Struggling With The Sabbath

[Frogster]

No Sir your understanding of Church history is severely flawed. They did not identify as Christians. They were Jews and they were disciples. Christian was a slanderous term the disciples were called by Pagans. And actually "Christianity" is a religion of Jewish origin.

Bit it was still used, in Acts 26 Paul acknowledged that he was a Christian. Peter said Christian in 1 Peter 4. Some scholars say it was not derogatory in Acts 11.

 

[Frogster]

duplicate.

 

[Frogster]

No Sir your understanding of Church history is severely flawed. They did not identify as Christians. They were Jews and they were disciples. Christian was a slanderous term the disciples were called by Pagans. And actually "Christianity" is a religion of Jewish origin.

gen 15:6, had nothing to do with a Jewish origin, in fact, everywhere Paul used Abraham, who first got the gospel as a gentile, was used to ward off Judaism, law, circumcision, pride, nationalism, ethnic supremacy, etc.

 

[Frogster]

The whole bible was exclusive to the children of Israel. We are grafted into Israel, not the other way around.

The Old covenant was with Israel and the New Covenant was directed towards Israel as well.

how am I grafted into a tiny land mass called Israel, when I live in the USA?

paul was a new cov minister, and it included gentiles.

 

[Frogster]

Romans 14:1 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions.

The key to understanding Romans is the first verse. If you didn't know whether meat at a community meal had been offered to idols and chose to eat only vegetables to stay on the safe side, then that was your opinion. If you felt free to everything at a community meal, then that was your opinion. However, if you felt free to disregard God's dietary laws, than that was disobedience to God.

Luke 18:11-12 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’

Didache 8:1 Your fasts should not be with the hypocrites, for they fast on Mondays and Thursdays. You should fast on Wednesdays and Fridays.

Romans 14:6 makes it clear that regarding one day as more sacred than another is in regard to fasting. Fasting twice a week was a common practice in the 1st century and was often done to commemorate certain days, but it was a matter of opinion. Like the Pharisees and in the Didache, people were judging each other according whether they fasted and when they fasted, but the only time God commanded people to fast was Yom Kippur. So again, Paul was talking about disputable matters of opinion, not about obedience to the commands of God.

There had differences of opinion about how to keep the Sabbath, but they didn't have differences of opinion about whether to keep it. The Sabbath is not even mentioned in Romans 14.

but Paul said that the Lord told him, all meats clean in 14:14, and the fact that he said any day for Sab in 14:5, dhows it does not matter what day, Sunday or Wednesday. 14 was about the Sabbath, it had to be, the Jews would not be arguing about any other day.

 

[Frogster]

Oops, sorry, it looks like my previous replay got accidentally split between listed and Cribstyle.



The Renewed covenant involves the law being written on our hearts, so it includes the basic structure, but with better promises, a superior mediator, and superior sacrifice.

The Hebrew word "chadash" used in Jeremiah 31:31 can more accurately be translated as "renewed". It refers to new in quality rather than new in time, such as repairing something.



The law was never intended to be kept legalistically. If Abraham and David were justified by faith (Romans 4:1-8) and all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, then everyone who has ever been justified has been justified by faith, including Moses and the Israelites. This means that they were already declared righteous by faith before God gave them the law. So the purpose of the law was never to provide us with a means of becoming justified through our own effort and it was always meant to be kept by faith. God gave the law to Moses, among other reasons, so that those He had declared righteous would know how to practice righteousness and to build a relationship though faith between God and His people. Keeping the law legalistically in an attempt to become justified by your own effort is a perversion of the law. GracetotheHumble never said that he keeping the Sabbath because seeks to secure his salvation. Rather, he seeks to grow in his relationship with God by demonstrating his faith and love to God through obedience to His commands.

It is not renewed or the same laws would be verbatim, there is no temple, and Acts 15 said no Torah yoke for the church. No renewed cov. Is God writing on my heart, that i can't eat a lobster in butter?

 

[Frogster]

Amen! Just like the Psalmists, you understand that the obedience to God's commands was meant to be a delight, not a legalistic burden that the Pharisees perverted them into. I commend your obedience to God through the working of His Spirit.

I asked you for some proof of oral law in galatians, or proof of it in Acts 15, and i did not get one verse.

 

[BobRyan]

Oops, sorry, it looks like my previous replay got accidentally split between listed and Cribstyle.



The Renewed covenant involves the law being written on our hearts, so it includes the basic structure, but with better promises, a superior mediator, and superior sacrifice.

The Hebrew word "chadash" used in Jeremiah 31:31 can more accurately be translated as "renewed". It refers to new in quality rather than new in time, such as repairing something.



The law was never intended to be kept legalistically. If Abraham and David were justified by faith (Romans 4:1-8) and all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, then everyone who has ever been justified has been justified by faith, including Moses and the Israelites. This means that they were already declared righteous by faith before God gave them the law. So the purpose of the law was never to provide us with a means of becoming justified through our own effort and it was always meant to be kept by faith. God gave the law to Moses, among other reasons, so that those He had declared righteous would know how to practice righteousness and to build a relationship though faith between God and His people. Keeping the law legalistically in an attempt to become justified by your own effort is a perversion of the law. GracetotheHumble never said that he keeping the Sabbath because seeks to secure his salvation. Rather, he seeks to grow in his relationship with God by demonstrating his faith and love to God through obedience to His commands.

Good points all.

nice.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

It is not renewed or the same laws would be verbatim, there is no temple, and Acts 15 said no Torah yoke for the church. No renewed cov. Is God writing on my heart, that i can't eat a lobster in butter?

Turns out - the Gospel is not about eating lobster.

I thought we all knew that.

 

[BobRyan]

staff edit

Paul said "what matters is keeping the commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

and of course "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23 - for all eternity in the New Heavens and New Earth.

And then there is "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.

Which illustrates that the subject matters.

Good post by the way.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Chuck Smith was a pretty solid bible teacher but I don't agree with every single one of his views. For instance he teaches the pre trib rapture theory and I don't believe in that.

Anyway can we refocus this discussion back to it's intended purpose of a Sabbath Day discussion. .

Excellent -- once again.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[GracetotheHumble]

Why did God wait more than a 1,000 years to inform mankind of this? Essentially this is nothing more than an out of context proof text which disagrees with Moses.

13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.

14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. EX 31

bugkiller

Actually many Sabbath keepers believe God's faithful remnant have been keeping the Sabbath since he instituted it at creation.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

2 chron 2:4 Behold, I am about to build a house for the name of the Lord my God and dedicate it to him for the burning of incense of sweet spices before him, and for the regular arrangement of the showbread, and for burnt offerings morning and evening, on the Sabbaths and the new moons and the appointed feasts of the Lord our God, as ordained forever for Israel.

i have about 9 more verses showing that the law, which included the 10 in the old cov, were not given to gentiles, so 'man" must be appropriated properly.

Jesus Christ told his disciples that they must do and teach the commandments so the Sabbath must be for all followers of Christ.

 

[Elder 111]

Originally Posted by GracetotheHumble

Notice that Jesus Christ stated the Sabbath was made for "man"? He didn't say it was made for Jews.
​

Why did God wait more than a 1,000 years to inform mankind of this? Essentially this is nothing more than an out of context proof text which disagrees with Moses.

13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.

14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. EX 31

bugkiller

Why was the word remember used in giving the Sabbath command?

 

[GracetotheHumble]

Bit it was still used, in Acts 26 Paul acknowledged that he was a Christian. Peter said Christian in 1 Peter 4. Some scholars say it was not derogatory in Acts 11.

Man it is the general consensus that Christian was a derogatory name. And it was barely used in scripture. When you look at the scripture in Peter he talks about suffering as a Christian so it doesn't appear that being called Christian was such a positive thing.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

gen 15:6, had nothing to do with a Jewish origin, in fact, everywhere Paul used Abraham, who first got the gospel as a gentile, was used to ward off Judaism, law, circumcision, pride, nationalism, ethnic supremacy, etc.

You need to check the following link: How Jewish Was Paul? - Jews for Jesus

 

[GracetotheHumble]

Paul said "what matters is keeping the commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

and of course "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23 - for all eternity in the New Heavens and New Earth.

And then there is "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.

Which illustrates that the subject matters.

Good post by the way.

in Christ,

Bob

Thank you Bob. I have been keeping a Saturday Sabbath awhile and I am leaning towards this being the right way.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

Here is an excellent debate on the Sabbath. I haven't finished it yet but what I've seen so far is very good: http://youtu.be/LdfeMkgqgrQ

 

[GracetotheHumble]

Really? I'm giving out licenses to sin?
Should I act shocked about honesty? The honesty I see is: struggling with God's word...All of it.

Based on your request for directions, I pointed you to the Gospel,(not the law) and made it clear, I'm not pointing to sin.
Under the disguise of "struggling" you've presented the customary same old drive-by arguments\condemnation without clear scriptures to prove your words.

Q: Why would someone who is struggling not point to specific scriptures for discussion?
A: Maybe they're have another agenda than to understand what others believe.

I had a big negative rebuttal written to this but I decided that I am not going to be overcome by evil and allow your bitterness to get the best of me. So all I can say is God bless you and I pray that he will open your eyes. Have a wonderful day.

 

[listed]

Jesus Christ told his disciples that they must do and teach the commandments so the Sabbath must be for all followers of Christ.

Please show us your proof text.