too long to type out otherwise, so I'll leave you with that.
Isaiah 34:8 Isaiah 63:4 I cannot stress them enough.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You seem to forget SG that God is omniscient (all knowing) so why would He expect fallen man to do something they could never do? Why? That makes God unfair at the least.

You are too `us` centred and not Christ centred and His purposes. We are a heavenly nation whereas God made Israel an earthly nation and they will fulfil what He made them for with Christ ruling over them through their regent King, David, as God`s word tells us.

Did you even read my post? Obviously not, or else you are deliberately trying to misrepresent what I wrote. It is you and your Dispy friends who are obsessed with Israel and the old covenant.

Amils are focused on Christ. They see no further covenant or blood slaughter for centuries during some imaginary future millennium. That is fanciful. They believe Christ was the final sacrifice for sin.

God gave the Law, not to save but to expose the sinful heart of man. He knew man would or could never keep the Law. Only God's perfect Son could do so. That is why Christ was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth. He was predestined to come and save man. The Law was the school master to point man to Christ. Christ is the fulfillment of the Law. Your fascination and fixation with promoting the restoration of the abolished old covenant is deeply troubling.

Dispensationalism undermines the cross-work because it wrongly insists Christ came to set up a physical earthly OT-style kingdom instead of die for mans sin. When the Jews rejected this, the purposes of God were thwarted and God's plan was suspended until some imaginary future millennial kingdom where all the old covenant apparatus would be fully restored.

This false doctrine is unbiblical and should be rejected by every Bible-believing Christian.

 

[BABerean2]

So to you also BB, We know that God is omniscient, so why would He make a nation and call them His own, and expect them to carry out His requirements, when He knew they couldn`t? Why? That makes God unfair at the least.

God has lots of promised for Israel through Christ and they are not promised to us.

If you think God did not fulfill His promises to the Jewish people through the sacrifice of His Son at Calvary, you need to throw your Bible in the trash can.


Do you understand the two different groups of Israelites in Romans 11:1-5?
Do you understand the difference between the Baal worshipers, and the faithful "remnant"?


.

 

[BABerean2]

I'm not saying there is no bodily resurrection of the dead recorded in that passage. Of course there is. But in context it is only involving the saved dead and not also the unsaved dead as well, therefore this doesn't even involve the great white throne judgment recorded in Revelation 20. It involves a judgment though, and is recorded in both Daniel 7:22 and Revelation 20:4, and is meaning when the time has come that the saints have possessed the kingdom.

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


.

 

[sovereigngrace]

If you think God did not fulfill His promises to the Jewish people through the sacrifice of His Son at Calvary, you need to throw your Bible in the trash can.


Do you understand the two different groups of Israelites in Romans 11:1-5?
Do you understand the difference between the Baal worshipers, and the faithful "remnant"?


.

Obviously not. Only that faithful remnant were considered true Israel.

 

[Timtofly]

All people from all-time will stand before the throne that day to give an account of themselves. Is that not exactly what Rev 20:11-15 portrays? And Matthew 25:31-46 as well? I believe so.

Revelation 20 also states 1000 years, and you do not take that as literal. What is the point in proclaiming Revelation 20 is the literal judgment for all of humanity? There was also a judgment pronounced at the beginning of the 1000 years. Is that literal as well? So some people will literally be judged several times over and over again in their existence.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

....The Isaiah verses I quoted were about the end times where God dealing out His wrath to the world, at the end of the world... similar imagery of Jesus having His clothes soaked in blood after having tread the winepress of the wrath of God... same imagery given in Revelation 14 and 19. It's the same "day of the Lord" your referring to, the second coming, the heavens rolling up like a scroll, etc etc...
and in those verses it's given as both a day and a year...
... and you still insist on literal 24 hour day.
Exhausting. Read Isaiah rather than assume it's referring to something different.

I have read Isaiah plenty of times. It's insulting for you to imply otherwise.

It's time to agree to disagree on the meaning of "the day of the Lord". You just admitted that it's "exhausting" and I have to agree.

I see 2 cycles of tribulation, rapture, wrath, and final judgement. Chapters 6-11 with 10 being definitely parenthetical, and chapters 12-20, with chapter 17 definitely being parenthetical. I'd almost be willing to listen to an argument that chapter 20 was not part of the second vision and could be a 3rd vision but...
Revelation 20:10 shows the beast and false prophet. People who were introduced in this second vision that Paul saw of end times events, and so it connect it to chapter 13, and logic would dictate, places it after chapter 19, when Jesus throws the beast and false prophet into the lake of fire.
Note the false prophet wasn't mentioned in the first vision, and the beast was only mentioned once. The beast is only formally introduced in the second vision.

I've seen this argument before, but I don't find it to be a strong one. If Rev 19 and 20 are not chronological, as I believe, then that simply means that the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire shortly before Satan is. Similar to how death and Hades (or hell) are cast in just before those whose names are not written in the book of life. This is not a problem for amil at all.

So I do see recapitulation, but more continuity than you do.

I respect that you at least do see some recapitulation. I think that's very unusual for any premil to see any recapitulation in the book whether they're pre-trib, pre-wrath or post-trib.

Only when you interpret "day of the Lord" literally.

I'm not used to getting criticized by a premil for being too literal. It's a strange feeling.

When I believe there are 2 end time's resurrections, because I believe that the wrath of God happens after the rapture, I have no reason whatsoever, to see the 1000 years as anything other than literal, Because I know that there's a resurrection before the wrath, and another resurrection after the wrath before the final judgement, that gives time between resurrections, not to mention those resurrections have different characteristics. one is blessed and not under judgement where the second death is a possible outcome, the other is judgement and death is on the line.
Because there has to be some time between, why not go with what the bible says is the time between and believe it is 1000 years?

Because it doesn't line up with many passages of scripture as I've told you before. I've shown you several of those already.

A number of passages show all believers and unbelievers being resurrected and judged when Christ returns at the end of the age which doesn't allow for a 1000 year gap in between. Also, several passages show all living unbelievers being destroyed when Christ comes which would not allow for any mortals to survive into an earthly millennial kingdom (all believers would have mortal bodies at that point).

It doesn't have to be exactly 1000 years, but that's the only scripture to go off of that gives any length of time between the two resurrections, so sure, 1000 years. I'll believe the word of God on that until God says otherwise.

How does that line up with the fact that the unbelieving dead are judged immediately after being resurrected and are then cast into the lake of fire as indicated in Rev 20:11-15 while Matt 25:31-46 indicates the timing of that is when Christ comes in His glory?

Revelation 20
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Matthew 25
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

In regards to unbelievers, notice the similarities between the two passages, which I color coded to highlight that.

Both passages speak of someone sitting on the throne to judge them with Matt 25 indicating that it is the Son of Man, which obviously is Jesus.

Both passages speak of all of them being judged for what they have done.

Both passages speak of unbelievers being cast into the same everlasting fire as the devil.

And, obviously, believers are rewarded at that time as well. These passages are clearly speaking of the same judgment. Only doctrinal bias would keep someone from seeing that. So, with that in mind, this places the judgment depicted in Rev 20:11-15 as occurring when Christ comes with His angels, not 1000+ years after that. That means all of Rev 20 has to occur before and up to the day that Christ comes which contradicts your understanding of the events of Rev 20 following the events of Rev 19 chronologically.

Jesus will return, it doesn't mean He is forbidden from going back to Heaven after to get married and come back down with His bride on whatever sweet ride the horse is supposed to be if that's figurative. Isaiah 34 describes unicorns so.. who knows.

Do you believe the wedding with His bride has already occurred before Rev 19? If so, that can't be since it says in Rev 19:7 that the time of the wedding has come and the bride has made herself ready. That means it hasn't happened yet up until that point since the bride had not been ready for the wedding yet until then. Right after that in Rev 19:11-21 it describes Jesus coming and delivering His wrath on the day He returns.

Don't you see Rev 19:11-21 as being the second future time He descends from heaven rather than the first? That can't be because He will have not been married to His bride yet until then, as Rev 19:7 indicates, because she will not have been ready for the wedding until then.

What's your proof texts that He is only allowed to come down once? Again all events after He comes in the cloud are the second coming just like all events after His birth are the first coming.
The 5th trumpet lasts 5 months.

I've shared those with you several times already. How did you miss it? Have I not indicated multiple times that I believe He descends from heaven, we're caught up to Him in the air and He proceeds to destroy the wicked? No back and forth needed. And I've shown the passages to back up my view several times. But, you're still asking me this?

If this is "deceive the nations no more" then color me unimpressed.

Wow. You are not impressed with the effect that Christ's death and resurrection had on Satan and the Gentile nations? Unbelievable. I'm not impressed with your hyper-literal understanding of what "deceive the nations no more" means.

Because if it takes time, then people can come to repentence, I know you're going to quote that people DIDN'T come to repentence, but as we both agree, just like Gentiles could fear God in the OT despite most of the OT treating gentiles like they're totally in darkness and none know the Lord, most people won't repent, but some will repent, if you drag things out for some time, some of those people, those prepper types or people living in isolation types that are self sufficient who didn't take the mark out of necessity might just say as they see fire raining down from the sky "I have a bible here somewhere, maybe it's all real afterall". It is worth it to the Lord to drag things out if even 1 more sheep gets saved.

Why did Jesus say He is coming quickly if He's actually going to take His time when He comes? Sorry, but your explanation makes no sense. God is all knowing, so He will know when the exact right time will be for Christ to come and take His vengeance. Don't worry, He won't send His Son from heaven to dish out His final wrath until everyone has made their choice of whether to follow Him or reject Him. He will ensure that.

Genesis 7:11
Second month of the year, 17th day
40 days means over a month right there
and then
Genesis 7:24
the earth was flooded for 150 days after the 40 days and 40 nights. So this is already about 200 days.
Then it took awhile for it all to drain away, Noah was sending doves and ravens to see if the water was low enough to come down off the mountains, and so on, until finally
Genesis 8:14
2nd month, 27th day, the earth was dry, and Noah left the Ark
1 year, 10 days.

What is the point of this? Obviously, the unbelievers were all destroyed by the time the earth was initially flooded after the 40 days and nights. What difference does it make how long it took the water to recede? This is a waste of time.

also, not everyone is destroyed by fire during the wrath of God, that's why there's other judgements than fire, and, the first doesn't REALLY come down and become all consuming until Revelation 20, and referencing the beast and false prophet being in the lake of fire, I take it to mean after armageddon and they've been being tortured for 1000 years.
Revelation 20 is where you have an instant destruction, with no events happening afterward, just fire comes down from heaven, satan gets thrown into hell, and then the resurrection and final judgement. So there's your 2 Peter 3:10, your Zephaniah, etc.

Good grief, man. That has been my point all along. That fire that comes down from heaven in Rev 20:9 bringing instant mass destruction to a number of people "as the sand of the seashore" is the same mass destruction that Peter talks about in 2 Peter 3:3-13 as occurring when Christ returns. That places Rev 20:9 at the return of Christ rather than 1000+ years afterwards as you believe.

That means your understanding of Rev 20 speaking of 2 mass bodily resurrections separated by 1000+ years is flawed. That is the point I've been trying to make but you continually miss it because it seems you've never given Rev 20 much thought before. Instead, your sole focus is on the things that you think happen during a 7 year period of time before Christ returns.

If it weren't for the book of Revelation I'd maybe believe in instantaneous destruction at the return like you do.
But Revelation exists for a reason. It wraps up most of the old testament day of the lord prophecies and the olivet discourse and shows them in concert. It makes sense out of scramble.

This is the difference between us. You interpret the rest of scripture (or at least those prophecies you mentioned, anyway) in light of the highly symbolic and not very straightforward (but still awesome) book of Revelation. I, on the other hand, interpret the book of Revelation in light of other more clear, straightforward scriptures that don't contain a great deal of difficult (but not impossible) to discern symbolic language.[/quote]

 

[sovereigngrace]

Revelation 20 also states 1000 years, and you do not take that as literal. What is the point in proclaiming Revelation 20 is the literal judgment for all of humanity? There was also a judgment pronounced at the beginning of the 1000 years. Is that literal as well? So some people will literally be judged several times over and over again in their existence.

How many times do we need to say? Revelation is a series of recaps covering the same intra-advent time-period.

 

[Timtofly]

So, when it talks about those who have fallen asleep being with Jesus when He comes in 1 Thess 4:14, who do you think that refers to?

All the church except those living on the earth. They are all glorified prior to those living being caught up and glorified as Paul described. There is not a divided church 3 or 4 different locations and resurrections. The only division is between those currently in Paradise, and those living and breathing on earth. Those in Paradise have an incorruptible body waiting for the glorified (robe of white). Those caught up will be changed and glorified instantly.

Being asleep is human understanding (symbolism) of physical death. Just a figurative term. Physical death is just figurative as well for those in Christ. This flesh and blood body dies and we are immediately out of one body and into the next. Paul say we leave this tent on earth and enter a building made by God. The figurative contrast between corruption and incorruption. Between a corruptible body and an incorruptible body. That happens and we only see this side of it. In the Revelation 20, Resurrection, they had to wait for Satan's 42 months, or however long they lasted before their head was cut off, before the soul was given an incorruptible body. They are not the church. They are the physical start free of Adam's sinful flesh on earth. They are similar to the OT believers in the sense, they have to wait until Christ completes the harvest in which they physically die to shed Adam's sinful flesh. They have to wait out Satan's 42 months. The OT had to wait for Jesus' first earthly ministry and the Cross for their Resurrection. Those in the final harvest only wait through Satan's 42 months for their Resurrection.

Then comes the Body of the Lord's Day on earth. In Paradise it is 1 Day with God. On earth those human beings will be the firstfruits of the New Earth. God allows 1000 years free from sin and Satan, but not death. Death is the last "enemy" to be subjected at the GWT, when Death is cast into the lake of fire. The first generation will be safe. But all generations after that have a choice to obey or die, just like Adam had. It is not from a sin nature by faith. It is the direct presence of Christ and the rod of iron. Death will be swift and sure. They will be placed in Death, not sheol. Sheol carries those living in times of faith.

Death starts in the 4th seal. Those who die in the 4th seal, if they are not in Christ the connotation is they may not be in the Lamb's book of life period. Death is singled out seperate from sheol. I know some explain away the completion of the church and think all are lumped together, but God even separates Death from sheol. Sheol holds all souls from history, even many who have had no choice until standing before God at the GWT. God curses families for many generations, but holds each soul to their own choices. The church was judged at the Cross. They have been glorified. They will not stand at the GWT. No need to. In fact they do not even leave Paradise, because we are not told that they do. Christ goes away for the day to do His last work on earth. On earth that day last for 1000 years.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Apparently, some Amils must think saints are granted salvation according to their works, since some Amils have saints who have already put on immortality at the last trump

Isn't that last part exactly what 1 Cor 15:50-54 teaches?

1 Cor 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory."

, before this judgment has even taken place yet, later standing there in line with the rest of the dead at the great white throne judgment. Anyone reading Revelation 20:11-15 can clearly see that the text says every single person at that judgment, they are all judgded according to their works.

Why would saints put on immortality first, then after having already put on immortality, be later judged according to their works at the great white throne judgment?

Why not? How do you interpret this passage:

Romans 14:10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.’” 12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.

Or this one:

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

These both talk about believers giving an account of ourselves and being judged according to what we've done. You seem to have a problem with that concept. Why? This must be why you can't relate Matt 25:31-46 to Rev 20:11-15.

Clearly, believers who already have immortal bodies will not be judged in the sense of determining whether they receive eternal life or get cast into the lake of fire. Having immortal bodies shows that we'll have already been given eternal bodily life.

Instead, our judgment will be related to what Paul wrote about here:

1 Cor 3:9 For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building. 10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

While all believers will receive eternal bodily life as a reward, this passage talks about a reward even beyond that. Paul didn't specify what that would be exactly, but it's the same concept that Jesus taught in His parable of the ten minas (about 3 months wages) in Luke 19:11-27 where the king gives his servants charge over 10 minas and lets them choose what to do with it and he rewards one with putting him in charge over 10 cities because he made 10 more minas and another in charge of 5 cities because he made 5 more minas and so on.

So, while scripture clearly indicates that being given eternal life or eternal death does not depend on our works but rather on whether or not we repented and believed in Christ, it also teaches that believers will be given rewards of some kind according to our works.

I hope this info will make you reconsider whether or not Matthew 25:31-46 is the same judgment as Rev 20:11-15 (and Rev 11:15-18) as I believe it is. All of those passages speak of everyone who is there being judged based on what they've done, but so do all the other passages in scripture that talk about the day of judgment.

 

[Timtofly]

There are no accusations left for Satan to make against us because our sins have been washed away by the blood of Christ.

So why claim He is sitting there as a Mediator? There is no Scripture that claims Jesus has stopped being the Mediator. He will not have to on earth during the last 1000 years, but only the Second Coming is the stopping point. The church is glorified and complete. There is nothing more to Mediate.

 

[Timtofly]

How many would get saved? As many as the sand on the seashore, which must be a huge number? Because that's how many unsaved it says there will be at the end of the thousand years.

Rev 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

How does it make sense that despite Christ being on the earth in all His glory for 1000 years, a number "like the sand on the seashore" rebel at the end? What would be the reason for that? Seems like seeing Christ in all His glory and seeing peace on the earth would be appealing to people and make them want to worship Him forever, not rebel against Him.

Because God has given all humans the choice between good and evil. Many still choose evil, even the sons of God. The Millennium is not about good and evil though. It is about obedience. There is a difference if you study God's Word on the topic. If no one has the knowledge of good and evil, how does that even work? I think that knowledge is removed. It will be direct obedience and death. People will just stop living and join Death. No suffering or prison time or reformation. There will be punishment on a national level, for a period of time. I doubt trouble makers will be allowed to flourish, nor will they really have a reason to. Will they keep being pushed to the edge of the map? That is what it seems is pointed out. The edge is not a prison, though like some science fiction scenario where wickedness is found on the fringes of society. The edge may be an utopia even better than Jerusalem. The point is to do things better than God can. Not the control of sinful desires.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

My personal take on this is just what I have already shared. That even though some people might have glorified bodies, this doesn't necessarily make it impossible for them to sin.

Where is that taught in scripture? In 1 Cor 15:50-54 it indicates that those glorified bodies are incorruptible and immortal. How can someone who is incorruptible sin? Being incorruptible means you can't sin. And being immortal means you can't die. But if you sin then you can die because "the wages of sin is death" (Rom 6:23).

 

[Timtofly]

How many times do we need to say? Revelation is a series of recaps covering the same intra-advent time-period.

70 times 70. It is just a recap of a recap, no?

 

[Timtofly]

The beast DEMANDS that everyone get the mark, it doesn't say that everyone actually got it, unless you believe that the beast has the power to actually cause it to happen all around the world even among uncontacted people like the Sentinelese, in an instant.

It is worse than that. God gives the mark to those who accept it. Satan is really only getting people to totally reject God and worship ONLY Satan. Once a person makes that choice, they are sealed out of the Lamb's book of life permanately. If you get your head chopped off, God can not place the seal on your forehead, cause you are dead. It is past the expiration date of God's punishment of working 6 hours a day, 6 days a week, for 6 thousand years. The number that belongs to Adam and all of humanity for Adam's disobedience to God. Those who take the mark decide to keep on working and making a living in Satan's economy.

 

[Marilyn C]

Did you even read my post? Obviously not, or else you are deliberately trying to misrepresent what I wrote. It is you and your Dispy friends who are obsessed with Israel and the old covenant.

Amils are focused on Christ. They see no further covenant or blood slaughter for centuries during some imaginary future millennium. That is fanciful. They believe Christ was the final sacrifice for sin.

God gave the Law, not to save but to expose the sinful heart of man. He knew man would or could never keep the Law. Only God's perfect Son could do so.. That is why Christ was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth. He was predestined to come and save man. The Law was the school master to point man to Christ. Christ is the fulfillment of the Law. Your fascination and fixation with promoting the restoration of the abolished old covenant is deeply troubling.

Dispensationalism undermines the cross-work because it wrongly insists Christ came to set up a physical earthly OT-style kingdom instead of die for mans sin. When the Jews rejected this, the purposes of God were thwarted and God's plan was suspended until some imaginary future millennial kingdom where all the old covenant apparatus would be fully restored.

This false doctrine is unbiblical and should be rejected by every Bible-believing Christian.

No need to get rude, SG. Now if you read a bit more carefully God`s word you would see that God promised Israel many things prior to the law. The law was only an added for God knew they could not keep it but to expose their sinfulness.

However what God promised Israel still stands and God will fulfil the for Israel through the Lord Jesus Christ.

You are still making God out to be `stupid,` expecting sinful man to be able to obey Him and thus receive the promises.

Christ is the centre of God`s word, not us. You may not realise it but you are making `us` the centre by thinking everyone has to have the same inheritance as us. We are all part of God`s one family, but like a family there are different inheritances.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

How many times do we need to say? Revelation is a series of recaps covering the same intra-advent time-period.

Maybe literally a thousand times?