The Problem of Petitionary Prayer for Divine Healing

[Berserk]

I can't do all 5 at once. Each point needs talked about and if one makes a post too long most won't read them. So how does one pursue the type of faith necessary for healing? Is that what you're asking?

First faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. One must study through the scriptures and see just what God's will is and what he has said about it. You'll never have faith to believe for healing without it as you would never have faith for salvation unless you hear the gospel.

I will add this about your later statements. Does anyone knows one healed of blindness or some other serious affliction. I do. I myself had retina detachment early this year.....I did have a procedure done to join it back up (gas bubble in my eye...ha...won't get into that) but coming back 5 days later I came back...to do a check.....read 4-5 lines down....Doc was amazed saying two kind of breaks we call them....good kind...bad kind.....you had the bad kind.

We never really see one coming back seeing as good as you are.......(not that they don't see at all but no where as good as I was) They sent me across the hall.....to another type professional....they looked at the computer screen they looked at me and said Wow! You really can see that good? Yup I said....but my wife said but we believe in God and prayer.....And I had prayed and thanked God for 5 days for the healing. Not against Doctors though. I thanked them for the help they gave me.

Thank God for your unusual recovery. But what I'm looking for are obvious healings of blindness,
deafness, and congestive heart failure that are clearly supernatural, i. e. don't include surgery.

 

[ARBITER01]

I agree. And people of these earlier days what they did with their time was everything. Many today would call them extreme. Wigglesworth wouldn't even allow a newspaper in his house. Everything in their spirit was the word of God with an absolute focus and they considered that n

I think smith had 17 documented raisings from the dead, though I never seen any documentation affirming it. Ms Etter had every sort of healing to a body imaginable happen when she laid her hands upon folks, and this happened every single day. She always put everyone's testimonies that they sent her in her books also. Some of those are pretty darn amazing.

Looking at the current state of the body of Christ, there's many reasons that we don't see such things happen anymore.

 

[Bobber]

"Keep on asking, and you shall receive, etc." Jesus praises healing faith when He encounbters it and rebukes His disciples doubts in failing to heal precisely because we must play a role in mediating healing to others.

So what's your problem then. It seems you've got a grasp on what Jesus requires. But it seems you're resisting it.

 

[Bobber]

On the contrary, I started this thread precisely because I want better answers to the OP's questions. The church of my youth was the first Pentecostal church in Canada, a direct outgrowth of the Azusa Street Revival. I used to attend Kathryn Kuhlman healing rallies. So I believe in miracles and am heavily immersed in Pentecostal folklore.

So I assume you went to church maybe in Toronto in that time period? I got saved in 76....I recall Kathryn Kuhlman, watched her on TV never went any time to a meeting. Read her book "I believe in miracles" So what are you asking? Do you feel you don't see any of the miracles of that day? Are you doubting they were real?

 

[Berserk]

So I assume you went to church maybe in Toronto in that time period? I got saved in 76....I recall Kathryn Kuhlman, watched her on TV never went any time to a meeting. Read her book "I believe in miracles" So what are you asking? Do you feel you don't see any of the miracles of that day? Are you doubting they were real?

What am I asking? LOL. The OP.s 5 basic questions which you and others are ducking!

 

[Bobber]

(2) How can we know what it feels like to have authentic faith for divine healing?

Feels like? It doesn't matter what it feels like. If I asked one what's it like to have their drivers license they might respond with doesn't matter how they feel. The only thing of importance is that they're trained on the right way to drive.

When we think we have faith for healing but no healing results, was our faith flawed or is there an elusive relationship between faith and healing?

Yes that is possible. We live in a time where you're not allowed anymore to suggest this but they'd probably get upset at Christ himself when he told
his disciples what he did in Matt 17:20 when they asked him why they couldn't get a certain one delivered/healed.

 

[ARBITER01]

Feels like? It doesn't matter what it feels like. If I asked one what's it like to have their drivers license they might respond with doesn't matter how they feel. The only thing of importance is that they're trained on the right way to drive.


Yes that is possible. We live in a time where you're not allowed anymore to suggest this but they'd probably get upset at Christ himself when he told
his disciples what he did in Matt 17:20 when they asked him why they couldn't get a certain one delivered/healed.

He doesn't want answers, he just wants to argue. It's up to you Bob if you wish to engage with him much.

 

[Berserk]

(2) How can we know what it feels like to have authentic faith for divine healing?

arbiter 01: "Feels like? It doesn't matter what it feels like. If I asked one what's it like to have their drivers license they might respond with doesn't matter how they feel. The only thing of importance is that they're trained on the right way to drive."

Driver's licenses can be faked; and healing faith can be faked by wishful thinking, despite your so-called "training the right way."

 

[ARBITER01]

arbiter 01: "Feels like? It doesn't matter what it feels like. If I asked one what's it like to have their drivers license they might respond with doesn't matter how they feel. The only thing of importance is that they're trained on the right way to drive."

Driver's licenses can be faked; and healing faith can be faked by wishful thinking, despite your so-called "training the right way."

Lolol,...

I'm actually one of the few on here that has some understanding as to how GOD operates the gifts of healings through people. I took some time and talked about it here,...

Fellowship - The gifts of healings (Read the ruleset before you post)

I'm gonna open a thread on the gifts of healings since there have been so many threads on that subject here lately. I don't think people really understand how GOD utilizes the gifts in most situations and they revert back to just trying to get answers through prayer. GOD has provided more than...

www.christianforums.com

I'm about to put some more info up on that subject this weekend, but I'll go ahead and buy you a clue here Vanna, it's not all about faith, it's about obedience and holiness. You're not going to get anywhere near the oil of gladness from GOD without obedience and a dedication towards holiness from Him. That's the difference between the old Saints that GOD operated through and these wanna-be types of the modern world. There's reasons why we don't see people in the body of Christ operating in these gifts nowadays,.... they don't want to pay the price that's required. They can't be a chosen because they have no ambition to be led by The Holy Spirit.


Your topic, your responses, your sarcasm, only shows the difference between someone who has been taught and trained by The Holy Spirit (Me), and someone (I'm pointing at you) who relied upon men and their teachings instead. Your knowledge of Greek and your reliance upon other people's opinions will get your nowhere on this topic.

When we are born again, there is still the choice between the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you chose the later.

 

[Bobber]

arbiter 01: "Feels like? It doesn't matter what it feels like. If I asked one what's it like to have their drivers license they might respond with doesn't matter how they feel. The only thing of importance is that they're trained on the right way to drive."

Driver's licenses can be faked; and healing faith can be faked by wishful thinking, despite your so-called "training the right way."

So what? If the license is not fake it's not fake. You don't ask someone with such a thing what does it feel like when you've got it. You just use it. Remember you're the one who asked the question,

How can we know what it feels like to have authentic faith for divine healing?

I answered your question.

 

[Bobber]

(5) The Bible identifies or implies several conditions that should be satisfied for the experience of healing miracles.

So I'll take your word for it that you believe that it does.

When in need of healing, how important is it to systematically identify biblical conditions for healing and then try to satisfy them?

Well you just said above you believe the Bible identifies conditions that SHOULD be satisfied to the experience of healing. Your exact words. So if you believe that haven't you got the answer to your question? Satisfy them then.

Remember....if you believe Jesus has said something why ask us how seriously you should take his words?

 

[Berserk]

Well you just said above you believe the Bible identifies conditions that SHOULD be satisfied to the experience of healing. Your exact words. So if you believe that haven't you got the answer to your question? Satisfy them then.

Remember....if you believe Jesus has said something why ask us how seriously you should take his words?\T

The problem is that many Christians take His conditions seriously and still aren't healed and helaing failure can always be rendered unfalsifiable in principle and therefore epistemologically meaningless by claiming either (1) that Jesu's conditions must not have been satisfiied or (2) that a healing must not have been God's will.

Bobber: "So what? If the license is not fake it's not fake. You don't ask someone with such a thing what does it feel like when you've got it. You just use it. Remember you're the one who asked the question."

Duh, what you don't get is that so many Christians become embittered because they thought they had healing faith, but they weren't healed, and this triggers a faith crisis. Hence, the problem of petitionary prayer.

 

[Bobber]

The problem is that many Christians take His conditions seriously and still aren't healed and helaing failure can always be rendered unfalsifiable in principle and therefore epistemologically meaningless by claiming either (1) that Jesu's conditions must not have been satisfiied or (2) that a healing must not have been God's will.

So? Why can't people be willing to go back to the drawing board and review and yes even maybe review again and again exactly what they did or didn't do. Jesus own disciples attempted, too certain actions to get one delivered once. They failed to do so. They went back to the Master and he told them why. Matt 17:19 Of course they weren't excited that he told them they had missed it and the came to him privately and asked him. We can only be hope that they in meekness were open to his correction. Question is....ARE WE?

Duh, what you don't get is that so many Christians become embittered because they thought they had healing faith, but they weren't healed, and this triggers a faith crisis.

LOL Don't say Duh to me. Or I could say Duh to you. LOL Don't you understand that I get that? Don't you think that I haven't seen that before. I'm 66 and have been around the block quite a few times. Seen people for years on message boards expressing discontent over this or that.....why God didn't do something. I still say one needs to get back to the drawing board, review and review again, and again and again if need be. Is there a place where one has missed it?

They should never be so proud where they say no way. There was a time in Jesus ministry where just about everybody left him when he talked about eating his flesh and drinking his blood. Instead of staying in there and getting to the bottom of it away they went. Jesus even asked his own disciples do you want to go too??? They wisely responded that no Lord....you're the only one who has the words of eternal life! I'd encourage you Berserk....don't be offended or stay that way, if that's what you are.

Hence, the problem of petitionary prayer.

There's no problem with what Jesus taught about prayer.

 

[ARBITER01]

LOL Don't say Duh to me. Or I could say Duh to you. LOL Don't you understand that I get that? Don't you think that I haven't seen that before. I'm 66 and have been around the block quite a few times. Seen people for years on message boards expressing discontent over this or that.....why God didn't do something. I still say one needs to get back to the drawing board, review and review again, and again and again if need be. Is there a place where one has missed it?

He talks of a faith crisis.

Well,.... maybe people were not paying attention to what The Holy Spirit said,...

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

The earlier manuscripts have Christ there instead of the later usage of GOD. If Jesus didn't say to you that you were going to be healed by GOD, then you won't be. Faith cometh by "hearing." It's the Living Word that gives us faith, not the written word.

As I said earlier, it is the faith "OF" The Son of GOD. He's the one that creates great faith in us, and that comes from a close relationship with Jesus.

 

[Berserk]

So? Why can't people be willing to go back to the drawing board and review and yes even maybe review again and again exactly what they did or didn't do.

In fact, they do that repeatedly and petitionary prayer just doesn't work for them. So they humble themselves and seek consolation in the hope that petitionary prayer might work for others in their church, only to find that everyone they know has the same problem. soo they continue in prayer in an unenthusiastic mechanical manner because they don't know what else to do. The human mind can't endure endless disappointments.

 

[Bobber]

In fact, they do that repeatedly and petitionary prayer just doesn't work for them. So they humble themselves and seek consolation in the hope that petitionary prayer might work for others in their church, only to find that everyone they know has the same problem. soo they continue in prayer in an unenthusiastic mechanical manner because they don't know what else to do. The human mind can't endure endless disappointments.

But you're still not addressing the issue. The disciples all of them were frustrated as to why they all couldn't get a boy delivered. You still not saying anything that the Bible doesn't say about the collective experience of all the disciples when they couldn't get a boy healed. So what did he tell them?

 

[Berserk]

But you're still not addressing the issue. The disciples all of them were frustrated as to why they all couldn't get a boy delivered. You still not saying anything that the Bible doesn't say about the collective experience of all the disciples when they couldn't get a boy healed. So what did he tell them?

First, Jesus gets really angry and rebukes them for their lack of faith. Wso angry?

"You faithless generation, how much longer must I be among you? How much longer must I put up with you (Mark 9:19)?"

Later He offers them the vague reason that they failed because of a prayer problem:

"This kind can come out only through prayer (n0t "and fasting"--9;29)."

But that vague answer brings us back to this thread's issue: Jesus doesn't tell them what's wrong with their prayer life.
In copying Mark, Matthew reacts to this inadequate reply by substituting a saying from Q that just makes the problem worse:

"Because of your little faith! For truly I tell you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, "Move from here to there," and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you (17:20)."

What does Jesus mean by implying that the tiniest imaginable amount of faith will work miracles?
Then later scribes try to improve on Mark's text by adding "and fasting" to 9:29.



.

 

[Bobber]

In copying Mark, Matthew reacts to this inadequate reply by substituting a saying from Q that just makes the problem worse:


Then later scribes try to improve on Mark's text by adding "and fasting" to 9:29.



.

So I brought out two lines of our post....let's deal with them first......So look first of all who am I talking to here? Am I talking to someone who is a genuine Christian who is looking for answers or am I talking to someone who merely is seeking to decimate people faith? What is it? Do you believe yes or no the Bible is credible and one can look at it as a reliable guild to truth? That's what I believe and if you don't believe that let me know and then we're done. (unless I wanted to engage over on the atheist pages there I'd talk to you. Point

is there's no sense in me even giving scriptural answers if you're laughing behind the scenes with you snickering to say "Ha ha....I don't even believe in Bible answers no matter what he says" I have no desire for you stringing me along in your game if that's what you're playing. Here's an answer to your the adding of prayer and fasting to the text down below. So again the question....is there anything about the scriptures you consider credible? YES or NO? No offence but I'm not willing to let someone try to spin me around in circles. You're either a believer or you are not.

https://www.gotquestions.org/only-come-out-by-prayer-and-fasting.htm

 

[Bobber]

Nor Beserk I clicked on your other thread with your testimony. Very interesting. I have no doubt you weren't telling the truth......and your baptism experience of seeing the Lord. So you have as well been highly educated in theological circles and I believe you said you are or have been a professor. The question still is....where are you coming from? Do you have FAITH in the scriptures or not? Do you have FAITH in Jesus or not? And I don't even mean do you believe that he exists but do you believe Jesus is of a good, kind loving and gracious character. I do and if you've departed from that way of thinking then I'm not sure how much time I'm willing to invest to talk you out of your being upset with God (IF THAT'S WHAT YOU ARE)

 

[Berserk]

I have served as a Theology professor for 12 years and an evangelical pastor from 1994-2015. During that time, I was asked to conduct a 6-hour workshop on prayer for other pastors. So I'd be surprised but delighted if you could come up with a biblical insight on prayer that I've overlooked. As young man, I witnessed house-to-house and in the street for Youth with a Mission for a couple of months. As you can see from my evolving Journey thread, I have had many supernatural experiences of the gifts of the Spirit, but no personal experience of divine healing. So my OP questions, which no one here addresses head-on, are the honest questions that have emerged from a lifelong spiritual quest.

I fully expected fundamentalists here to get defensive and judgment about someone they don't know.; so I'm not really disappointed. I just assume that most of their prayer lives are merely cerebral and powerless--far removed from the glorious prayer life envisaged in Scripture.