Sufficient vs Necessary

[reformed ttL]

well that didn't take long to muddy the waters of a very well put op common sense meet confusion

 

[Skala]

Christ's death ALONE purchased eternal life for me. And I received that free gift through faith in Christ.


The entire salvation "package" was wrought by God. Man adds nothing to it. And God is pleased to gift this "package" to all who believe in Him for it.


isn't that what the Bible says? That was Paul's direct answer to the jailer's question, btw.

jailer: and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

Paul: They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."


The error in your view is trying to make accepting the gift a condition of salvation. Accepting the gift doesn't in any way "improve" the gift, or "complete" the gift. The gift is complete whether man believes or not. Is that understandable.


Actual conclusion: you don't understand my view at all.

ONLY IF man's faith adds to what's necessary for salvation would you be correcrt. Maybe there are Arminians who believe that, but I don't.

What God offers as a free gift is complete. It needs nothing. The gift that is offered is SUFFICIENT to save because it's complete.

Maybe RT doesn't correctly understand what eternal life actually is. EL doesn't "need/require" man's faith to be "effective". EL is just what it says.

The way many RT's describe things, it sounds as though God needs man's faith to help Him save man. Which is wrong.

I believe Christ's death actually secured whatever I need to be saved.

Do I need to accept the gift? Then Christ's death secured my willingness to do that.

Do I need faith? Then Christ's death secured my faith

Do I need regeneration? Then Christ's death secured my regeneration.

The Father elected me for salvation, everything I need for salvation is secured by Christ, and all of those things are applied to me by the Holy Spirit, at the moment of His choosing during my life.

Quite literally, my absolute full and complete salvation is provided by God. He did all of it. Talk about a reason to worship him and be thankful! It is all His gracious work, to save me, which was His plan from eternity past. It's 100% God's work and doing. I didn't even supply the willingness! For without grace, I was unwilling.

You, however, believe that you supplied the willingness.

In my view, God's grace is sufficient for my salvation

In your view, God's grace is necessary, but not sufficient. Because you don't believe God secures the rest of what you need to be saved! You believe you must provide part of it, no matter how small a part.

I will forever argue against any view, no matter what it's called, that doesn't believe God's grace is sufficient for salvation. It is unbiblical, it robs God of glory, it gives too much credit to man, it doesn't take seriously the Bible's teaching on fallen man's helpless state, and it robs the Holy Spirit of his work of conversion, it robs the Father of his work of electing in an unconditional way that is nothing but grace and mercy, and it robs the Son of His work in actually, without fail, redeeming a chosen people unto Himself for His own glory.

/rant

 

[Skala]

The gift that is offered is SUFFICIENT to save because it's complete.

Do you still not understand the difference between sufficient and necessary?

In your view, the gift is merely necessary, but not sufficient. If it was sufficient, it would result in salvation every single time.

Please go back and study the terms "sufficient" and "necessary"

 

[cygnusx1]

Please clarify here: is your claim that man's free will helps God to save him? I ask that because man's free will has no power whatsoever. Having a free choice doesn't include having any power. When one understands that point, there is no issue about free will.


I think the error here is in the view that Christ's death provides salvation. Where in the Bible is that found? Instead, we find many verses that clearly link FAITH with salvation. Never about Christ's death causing salvation.

Christ's death DID purchase eternal life for everyone, but that is not the same as saving everyone. Or anyone. Only those who possess eternal life are saved. No one else. And there are many verses that tell us that eteranl life is given on the basis of faith in Christ.

Christ's death is the cause of our salvation it is the fact that the instrument of faith is employed within that salvation , we don't thank the lifeboat for saving a person we thank the lifeboat men !

The Bible even says we are saved by "his life" , it's all Christ doing the saving , there is no shared saving.

 

[janxharris]

Christ's death is the cause of our salvation it is the fact that the instrument of faith is employed within that salvation , we don't thank the lifeboat for saving a person we thank the lifeboat men !

The Bible even says we are saved by "his life" , it's all Christ doing the saving , there is no shared saving.

Hi cygnusx1,
Haven't seen you for a while...so just in case you are not aware - please read the emergency protocol:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7794118-8/

 

[Awaken4Christ]

I don't understand how Monergists get passed this verse for instance.

Revelation 3:20

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me."

Or this one
Matthew 7:7

"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

Sounds like both GOD knocks on our door and WE knock on his door. Sounds like a relationship to me. Not just being a robot and God moving us like robots.

I'm not in the mood to write an essay so I'll just throw a barrage of questions your way.

If someone gets pulled up from falling off a cliff can the survivor really boast and say "Good thing I grabbed your hand and saved myself"?

Would You rather have someone love you because they CHOOSE to or because they are forced to love you? Wouldn't forcing someone to love you kinda be like playing with dolls in your bedroom?

Why does A Bigger View of God Necessarily mean God Controls more? Does sovereignty really scale that closely with control? < the counter to this would be God holds back his power otherwise we would be blinded by his amazing glory. God took the form of a man with a flesh body. Was he flexing his limitless muscles the hole time in every way conceivable. Just because he is ALL POWERFUL DOES NOT MEAN HE EXERCISES HIS POWER AT FULL IN EVERY DIRECTION ALL THE TIME. I think that maybe God can be all powerful and decide to use that power how he wants to with varying degrees of amplitude and control.

I think that the way God exercises his sovereignty is still partially a mystery. I think that Monergism and Synergism might be both wrong or that mans definitions and words are insufficient to explain Gods Power and the intricacies of his sovereignty.

 

[Awaken4Christ]

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[Awaken4Christ]

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[janxharris]

In theology, we monergists like to say that Christ's atonement was sufficient to save people. That is, his death secured everything those people need to be ultimately saved: their regeneration, their faith, their repentance, etc. Everything a person needs to be saved is secured by Christ's life and death for them. That means that Christ's life and death (in monergism) is sufficient to result in salvation. Another way to say this is that if Christ died for a person, that person will, without fail, be saved. Thus, Christ is sufficient for salvation.

However, in synergism, this is not true. Christ can die for a person (in synergism), but yet that person might not be saved.

Piper is a monergist, and yet he tells unbelievers that Christ died for them. It seems that your statement:

However, in synergism, this is not true. Christ can die for a person (in synergism), but yet that person might not be saved.

is true of monergism too, depending on which monergist one speaks too.

 

[janxharris]

I don't understand how Monergists get passed this verse for instance....

Hi Awaken4Christ,
Just in case you are not aware - please read the emergency protocol:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7794118-8/

 

[janxharris]

I believe Christ's death actually secured whatever I need to be saved.

Do I need to accept the gift? Then Christ's death secured my willingness to do that.

Do I need faith? Then Christ's death secured my faith

Do I need regeneration? Then Christ's death secured my regeneration.

The Father elected me for salvation, everything I need for salvation is secured by Christ, and all of those things are applied to me by the Holy Spirit, at the moment of His choosing during my life.

Quite literally, my absolute full and complete salvation is provided by God. He did all of it. Talk about a reason to worship him and be thankful! It is all His gracious work, to save me, which was His plan from eternity past. It's 100% God's work and doing. I didn't even supply the willingness! For without grace, I was unwilling.

After all that God effected in you (as in your view, above), is there anything of Skala actually left?

 

[guuila]

Was Paul not clear enough?

Here are his own words:
Paul says it best:
Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus

Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Rom 3:30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

That's very clear to me. I hope it is to you as well.

So, "no". Gotcha.

 

[guuila]

After all that God effected in you (as in your view, above), is there anything of Skala actually left?

Surely God left something for Skala to contribute... Otherwise God might get all the glory.

 

[janxharris]

Surely God left something for Skala to contribute... Otherwise God might get all the glory.

I'm just wondering: if there is nothing at all of the person involved (even in the act of faith), then why did God bother to create us?

God gets exactly what was pre-decided....well, there is no victory, at all, in that.

God sovereignty is magnified if the desired outcome is achieved even despite man's libertarian free will.

 

[guuila]

I'm just wondering: if there is nothing at all of the person involved (even in the act of faith), then why did God bother to create us?

God gets exactly what was pre-decided....well, there is no victory, at all, in that.

So you'd rather that faith not be a gift, but instead something you bring to the table.

God sovereignty is magnified if the desired outcome is achieved even despite man's libertarian free will.

In other words, God is magnified if He gets lucky.

 

[Ignatius21]

Hey, look! Exactly the same conversation as every other thread!

Better grab my popcorn!

 

[guuila]

Hey, look! Exactly the same conversation as every other thread!

Better grab my popcorn!

Can you get me some too?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I believe Christ's death actually secured whatever I need to be saved.

So do I.

Do I need to accept the gift? Then Christ's death secured my willingness to do that.

#1 Yes, you need to accept the gift.
#2 There is no Scripture that teaches your second claim. None.

Do I need faith? Then Christ's death secured my faith

#1 Yes, you do.
#2 There is no Scripture that teaches your second claim. None.

Do I need regeneration? Then Christ's death secured my regeneration.

#1 Not for salvation. You need faith before God will save you.
#2 There is no Scripture that teaches your second claim. None.

The Father elected me for salvation

No, He didn't. There are 3 Greek words translated "elect or election"; eklektos, ekloge, eklegomai. 2 Thess 2:13 doesn't have any of the 3 Greek words. Paul wrote that believers are "hairemoai" (chosen) for salvation THROUGH FAITH IN THE TRUTH.

iow, those who believe are chosen for salvation. All of them.

Quite literally, my absolute full and complete salvation is provided by God. He did all of it.

I agree fully. My faith added nothing to what God provided. All I can do is receive His gift through faith. Which is Biblical.

Talk about a reason to worship him and be thankful!

Amen!

It is all His gracious work, to save me, which was His plan from eternity past. It's 100% God's work and doing. I didn't even supply the willingness! For without grace, I was unwilling.

Doing great until the last part. Willingness isn't "given" to anyone, as RT claims. Willingness proves free will. God created man with the freedom to be willing or unwilling, as seen clearly in Isa 1:18-20.

You, however, believe that you supplied the willingness.

Willingness isn't "supplied", as if it is some kind of commodity. God created mankind to seek Him. That means he has the ability to seek Him. But he is free to not seek Him. But RT simply doesn't understand any of this because RT denies that man is free to seek; only free to reject, which really isn't freedom at all.

In my view, God's grace is sufficient for my salvation

I fully agree.

In your view, God's grace is necessary, but not sufficient.

That is totally untrue all the way. There is nothing I can add to my salvation. Receiving the gift doesn't add anything TO the gift.

Because you don't believe God secures the rest of what you need to be saved!

The error here is in thinking that there is anything else "needed" for salvation. The gift God brings is complete in itself. There is only one thing to obtain salvation; receive it.

You believe you must provide part of it, no matter how small a part.

Wrong again! There is nothing ELSE to provide. The gift is complete, so there CANNOT be any "part" to be supplied or provided.

I will forever argue against any view, no matter what it's called, that doesn't believe God's grace is sufficient for salvation.

Then WHY do you keep arguing against my view, which agrees with this statement?

It is unbiblical, it robs God of glory, it gives too much credit to man, it doesn't take seriously the Bible's teaching on fallen man's helpless state, and it robs the Holy Spirit of his work of conversion, it robs the Father of his work of electing in an unconditional way that is nothing but grace and mercy, and it robs the Son of His work in actually, without fail, redeeming a chosen people unto Himself for His own glory.

What is unbiblical is the claim that God chooses who will believe, which is the foundation of the RT doctrine of election. From that error comes all the other errors found in RT.

To simply receive a free gift in NO WAY gives any credit to man. None whatsoever, yet RT continues to claim that it does.

And RT cannot provide ANY evidence for that claim. When a drowning person is saved because someone threw them a lifebuoy, they NEVER credit their deliverance on their "ability to catch" the buoy. So RT has NO excuse for that false claim.

/rant

OK

 

[FreeGrace2]

In your view, the gift is merely necessary, but not sufficient.

Your view of my view is in serious error. Inexplicable.

If it was sufficient, it would result in salvation every single time.

The gift DOES result in salvation every single time. I don't know what you're missing.

Please go back and study the terms "sufficient" and "necessary"

I don't need to. God's gift is complete and sufficient.

I suggest a review of what salvation means. That might help.

 

[guuila]

So do I.

Did God secure your faith?