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Sufficient vs Necessary

Skala

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It's that time again kids! Time for our annual philosophy lesson Necessity vs Sufficiency!

The concept of Necessity vs Sufficiency is a logical (ie, pertaining to logic) discussion that asks questions about the implicational relationships between two things.

Necessity:

If something is necessary, that is the same as saying that the consequence cannot be true unless the premise is true. That is, the premise is necessary for the consequence in question to become a reality.

Sufficiency:

If something is sufficient, that means the consequence will, without fail, be true. In other words, that one thing, all by itself, fulfils all the conditions for the consequence to be realized.

I like to use fire as an example to teach this concept.

Fire (the consequence) needs three things to be true:

A) heat
B) fuel
C) oxygen

Each of these things individually are not sufficient for a fire. If you take only A, B, or C, or any combination of two (2) of them, it is impossible to create a fire. That means that all three of those things are necessary for a fire, but none of them alone is sufficient for a fire.

In other words, heat is necessary for a fire, but heat (by itself) is not sufficient for a fire. Heat, by itself, will not cause a fire (the consequence) to form. (a fire also needs oxygen, and something to burn, aka fuel!)

The same is true of fuel and oxygen.

So what is an example of sufficiency?

Being a father is sufficient for being a male.

If a person is a father, it is automatically true that the person is a male. (If they were female,and had children, they'd be a mother instead)

So being a father (P) is sufficient for being a male (C)

However, the flipside of this is not the same. Observe:

Being a male is not sufficient for the person being a father. However, being male is necessary to be a father.

In this case, you can be a male without being a father. However, to be a father, the condition of "being male" must be true, which makes being male necessary, but not sufficient, for being a father.

Now that you know the difference between necessary and sufficient, let's talk theology.

In theology, we monergists like to say that Christ's atonement was sufficient to save people. That is, his death secured everything those people need to be ultimately saved: their regeneration, their faith, their repentance, etc. Everything a person needs to be saved is secured by Christ's life and death for them. That means that Christ's life and death (in monergism) is sufficient to result in salvation. Another way to say this is that if Christ died for a person, that person will, without fail, be saved. Thus, Christ is sufficient for salvation.

However, in synergism, this is not true. Christ can die for a person (in synergism), but yet that person might not be saved. However, the person does need Christ to be saved. That means in synergism, Christ is necessary, but not sufficient. He is necessary because salvation is impossible without him (the way fire is impossible without oxygen), but he is not sufficient for salvatoin (his work alone is not enough for the salvation of a person)

That is because in synergism, something else is necessary: man's cooperation, man's input, man's choice, man's decision, man's free will. Call it whatever you want, word it however you want, but in synergism, there is this other thing that is a necessary condition for his salvation.

So, in synergism, both (grace + man's free will) are necessary for salvation, but neither by itself is sufficient for salvation. Only the combination of both is sufficient for salvation.

Fire:
Fire
Oxygen
Fuel

Synergistic Salvation:
Man's Free Will
Grace

In these two, you can't create the consequence (fire/salvation) with any of the premises or conditions by themselves. It takes all of them together to produce the consequence.

Monergistic Salvation:
Grace/Christ's death

However, in monergism, Grace is sufficient for salvation. It is not merely necessary, but it is also sufficient. Whereas in synergism, Christ is necessary, but not sufficient, in monergism, Christ alone/grace alone is actually suffiicent. It always produces the end result (the consequence) of man's salvation. Every. Single. Time. Without fail. It does not need or rely on anything else. It does not rely on other necessary conditions the way fire or synergistic salvation do. It, all by itself, is the sufficient condition for its consequence.

This is why the reformers said "Sola Gratia" or "Grace alone!". This is what they had in mind when they coined the phrase. They understood the difference between something being necessary vs something being sufficient.

Luther understood it
Calvin understood it
Even Erasmus, Luther's opponent, understood it.

Hope this helped! And I hope you understand it now too!
 
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FreeGrace2

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Synergistic Salvation:
Man's Free Will
Grace

In these two, you can't create the consequence (fire/salvation) with any of the premises or conditions by themselves. It takes all of them together to produce the consequence.
Please clarify here: is your claim that man's free will helps God to save him? I ask that because man's free will has no power whatsoever. Having a free choice doesn't include having any power. When one understands that point, there is no issue about free will.

Monergistic Salvation:
Grace/Christ's death

However, in monergism, Grace is sufficient for salvation. It is not merely necessary, but it is also sufficient. Whereas in synergism, Christ is necessary, but not sufficient, in monergism, Christ alone/grace alone is actually suffiicent. It always produces the end result (the consequence) of man's salvation. Every. Single. Time. Without fail. It does not need or rely on anything else.
I think the error here is in the view that Christ's death provides salvation. Where in the Bible is that found? Instead, we find many verses that clearly link FAITH with salvation. Never about Christ's death causing salvation.

Christ's death DID purchase eternal life for everyone, but that is not the same as saving everyone. Or anyone. Only those who possess eternal life are saved. No one else. And there are many verses that tell us that eteranl life is given on the basis of faith in Christ.
 
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Skala

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Please clarify here: is your claim that man's free will helps God to save him? I ask that because man's free will has no power whatsoever. Having a free choice doesn't include having any power. When one understands that point, there is no issue about free will.

My claim is that in synergism, God's grace is not sufficient for salvation. It takes both God's grace + man's cooperation to accomplish salvation. Thus, in synergism, man's free will and God's grace are both necessary conditions, but not sufficient conditions.


I think the error here is in the view that Christ's death provides salvation. Where in the Bible is that found? Instead, we find many verses that clearly link FAITH with salvation. Never about Christ's death causing salvation.

Some would argue that Christ's death results in faith. Thus, since faith is mandatory for salvation, and Christ's death results in faith for those He dies for, the conclusion is that Christ's death is sufficient for salvation.

In other words, there's two beliefs:

Christ's death + my faith = my salvation
or
Christ's death = my faith + my salvation

In the first, His death is not sufficient (though it is necessary)
In the second, His death is sufficient

Christ's death DID purchase eternal life for everyone, but that is not the same as saving everyone. Or anyone. Only those who possess eternal life are saved. No one else. And there are many verses that tell us that eteranl life is given on the basis of faith in Christ.

Disagree.
 
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FreeGrace2

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My claim is that in synergism, God's grace is not sufficient for salvation. It takes both God's grace + man's cooperation to accomplish salvation. Thus, in synergism, man's free will and God's grace are both necessary conditions, but not sufficient conditions.
This is WHY I'm NOT a synergist. I REJECT the idea that God needs anything from man to save him. For me, salvation is God's work alone. Man's free acceptance of eternal life isn't "cooperation" in any sense of the word.

Some would argue that Christ's death results in faith. Thus, since faith is mandatory for salvation, and Christ's death results in faith for those He dies for, the conclusion is that Christ's death is sufficient for salvation.
Lots of errors here. First, the Bible never says that Christ's death results in faith. No where.

Second, you are correct that faith IS mandatory for salvation, but it provides NO help or cooperation in salvation.

In other words, there's two beliefs:

Christ's death + my faith = my salvation
or
Christ's death = my faith + my salvation

In the first, His death is not sufficient (though it is necessary)
In the second, His death is sufficient
Why only 2 views? Says who?

There is the Biblical view, which was missed completely.

Christ's death provided reconciliation between God and mankind (2 Cor 5:19), which freed the justice of God to provide grace to mankind (Titus 2:11).

Christ's death paid the sin debt for mankind (Rom 5:6,8), and purchased eternal life for mankind (Heb 9:12).

God gifts eternal life to those who believe in His Son for it (Jn 3:15,16, 36, 5:24, 6:40, 47, 1 Cor 1:21, 1 Tim 1:16).

Disagree.
Can you refute my views here? If the answer is "yes", please do so.
 
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Skala

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Man's free acceptance of eternal life isn't "cooperation" in any sense of the word.

Yes it is. Man has to cooperate with God's salvation plan in order for man to be saved. In your view, is Christ's death alone sufficient to result in the salvation of someone?

If the answer is no, that means Christ is necessary, but not sufficient. If something is necessary but not sufficient, that necessarily means that something else has to be part of the equation. Just because you don't want to call it "cooperation" doesn't change anything. The fact remains, it takes "input" from two different things to accomplish the consequence, the way Fire needs three different things to exist: oxyg, fuel, heat

Lots of errors here.

Zero errors.

First, the Bible never says that Christ's death results in faith. No where.

Apparently you've never read the gospel of John, especially chapter 17. Please do so.

Why only 2 views? Says who?

Common sense. Either God alone saves, or God + man's cooperation saves.

There is the Biblical view, which was missed completely.

No. The biblical view is that God alone saves. Ironically, you claim to believe this, but then you turn around and say "The biblical view is missed completely!", which means you don't believe "God alone saves" because you just dismissed it as error!
 
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bling

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My claim is that in synergism, God's grace is not sufficient for salvation. It takes both God's grace + man's cooperation to accomplish salvation. Thus, in synergism, man's free will and God's grace are both necessary conditions, but not sufficient conditions.
This does not take into consideration the God graciously provided man with the faith needed to free chose to accept or reject what Christ did for them.

The master invites everyone to a huge party, but those that accepted and went to the party are not responsible for giving the party?
 
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Skala

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This does not take into consideration the God graciously provided man with the faith needed to free chose to accept or reject what Christ did for them.

The master invites everyone to a huge party, but those that accepted and went to the party are not responsible for giving the party?

Yes it does take those things into consideration.

And after weighing them, the conclusion is that in the salvation you described, God's activity alone isn't sufficient for a man's salvation.

It is necessary (man can't be saved without God's activity), but not sufficient.

Thank you for another great example of Necessary but not sufficient!
 
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FreeGrace2

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Yes it is.
Believe what you want. My view is that acceptance of a gift doesn't help God save anyone.

Man has to cooperate with God's salvation plan in order for man to be saved.
Does God need man's help before He can/will save Him? Of course not.

In your view, is Christ's death alone sufficient to result in the salvation of someone?
Paul says it best: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

If the answer is no, that means Christ is necessary, but not sufficient.
What did Paul say in Eph 2:8? Was he a synergist?

If something is necessary but not sufficient, that necessarily means that something else has to be part of the equation. Just because you don't want to call it "cooperation" doesn't change anything. The fact remains, it takes "input" from two different things to accomplish the consequence, the way Fire needs three different things to exist: oxyg, fuel, heat
The error is trying to equate fire with God saving someone. God has already provided the gift of eternal life for everyone when Christ paid the sin debt of everyone. It's already there. God has already provided, per your example, the 02, fuel, and heat. What Rt misses is that God created the "fire" (salvation) and gifts it to those who believe in Him for it.

Seems RT wants to equate faith with one of the needed things to make fire. That would be wrong. That's where your example falls apart.

Zero errors.
Full of errors.

Apparently you've never read the gospel of John, especially chapter 17. Please do so.
If John 17 actually says that Christ's death results in faith for those He died for (the RT view), please provide the precise verses that say so. Thanks.

These "drive-by" citations aren't helpful.

Common sense. Either God alone saves, or God + man's cooperation saves.
God alone saves. And He is "pleased to save those who believe", as Paul said in 1 Cor 1:21.

Was Paul a synergist?

No. The biblical view is that God alone saves.
As I've just said as well.

Ironically, you claim to believe this, but then you turn around and say "The biblical view is missed completely!", which means you don't believe "God alone saves" because you just dismissed it as error!
Please go back and review my post. My view has always been that God alone saves. Just as I've said in this post. I never dismissed "God alone saves".
 
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FreeGrace2

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Did God's work alone necessarily result in your justification?
Of course. I didn't justify myself. It is God who justifies those who believe. That's His plan. I had nothing to do with God's plan. I'm just glad He has the plan.

Here are some verses that speak very clearly about faith and justification:
Acts 13:39, Rom 3:22,24,28,30, 4:5, 5:1, Gal 2:16, 3:8, 24.
 
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G

guuila

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Of course. I didn't justify myself. It is God who justifies those who believe. That's His plan. I had nothing to do with God's plan. I'm just glad He has the plan.

Here are some verses that speak very clearly about faith and justification:
Acts 13:39, Rom 3:22,24,28,30, 4:5, 5:1, Gal 2:16, 3:8, 24.

In regard to satisfying the requirements for your justification, was that God's work?
 
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FreeGrace2

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In regard to satisfying the requirements for your justification, was that God's work?
Paul says it best:
Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus

Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Rom 3:30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

That's very clear to me. I hope it is to you as well.
 
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G

guuila

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Paul says it best:
Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus

Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Rom 3:30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

That's very clear to me. I hope it is to you as well.

Was that a yes or no?
 
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Skala

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Enough with the run around.

Did Christ's death alone (ie, grace) result in your salvation. Yes or no?

If yes, then that means His work was sufficient.

If no, then that means His work was necessary, but not sufficient.

Which is it? You keep arguing that man must accept the gift, or else he won't be saved. That means Christ's death alone isn't sufficient, because another thing is necessary for the condition of salvation: accepting the gift.

Conclusion: You don't believe grace alone is sufficient for salvation. It's necessary, but not sufficient.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Was that a yes or no?
Was Paul not clear enough?

Here are his own words:
Paul says it best:
Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus

Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Rom 3:30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

That's very clear to me. I hope it is to you as well.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Did Christ's death alone (ie, grace) result in your salvation. Yes or no?
Christ's death ALONE purchased eternal life for me. And I received that free gift through faith in Christ.

If yes, then that means His work was sufficient.

If no, then that means His work was necessary, but not sufficient.
The entire salvation "package" was wrought by God. Man adds nothing to it. And God is pleased to gift this "package" to all who believe in Him for it.

Which is it? You keep arguing that man must accept the gift, or else he won't be saved.
isn't that what the Bible says? That was Paul's direct answer to the jailer's question, btw.

jailer: and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

Paul: They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

That means Christ's death alone isn't sufficient, because another thing is necessary for the condition of salvation: accepting the gift.
The error in your view is trying to make accepting the gift a condition of salvation. Accepting the gift doesn't in any way "improve" the gift, or "complete" the gift. The gift is complete whether man believes or not. Is that understandable.

Conclusion: You don't believe grace alone is sufficient for salvation. It's necessary, but not sufficient.
Actual conclusion: you don't understand my view at all.

ONLY IF man's faith adds to what's necessary for salvation would you be correcrt. Maybe there are Arminians who believe that, but I don't.

What God offers as a free gift is complete. It needs nothing. The gift that is offered is SUFFICIENT to save because it's complete.

Maybe RT doesn't correctly understand what eternal life actually is. EL doesn't "need/require" man's faith to be "effective". EL is just what it says.

The way many RT's describe things, it sounds as though God needs man's faith to help Him save man. Which is wrong.
 
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