The Problem of Petitionary Prayer for Divine Healing

[Berserk]

Please either address these 5 questions from personal observation and experience or at least offer reasons for your perspective.
(1) How can we pursue the requisite faith for divine healing?

(2) How can we know what it feels like to have authentic faith for divine healing? When we think we have faith for healing but no healing results, was our faith flawed or is there an elusive relationship between faith and healing?

(3) How does one seek the will of God for personal physical healing? Can we just tarry for healing in God's presence and assume He wants to heal us? How often is asking for God's will to be done just an excuse to avoid a disciplined pursuit of believing faith for healing?

(4) Have any of you ever experienced or witnessed the healing of blindness or deafness? I ask this because many biblical miracles don't seem to have any or many modern parallels. Skeptics say if God can't or won't do it now, the reasonable assumption is that He couldn't or wouldn't do it back then. How limited should our expectations be for the performance of spectacular miracles?

(5) The Bible identifies or implies several conditions that should be satisfied for the experience of healing miracles. Yet God is sovereign and sometimes seems to heal people who have not met these conditions. When in need of healing, how important is it to systematically identify biblical conditions for healing and then try to satisfy them?

 

[tturt]

Since God created us, He can heal us.
-"For You formed my innermost parts; You knit me [together] in my mother’s womb” Psa 139:13
-“The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.” Job 33:4
-"I will put ligaments on you, place muscles on you, and cover you with skin. I will put breath in you, and you will live. Then you will know that I am Yahweh." Eze 37:6
-"Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?” Mal 2;10
Determines the time and place of our births:
-“And he made from one man every race of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted epochs and the fixed boundaries of the places where they would live;” (Acts 17:26)

God's will is that we're in good health. III John 1:2, Jam 5:14-15, Jer 30:17, 33:6, etc

Jehovah-Rapha, Yahweh- Rapha means God who heals. (Exo 12:37, Psa 105:37)

 

[Berserk]

Since God created us, He can heal us.
-"For You formed my innermost parts; You knit me [together] in my mother’s womb” Psa 139:13
-“The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.” Job 33:4
-"I will put ligaments on you, place muscles on you, and cover you with skin. I will put breath in you, and you will live. Then you will know that I am Yahweh." Eze 37:6
-"Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?” Mal 2;10
Determines the time and place of our births:
-“And he made from one man every race of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted epochs and the fixed boundaries of the places where they would live;” (Acts 17:26)

God's will is that we're in good health. III John 1:2, Jam 5:14-15, Jer 30:17, 33:6, etc

Jehovah-Rapha, Yahweh- Rapha means God who heals. (Exo 12:37, Psa 105:37)

You ducked all 5 of the OP's questions.

 

[tturt]

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Rom 10:17)

Can always pray - I believe and asks for help with unbelief (Mark 9:24)

There can be hindrances to prayer such as:
-"Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered." (I Peter 3:7).
--"Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift."(Matt 5:
23-24)
-'Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. (Isa 59:1-2)
-Dan 10 includes the report of a battle in the heavens for 21 days to stop the response to Daniel's prayer."

"If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you." (John 15:7)

 

[Berserk]

Just more verses without answering any of the OP's 5 questions or reporting on how effective the prayers of YOUR church members really is.

 

[jamiec]

“God can” do all sorts of things that God does not do. So it makes no sense of any kind to trust in any way in what God can do; because there’s no reason to believe that God will do it. People pray for years and years for healing, or for some other good thing to happen for them, and it doesn’t; the only examples that most people hear of, are those examples which can be regarded with some plausibility as answers to prayer.

Most healings and alleviations of sickness come through purely natural means, which, if one wishes, one can regard as gifts of God. Miracles, if ever they happen, are so rare and unpredictable that they cannot be depended upon as a means of healing.

The objections that atheists make to this part of Christianity are impossible to refute, precisely because they are thoroughly justified. Atheists very often make excellent points against Christianity, and it is only right to admit this.

Quoting Bible verses proves nothing, except that the quoter is familiar with the text of the Bible.

 

[Berserk]

People pray for years and years for healing, or for some other good thing to happen for them, and it doesn’t; ...
Miracles, if ever they happen, are so rare and unpredictable that they cannot be depended upon as a means of healing.

Jesus rebukes His disciples for trying and failing to mediate divine healing (Mark 9:18-19) and praises others for exercising the faith to heal (Matthew 15:28; Luke 7:9). Does this imply that healing faith is a quality (habit, virtue, skill?) to be cultivated? If so, how?
Are Jesus' many blanket promises about the power of miracle-working faith false, misleading, misunderstood, or misapplied?

e. g. "If you are able! All things can bv done for the one who believes (Mark 9:23)."
"So whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have [already] received it, and it will be yours (Mark 11:24)."
"If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you (John 15:7)."

 

[tturt]

Why would I value what atheists think compared to what God says in Scripture - which is some of His wisdom?

Maybe you believe what's said about being His - that's good.

 

[tturt]

Berserk Sorry my responses are not measuring up.

 

[ARBITER01]

Please either address these 5 questions from personal observation and experience or at least offer reasons for your perspective.
(1) How can we pursue the requisite faith for divine healing?

Not a bad topic for once.

I'm going to use your favorite translation for a moment, the KJV:

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

There seems to be a misunderstanding of what faith is for some people, and that misunderstanding translated over into doctrinal changes to GOD's word here and other places. I gave a bigger font to the problematic word,... of. We live by His faith. We cannot produce the requisite faith on our own. At best, we could have a great amount of belief, but that is not the same as faith, nor is GOD going to honor it.

There are steps towards great faith:

- we must be born again
- we must be water immersed
- we must be filled with His Spirit, which always includes the gifts
- And the harder one to receive, we must have The Fathers anointing upon our heads like Jesus had, and maintain having it.

If you have all 4 of these, you're not going to be worried about needing any required faith, GOD will be operating through you to His glory and you will be along for the ride.

Most people stop at step two.

(2) How can we know what it feels like to have authentic faith for divine healing?

I'm only going to answer the questions I can, I'm not going to do 20 questions.

The gifts of healings gift can be a ministry, we see it listed here,....

1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Paul was listing ministries in that section, not individual gifts as some of our more cessationalist types like to think. To have a ministry in the gifts of healings means that GOD operates daily through you with that gift on a regular basis, as regular as a pastor's or teacher's ministry. Jesus is the perfect example on how The Father can move through us on a consistent basis.

How does it feel?

I've had touches of it in my life at times. I will have a sort of presence of The Holy Spirit or a sort of Spiritual anointing on both of my hands at the same time. If I lay my hands on someone during a moment of this happening, GOD will heal them. This happened back around the early 2000's at a small pentecostal type church in San Diego when I was stationed out there in the military. A guy's lower back was instantly healed when I touched him during a moment of this.

I didn't need to try to create a great amount of faith, GOD was on the scene and operated through me, I was just His instrument.

There's always a learning curve with the gifts, and an additional learning curve when GOD grants you a ministry with one of them. I've not always understood what GOD was doing at times with this gift through me over the years, so I've not had a consistent operation of this gift. Satan can also fight you over powerful things like this. He doesn't want to see GOD's people reach the pinnacle that Jesus did down here, so he will try to distract, divert, and personally bring great troubles into your life over it. He was the anointed cherub, so he very much understands how having that anointing upon our heads is key to everything, so he will try his hardest to thwart you from having it, or if you do receive it, from keeping it.

Without that anointing, the gift will only operate sporadically. You can't really have a ministry in something like this without GOD's anointing upon you, hence why you see so many people fail in things like this. They think they can try to muster up enough personal belief and lay hands on someone and GOD will just honor it and provide the healing. That's not how Jesus did it. We must pay attention to how He did things and ignore everyone else's bad ideas at times.

 

[Berserk]

We live by His faith. We cannot produce the requisite faith on our own. At best, we could have a great amount of belief, but that is not the same as faith, nor is GOD going to honor it.

If it's imparted faith and not ours, why does Jesus praise healing faith when He encounters it and rebuke His disciples for their lack of faith to heal? And why does He respond, "Your faith has cured you?"If you have all 4 of these, you're not going to be worried about needing any required faith, GOD will be operating through you to His glory and you will be along for the ride.

If you have all 4 of these, you're not going to be worried about needing any required faith, GOD will be operating through you to His glory and you will be along for the ride.

It's not as easy or common as you make it out to be. For example, has anyone in your church been used by God to cure the blind or deaf or those afflicted with congestive heart failure?

 

[ARBITER01]

If it's imparted faith and not ours, why does Jesus praise healing faith when He encounters it and rebuke His disciples for their lack of faith to heal? And why does He respond, "Your faith has cured you?"

Let me ask you a question,..... was faith the main factor with any of the Apostles? Did they ever require faith before GOD would ever move through them?

Look at Peter. The power of GOD operating the gifts of healings through Him healed all those people that came to him just so they would be near him as he passed them by. Was faith the prerequisite required beforehand during that daily event?

My point in this, is this,.....we are under a better covenant now, Jesus wasn't yet during His time. How we gauge and understand GOD's doings has to be carefully looked at understanding this. I stand by what I wrote, it is the faith "of" The Son of GOD. We are simply an instrument of His righteousness.

It's not as easy or common as you make it out to be. For example, has anyone in your church been used by God to cure the blind or deaf or those afflicted with congestive heart failure?

What are you trying to get at here? Are you attempting to say that GOD doesn't do such things in the body of Christ anymore?

GOD did use me in another church to heal that person's back. He couldn't really stand up he was in so much pain, and once GOD had me lay both my hands on him, he was instantly pain free from that day onward.

Are you one of these skeptic/critic types that has his/her mind in the way all the time?

 

[Berserk]

The Gospels never refer to Jesus' "faith" and there is no good reason to take the Greek of Paul's expression "faith of Christ" as a subjective genitive meaning "Christ's own faith." Indeed, George Brunk's article offers 5 compelling reasons for the standard scholarly view that takes Paul's phrase "faith of Christ" as an objective genitive meaning "faith in Christ:"

"First, Paul nowhere gives an extended exposition of such an understanding, using this specific vocabulary. If it actually had the importance that p'roponents find in the phrase, it would be surprising that this phrase appears only this way in Paul’s writing. Paul never uses either the noun faith, or the verb believe, or the adjective faithful for Christ apart from this expression. Paul never engages in an expanded discussion of such a concept. The fact that Paul never uses faith language unambiguously as an act of Jesus Christ himself, while he consistently uses the language of obedience in this sense (see Phil 2:1-11; Rom 5:19), makes it unlikely that our phrase refers to Jesus Christ’s own faith.

Second, in both the Galatians and Romans contexts where our phrase appears, Paul uses Abraham as an example of faith in support of his argument. In Galatians 3, Paul shows that Abraham’s faith exemplifies human response to the promise of God, or to the divine initiative of God. Note the large number of references in the chapter to promise, which has faith as its corollary. Attempts to make faithful Abraham a type of the faithful Christ (cf. Hays 2002; Gorman 2009) in support of the concept of Christ’s faith or faithfulness in Galatians do not do justice to this context. Although Paul cites Christ as the seed of Abraham and thus shows that Christ stands in the tradition of the promises to Abraham (3:16), Paul’s point is that God’s promise is what endures to the present time and what characterizes the gospel of Christ—not the Law! Christ is not an exact parallel to Abraham; Christ is not said to have faith in divine promise in the way that Abraham did. To the contrary, in Galatians 3 Christ is presented as the fulfillment of promise, not as one who submits to promise. Furthermore, Paul’s appeal to Abraham focuses on faith as trust and openness to God’s promise, not on faithfulness or obedience. The same is true in Romans 4. This applies also to the allegory in Galatians 4. Not that one should contrast or even separate these two meanings in Paul’s thought! But close attention to Paul’s arguments in this context suggests that Paul is emphasizing faith more than faithfulness. Faith in Galatians refers predominantly to human receptivity to God’s gift of redemption and to God’s gift of the Spirit.

Third, Paul’s view of faith was a matter of dispute in the earliest church. The letter of James reflects this debate. Interestingly, the debate in James centers on faith in relation to works—both of which are actions of the believer. Clearly the debate is not about faith as faithfulness; otherwise James would have had no reason to emphasize works. The idea of faithfulness does appear in Hebrews and Revelation, which refer to Christ as faithful. This fits the themes of those books, which call for the perseverance of believers under testing. But Galatians deals with a different issue.

Fourth, the earliest commentators of Paul, whose native Greek language was the same as Paul’s, show no evidence of understanding the phrase as referring to Christ’s own faith (Harrisville). This is a significant observation! Most of the occurrences of the expression in the Greek writers carry the same ambiguity as they do in Paul. But scholars generally agree that, in some instances, faith clearly refers to the response of the believer. No instance refers unambiguously to Christ’s own faith or faithfulness.

Fifth, no interpretation of our phrase as Christ’s own faith has been identified before the eighteenth century (Bird and Sprinkle: 15). It is rare until the twentieth century. Translations of the phrase into other languages from the early centuries to the King James Version use equivalents of faith of Jesus Christ without indicating how it was interpreted. Translators in premodern times translated as literally as possible out of reverence for the sacred text. How the expression was understood must be shown by commentaries, sermons, and explicit discussions of the interpretation. But so far, no case is known where the reference is to Christ’s faith.

So although understanding pistis tou christou as a reference to Christ’s own faith or faithfulness is grammatically and theologically possible and even attractive, no certain case exists of this sense, either in Paul, in his early interpreters who shared a common language, or in any interpreter before modern times."

 

[ARBITER01]

The Gospels never refer to Jesus' "faith" and there is no good reason to take the Greek of Paul's expression "faith of Christ" as a subjective genitive meaning "Christ's own faith." Indeed, George Brunk's article offers 5 compelling reasons for the standard scholarly view that takes Paul's phrase "faith of Christ" as an objective genitive meaning "faith in Christ:"

"First, Paul nowhere gives an extended exposition of such an understanding, using this specific vocabulary. If it actually had the importance that p'roponents find in the phrase, it would be surprising that this phrase appears only this way in Paul’s writing. Paul never uses either the noun faith, or the verb believe, or the adjective faithful for Christ apart from this expression. Paul never engages in an expanded discussion of such a concept. The fact that Paul never uses faith language unambiguously as an act of Jesus Christ himself, while he consistently uses the language of obedience in this sense (see Phil 2:1-11; Rom 5:19), makes it unlikely that our phrase refers to Jesus Christ’s own faith.

Second, in both the Galatians and Romans contexts where our phrase appears, Paul uses Abraham as an example of faith in support of his argument. In Galatians 3, Paul shows that Abraham’s faith exemplifies human response to the promise of God, or to the divine initiative of God. Note the large number of references in the chapter to promise, which has faith as its corollary. Attempts to make faithful Abraham a type of the faithful Christ (cf. Hays 2002; Gorman 2009) in support of the concept of Christ’s faith or faithfulness in Galatians do not do justice to this context. Although Paul cites Christ as the seed of Abraham and thus shows that Christ stands in the tradition of the promises to Abraham (3:16), Paul’s point is that God’s promise is what endures to the present time and what characterizes the gospel of Christ—not the Law! Christ is not an exact parallel to Abraham; Christ is not said to have faith in divine promise in the way that Abraham did. To the contrary, in Galatians 3 Christ is presented as the fulfillment of promise, not as one who submits to promise. Furthermore, Paul’s appeal to Abraham focuses on faith as trust and openness to God’s promise, not on faithfulness or obedience. The same is true in Romans 4. This applies also to the allegory in Galatians 4. Not that one should contrast or even separate these two meanings in Paul’s thought! But close attention to Paul’s arguments in this context suggests that Paul is emphasizing faith more than faithfulness. Faith in Galatians refers predominantly to human receptivity to God’s gift of redemption and to God’s gift of the Spirit.

Third, Paul’s view of faith was a matter of dispute in the earliest church. The letter of James reflects this debate. Interestingly, the debate in James centers on faith in relation to works—both of which are actions of the believer. Clearly the debate is not about faith as faithfulness; otherwise James would have had no reason to emphasize works. The idea of faithfulness does appear in Hebrews and Revelation, which refer to Christ as faithful. This fits the themes of those books, which call for the perseverance of believers under testing. But Galatians deals with a different issue.

Fourth, the earliest commentators of Paul, whose native Greek language was the same as Paul’s, show no evidence of understanding the phrase as referring to Christ’s own faith (Harrisville). This is a significant observation! Most of the occurrences of the expression in the Greek writers carry the same ambiguity as they do in Paul. But scholars generally agree that, in some instances, faith clearly refers to the response of the believer. No instance refers unambiguously to Christ’s own faith or faithfulness.

Fifth, no interpretation of our phrase as Christ’s own faith has been identified before the eighteenth century (Bird and Sprinkle: 15). It is rare until the twentieth century. Translations of the phrase into other languages from the early centuries to the King James Version use equivalents of faith of Jesus Christ without indicating how it was interpreted. Translators in premodern times translated as literally as possible out of reverence for the sacred text. How the expression was understood must be shown by commentaries, sermons, and explicit discussions of the interpretation. But so far, no case is known where the reference is to Christ’s faith.

So although understanding pistis tou christou as a reference to Christ’s own faith or faithfulness is grammatically and theologically possible and even attractive, no certain case exists of this sense, either in Paul, in his early interpreters who shared a common language, or in any interpreter before modern times."

lolol.

You'll argue yourself right out of the truth by any means possible it seems there Mr. academic

I think your title for this thread is misleading. Divine healing is when GOD does it, faith healing by people is not.

There's a key factor in Christianity that only a few people are ever going to understand throughout their lives that relates to this topic, you must be led by The Holy Spirit. If you're trying to invoke some amount of personal faith into the equation, then it is not GOD getting the glory, it is you seeking to have it. This is another reason why it is the faith "of" The Son of GOD, it has nothing to do with us, we are simply conduits for His greatness.

 

[Berserk]

You'll argue yourself right out of the truth by any means possible it seems there Mr. academic

Divine healing is when GOD does it, faith healing by people is not... you must be led by The Holy Spirit. If you're trying to invoke some amount of personal faith into the equation, then it is not GOD getting the glory, it is you seeking to have it. This is another reason why it is the faith "of" The Son of GOD.

"Rather, "the truth" can be found in the meaning of the Greek, of which you are oblivious.
You fail to grasp the classic distinction between necessary and sufficient conditions. The sufficient condition is God's intervention through His sovereign will because divine healing is a gift of the Holy Spirit. So God gets the glory. But there are necessary conditions for us to fulfill. Paul tells us we must "earnestly strive for the spiritual gifts (1 Cor. 12:31; 14:1)" and Jesus teaches the perseverance is needed for effective petitionary prayer (e . g. Luke 11:5-11): "Keep on asking, and you shall receive, etc." Jesus praises healing faith when He encounbters it and rebukes His disciples doubts in failing to heal precisely because we must play a role in mediating healing to others.

 

[ARBITER01]

"Rather, "the truth" can be found in the meaning of the Greek, of which you are oblivious.

And you're pretty "oblivious" to The Holy Spirit it seems.

You see,...... back in Christian/Pentecostal history, people were not worried about what "the Greek" said, they were only concerned with what The Lord said, and some of the greatest miracles in mankind happened through their obedience. Documented raisings from the dead, daily healings by a woman laying hands on people in America, etc, etc ,etc.

If you really think you have it all figured out because you are some sort of educated scholar, by all means continue on your path, but I don't know why you are asking questions with preconceived ideas on here.

Anyways, have fun figuring it out, laters.

 

[Berserk]

And you're pretty "oblivious" to The Holy Spirit it seems.

You talk like the Bible was originally written in King James English! In fact, it was written in Hebrew and Greek. And your professed spiritual discernment is invalidated if it clashes with the original meaning of the Greek text. Being ignorant of the nuances of Greek grammar, you are upset because y9ou have no answer to the the fivefold case in post #13 for "faith in Christ" as the meaning of Paul's use of the Greek objective gentive used in his phrase "faith of Christ."

You see,...... back in Christian/Pentecostal history, people were not worried about what "the Greek" said, they were only concerned with what The Lord said,

Duh, but NT teaching comes in Greek, so to determine "what the Lord said," it's helpful to know Greek.

and some of the greatest miracles in mankind happened through their obedience. Documented raisings from the dead, daily healings by a woman laying hands on people in America, etc, etc ,etc.

I'd guess I've researched those reported miracles more than you have and my perception is that those miracles were rare. Hence, this thread is part of my quest for more light on why.

If you really think you have it all figured out because you are some sort of educated scholar, by all means continue on your path, but I don't know why you are asking questions with preconceived ideas on here.

On the contrary, I started this thread precisely because I want better answers to the OP's questions. The church of my youth was the first Pentecostal church in Canada, a direct outgrowth of the Azusa Street Revival. I used to attend Kathryn Kuhlman healing rallies. So I believe in miracles and am heavily immersed in Pentecostal folklore.

 

[ARBITER01]

I'd guess I've researched those reported miracles more than you have and my perception is that those miracles were rare. Hence, this thread is part of my quest for more light on why.

You're asking questions that you can't learn from your education, and you've never learned to be a good listener.

It wasn't the miracles that were rare, it was the individuals that went through the wilderness and trials laid before them for His anointing that were/are rare. How many Smith Wigglesworth's have there been since his death, what about Maria Woodworth Etter's since her death. It is a rare person nowadays that takes up their cross and stays in the fight against the flesh with GOD until He anoints them. Very rare anymore.

Also, the greater gifts of healings, working of miracles, and the gift of faith only operate by The Holy Spirit, and without His anointing The Holy Spirit does not rest upon you in power to do said operating.

There's your answers.

 

[Bobber]

How many Smith Wigglesworth's have there been since his death, what about Maria Woodworth Etter's since her death. It is a rare person nowadays that takes up their cross and stays in the fight against the flesh with GOD until He anoints them. Very rare anymore.

I agree. And people of these earlier days what they did with their time was everything. Many today would call them extreme. Wigglesworth wouldn't even allow a newspaper in his house. Everything in their spirit was the word of God with an absolute focus and they considered that normal.

 

[Bobber]

Please either address these 5 questions from personal observation and experience or at least offer reasons for your perspective.
(1) How can we pursue the requisite faith for divine healing?

I can't do all 5 at once. Each point needs talked about and if one makes a post too long most won't read them. So how does one pursue the type of faith necessary for healing? Is that what you're asking?

First faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. One must study through the scriptures and see just what God's will is and what he has said about it. You'll never have faith to believe for healing without it as you would never have faith for salvation unless you hear the gospel.

I will add this about your later statements. Does anyone knows one healed of blindness or some other serious affliction. I do. I myself had retina detachment early this year.....I did have a procedure done to join it back up (gas bubble in my eye...ha...won't get into that) but coming back 5 days later I came back...to do a check.....read 4-5 lines down....Doc was amazed saying two kind of breaks we call them....good kind...bad kind.....you had the bad kind.

We never really see one coming back seeing as good as you are.......(not that they don't see at all but no where as good as I was) They sent me across the hall.....to another type professional....they looked at the computer screen they looked at me and said Wow! You really can see that good? Yup I said....but my wife said but we believe in God and prayer.....And I had prayed and thanked God for 5 days for the healing. Not against Doctors though. I thanked them for the help they gave me.