Study on Faith and Athletes - It Works

[humblehumility]

I'm interested to hear what the members here think about this article, and what they think of my conclusion. You can read the article here but I'll sum it up :

BBC News - Religion and sport: Do prayers help players?


In a study, researchers found that faith and belief in God does improve performance, cure medical ailments, etc. Now up until this point it looks like this would support Christianity and belief in God...heck it proves that believing in God can help you. The catch here, is that faith alters the physical and mental state of not just Christians, but of people of any faith.

My question: given that I'm sure many of you have had experiences where God made something in your life better or gave you more energy/clarity, why is this not the placebo effect that happens the exact same way to people of other faiths? Does this not prove that faith is merely something generated by your mind, and not a part of reality? The study shows that even if faith is not real, it can still have a physical and psychological effect on you.

The only real reason people have for being a Christian is almost always a religious or God experience, something both subjective and faith based. Now that we know Muslims have the exact same experience you do and are physically altered by their faith, why are they wrong and you right? Why is it not their God working his "magic" in their life?

 

[wpage]

Athletes can be confused. They pray for help from above for victory and soon fall into the sin of celebration when prayers are answerd...

Lord have mercy on us. Grant us peace.

 

[razeontherock]

My question: given that I'm sure many of you have had experiences where God made something in your life better or gave you more energy/clarity, why is this not the placebo effect that happens the exact same way to people of other faiths? Does this not prove that faith is merely something generated by your mind, and not a part of reality?

Great question!

Jesus Christ is the Light that lightens every man (and woman) that enters the world. (John 1:9)

So yes, everyone of every religion and no religion, can access G-d's Power the same way. Christ's shed blood is the only thing that makes this possible, although it takes more than just that in every case.

And logically speaking, even if it were only in our minds, since it really affects us, it is part of reality. And here's why:

Proverbs 23:7 "For as he thinketh in his heart, so [is] he"

This is not the passage I was thinking of, where Jesus said something to the same effect:

Matthew 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

Wpage: "the sin of celebration?" Sounds like an NFL rule, not sin (LOL)

 

[skeptonaut]

So yes, everyone of every religion and no religion, can access G-d's Power the same way.

Well the point is that they're not accessing them the same way. Christians access it through Christ. Muslims access it through Allah. Buddhists access it through themselves. You seem to like using Bible verses, what about the verses that speak death unto anybody that disbelieves in Christ? And wouldn't it confuse say a Muslim to believe that Allah was giving them power, when really it was Jesus doing it in hiding? Why is Jesus hiding from them and allowing them to believe in a false prophet? There is no logical answer to this.

Christ's shed blood is the only thing that makes this possible, although it takes more than just that in every case.

That's a contradiction. If it takes more than Christ's blood, it cannot take only Christ's blood. A Muslim does not even believe in Christ's shed blood, let alone anything in addition to that.

And logically speaking, even if it were only in our minds, since it really affects us, it is part of reality. And here's why:

It's part of subjective reality, personal reality. What you must understand about the viewpoints of nonbelievers (not accept, only understand) is that until there is true evidential proof -that goes under the scrutiny of the scientific method-, the subjective means nothing but one frame of reference out of billions. While it might mean something to you, it does absolutely nothing for me in terms of the truths of existence.

 

[mulimulix]

I'm interested to hear what the members here think about this article, and what they think of my conclusion. You can read the article here but I'll sum it up :

BBC News - Religion and sport: Do prayers help players?


In a study, researchers found that faith and belief in God does improve performance, cure medical ailments, etc. Now up until this point it looks like this would support Christianity and belief in God...heck it proves that believing in God can help you. The catch here, is that faith alters the physical and mental state of not just Christians, but of people of any faith.

My question: given that I'm sure many of you have had experiences where God made something in your life better or gave you more energy/clarity, why is this not the placebo effect that happens the exact same way to people of other faiths? Does this not prove that faith is merely something generated by your mind, and not a part of reality? The study shows that even if faith is not real, it can still have a physical and psychological effect on you.

The only real reason people have for being a Christian is almost always a religious or God experience, something both subjective and faith based. Now that we know Muslims have the exact same experience you do and are physically altered by their faith, why are they wrong and you right? Why is it not their God working his "magic" in their life?

I'll just say that up until this article, all studies of effectiveness of prayers have shown that it does nothing and worse, it can even be harmful.

 

[drich0150]

I'm interested to hear what the members here think about this article, and what they think of my conclusion. You can read the article here but I'll sum it up :

BBC News - Religion and sport: Do prayers help players?


In a study, researchers found that faith and belief in God does improve performance, cure medical ailments, etc. Now up until this point it looks like this would support Christianity and belief in God...heck it proves that believing in God can help you. The catch here, is that faith alters the physical and mental state of not just Christians, but of people of any faith.

My question: given that I'm sure many of you have had experiences where God made something in your life better or gave you more energy/clarity, why is this not the placebo effect that happens the exact same way to people of other faiths? Does this not prove that faith is merely something generated by your mind, and not a part of reality? The study shows that even if faith is not real, it can still have a physical and psychological effect on you.

The only real reason people have for being a Christian is almost always a religious or God experience, something both subjective and faith based. Now that we know Muslims have the exact same experience you do and are physically altered by their faith, why are they wrong and you right? Why is it not their God working his "magic" in their life?

What of those who were content in their lives and were not looking for "Magic?"

Your argument presupposes that everyone who gets a God experience is looking for one.

 

[humblehumility]

What of those who were content in their lives and were not looking for "Magic?"

Your argument presupposes that everyone who gets a God experience is looking for one.

The simple point I was making was that any God can give somebody a "God experience", making the God experience Christians have no different than the one Muslims have. They both have God's working in their lives and making actual physical change through altering the psychology of the person being influenced.

This opens up the possibility that while your "God" experience may be true in your mind, it may also be nothing more than the psychological feeling those that believe in other gods receive. This is why Muslims are so devout much like Christians, they have experience with spirituality that made them a true believer.

 

[drich0150]

The simple point I was making was that any God can give somebody a "God experience", making the God experience Christians have no different than the one Muslims have. They both have God's working in their lives and making actual physical change through altering the psychology of the person being influenced.

This opens up the possibility that while your "God" experience may be true in your mind, it may also be nothing more than the psychological feeling those that believe in other gods receive. This is why Muslims are so devout much like Christians, they have experience with spirituality that made them a true believer.

I don't mean to be crass, but so?

It looks like your assuming that God has been somehow forbidden to reach out to anyone not a confessed Christian. I can think of at least 144,000 examples of how this assumption is wrong.

 

[zaksmummy]

The simple point I was making was that any God can give somebody a "God experience", making the God experience Christians have no different than the one Muslims have. They both have God's working in their lives and making actual physical change through altering the psychology of the person being influenced.

This opens up the possibility that while your "God" experience may be true in your mind, it may also be nothing more than the psychological feeling those that believe in other gods receive. This is why Muslims are so devout much like Christians, they have experience with spirituality that made them a true believer.

Some research done in the UK shows that people have an area in the frontal lobe of their brains that change when they are having a religious experience.

The problem is the use of the word "faith". We can all have "faith", you have faith in a ladder every time you climb it, but that ladder wont get you closer to the Living God. Only Jesus can do that. He said that he is that Way the Truth and the Life, and that no one can come to Father God with out him.

 

[humblehumility]

I don't mean to be crass, but so?

It looks like your assuming that God has been somehow forbidden to reach out to anyone not a confessed Christian. I can think of at least 144,000 examples of how this assumption is wrong.

I'm not saying he can't reach out to them, but why would your God want to make people believe that their God is the one giving them powers. What is the point in that? That is only going to make them believe even stronger in their false idol. Kind of counter-productive to what God is trying to do with his religion.

 

[humblehumility]

The problem is the use of the word "faith". We can all have "faith", you have faith in a ladder every time you climb it, but that ladder wont get you closer to the Living God.

I have no "faith" in a ladder that I climb. I check myself to see that it's sturdy and then climb up it on the assumption that my checking was sufficient and truthful, and that in fact the ladder will support me. There is no faith involved or required.

 

[drich0150]

I'm not saying he can't reach out to them, but why would your God want to make people believe that their God is the one giving them powers. What is the point in that? That is only going to make them believe even stronger in their false idol. Kind of counter-productive to what God is trying to do with his religion.

There is only one God and last i checked He did not belong to anybody. There are also those who seek the one true God and there are those who do not. Who are you to say whether a brother in another faith is using all that God has given him to Seek Him out?

The position of any Chrsitian should only and ever be is to repersent the scriptures as the way "we" are to reach out to God. This however does not mean to say it is the only way God can reach out to us.

 

[humblehumility]

Who are you to say whether a brother in another faith is using all that God has given him to Seek Him out?

They are not though, they are using the faith that their different God has given them and they will tell you that. That's the definition of worshipping a false idol, which the Bible is very clear on.

Exodus 20:4-6

You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

 

[drich0150]

They are not though, they are using the faith that their different God has given them and they will tell you that. That's the definition of worshiping a false idol, which the Bible is very clear on.

Exodus 20:4-6

You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

This is my point exactly to the letter!!!

You are assuming that "these people" are indeed worshiping a false idol. Do you think all who deem themselves "Christians" are? Do you think that all who sit in a christian church on Sunday love God? Our greatest command is to Love the Lord with all of our being. Do you think God a fool and can not tell when He is being loved and when someone calling themselves a "christian" is just going through the motions?

Then do you think God a fool to ignore someone who has not labeled themselves "christian" but follows the Greatest Commands with all of their Heart Mind Spirit and Strength?

Or Are you saying unless you have the wherewithal to give this label to yourself, you are worshiping an idol?

As I pointed out from the beginning the bible does not agree with you if these are your arguments. It points to a minimum of 144,000 non-Christians who will be saved. I can use it to point to more if you wish.

We are judged with our exposure to the gospel, what we did with that exposure and our comprehension of all that have been given to us. There are those who have never heard of Christ, and yet worship the one true God. Do you think these people's fate/judgment will be as harsh as yours?

 

[razeontherock]

I'm not saying he can't reach out to them, but why would your God want to make people believe that their God is the one giving them powers. What is the point in that? That is only going to make them believe even stronger in their false idol. Kind of counter-productive to what God is trying to do with his religion.

Either that or maybe you don't see His purposes?

 

[razeontherock]

I have no "faith" in a ladder that I climb. I check myself to see that it's sturdy and then climb up it on the assumption that my checking was sufficient and truthful, and that in fact the ladder will support me. There is no faith involved or required.

You are using a definition of "faith" different from what is meant in the Bible.

 

[sh284]

Athletes can be confused. They pray for help from above for victory and soon fall into the sin of celebration when prayers are answerd...

Lord have mercy on us. Grant us peace.

Are you saying that participating in sports is a sin?

 

[ebia]

You are using a definition of "faith" different from what is meant in the Bible.

Agreed.

 

[razeontherock]

They are not though, they are using the faith that their different God has given them and they will tell you that. That's the definition of worshipping a false idol, which the Bible is very clear on.

What if they are actually worshiping the same G-d? What if He sees their intent as pure, only arising from within another culture?

The overwhelming majority of Christianity teaches this is a possibility.

 

[humblehumility]

What if they are actually worshiping the same G-d? What if He sees their intent as pure, only arising from within another culture?

The overwhelming majority of Christianity teaches this is a possibility.

It is not a possibility though, the reality is that they ARE worshipping false idols in the EXACT same way it is done in the Bible. The Bible gives us examples of false worshipping and then explains the repercussions of it so that we can detect this false worshipping in our reality now. You are only trying to rationalize it into something "possible" because my argument does tear down the "experience as evidence" argument most Christians use to prove God.

A God experience is no more evidence for religion than a Vishnu experience. Someone worshipping Vishnu is not worshipping the Christian God, and they will openly tell you that they refute this God. There is nothing going on behind the scenes here where they are somehow actually worshipping the real true God and they just don't know it.

Also, the intent is not pure, they are using faith to win at sports...that's like praying for God to help you win the lottery. Is that pure?