Struggling With The Sabbath

[bugkiller]

Of course I'm being honest I don't even understand why that is a question here. I gave this question so I can continue my learning and possibly also edify some other sheep of Christ. Also this topic is one of the most hotly debated in the church and so I still haven't rested it in my mind.

Brother I already know that God is real all you have to do is look at the Sun and feel his spirit. I have been studying the scriptures 30 years and I attended a bible college for 3 years. So I do have some knowledge of the scriptures. Excuse me if I'm being prideful right now but I'm trying to explain a little more of my background.

I understand what you are saying about the cross and I understand the atonement somewhat. I guess brother where my disagreement with you comes is that I have a hard time believing that because Christ died we now have a licence to sin.

The topic of the Sabbath was never raised in any church I attended in more than 40 years.

bugkiller

 

[GracetotheHumble]

But you disregard the Book of the Law (Moses), God's prophets, the Gospels and the historical record of Acts. Do you accept anything but bits and pieces?

bugkiller

I actually went through the entire bible cover to cover with Calvary Chapel Pastor Chuck Smith and I have read the entire scriptures on my own probably more than once. So I do take the entire book rather seriously. But go ahead and continue slamming me because when you do you only expose yourself to everyone on the forum who is viewing your rude comments as a wolf in sheep's clothing.

 

[Soyeong]

When a police officer shows you grace instead of writing you a ticket for speeding, does that mean that traffic laws are abolished and you are now free to speed? No, his grace should encourage you to willingly obey traffic laws.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

Whew this thread covers a lot of ground and moves pretty quick.

I notice you have a problem with quite a few of my friends here.

From your list of organization I gather you're more about religion and self justification than you're about salvation and a relationship with God. Quit listening to others and read your, well OTH maybe I should say the Bible. You feel condemned because you're trying to measure up to the law and don't yet realize you never will. The Bible says so in Ps 14:3 and other places besides the writings of Paul. The law is called the ministration of death for a reason. It doesn't and can't provide grace and mercy. The law demands death for violation and will always get its demanded payment and sometimes twice.

I invite you to read and participate in my thread on Ex 20:8-11 especially since you claim to having problems with the Sabbath.

Oh yeah one more thing - you probably won't like me much either.

bugkiller

Well I'm unable to help your false perception of me. I am very much about a relationship with God. You show me your faith by what you say but I will show you my faith by what I do.

Also I never said I feel condemned. I actually feel closer to God than I have ever felt and the Sabbath is the day I usually learn the most and draw closest to him. The only people I am thinking are probably condemned are those who refuse to keep God's commands because when Jesus returns he is going to judge everyone according to their works.

As far as not liking you and your friends goes frankly I usually get along with others easily unless they are rude and quarrelsome individuals who make it their permanent business to set about to cause fights with others. At that point I prefer to disassociate myself from them.

Remember Jesus said that every idle word we speak we will be judged for. On that note I am calling it a day because I am tired and I'm afraid of what I might say.

 

[Hammster]

MOD HAT ON



A couple of things here. One, the thread has undergone a clean up. Why? I'm glad you asked.

Flaming and goading. It needs to stop.

Calling the LDS a cult is a violation. Calling them unorthodox is not. Promoting them, however, is not allowed.

Yeah, I think that covers it.


MOD HAT OFF

 

[Steeno7]

MOD HAT ON



A couple of things here. One, the thread has undergone a clean up. Why? I'm glad you asked.

Flaming and goading. It needs to stop.

Calling the LDS a cult is a violation. Calling them unorthodox is not. Promoting them, however, is not allowed.

Yeah, I think that covers it.


MOD HAT OFF

Why is it a violation to call it a cult, when it is???

 

[Hammster]

Why is it a violation to call it a cult, when it is???

Do not identify a group of members or a theological viewpoint with a derogatory or inflammatory label.

That's from the Statement of Purpose.

 

[Steeno7]

Do not identify a group of members or a theological viewpoint with a derogatory or inflammatory label.

That's from the Statement of Purpose.

Got it.

 

[listed]

I actually went through the entire bible cover to cover with Calvary Chapel Pastor Chuck Smith and I have read the entire scriptures on my own probably more than once. So I do take the entire book rather seriously. But go ahead and continue slamming me because when you do you only expose yourself to everyone on the forum who is viewing your rude comments as a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Your position indicates you don't believe or don't understand what you read. Your study with Chuck Smith must not have been very complete or he is more off base than I thought.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

Your position indicates you don't believe or don't understand what you read. Your study with Chuck Smith must not have been very complete or he is more off base than I thought.

Chuck Smith was a pretty solid bible teacher but I don't agree with every single one of his views. For instance he teaches the pre trib rapture theory and I don't believe in that.

Anyway can we refocus this discussion back to it's intended purpose of a Sabbath Day discussion. And please can we refrain from being rude and bashing one another. God bless and I hope everyone has a wonderful day today.

 

[Steeno7]

Your position indicates you don't believe or don't understand what you read. Your study with Chuck Smith must not have been very complete or he is more off base than I thought.

Yeah really. Chuck Smith is great, and couldn't possibly be any further removed from the LDS and SDA's.

 

[listed]

Do not identify a group of members or a theological viewpoint with a derogatory or inflammatory label.

That's from the Statement of Purpose.

Amazing, but should not be surprised.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

MOD HAT ON



A couple of things here. One, the thread has undergone a clean up. Why? I'm glad you asked.

Flaming and goading. It needs to stop.

Calling the LDS a cult is a violation. Calling them unorthodox is not. Promoting them, however, is not allowed.

Yeah, I think that covers it.


MOD HAT OFF

I was actually begging for the conversation about the LDS to stop in this thread as this thread is about the Sabbath so no I wasn't trying to promote them here. Also I was begging for the rudeness to end. So thank you Hammster for cleaning things up. God bless you Sir.

 

[listed]

Romans 7:1-4 Or do you not know, brothers[a]—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? 2 For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. 3 Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.

Paul was speaking to those Jews and Gentiles who knew the law, not to tell them their knowledge of how to keep the law was of no value, but rather he was making an example from the law that they would understand. If Paul were making a metaphor where everything in it represented something else, then it would not make sense. Are we represented by the wife? No, we are dying to the law and it is the husband who is dying. Are we represented by the husband? No, it is the wife who is free to come under a new master.

Furthermore, the wife's husband died, she would not be freed from any of the other laws, but just that aspect of the law that would penalize her if she were to live with another man while her husband was still alive. If after her husband died and she married another man, she would be bound again to that same law. So the wife was not dying to the marriage law, but the penalty that it would require for breaking it. Paul was building to his conclusion in Romans 8:1 that there therefore is no condemnation for those who are in Messiah. This still exists God's commands for how to practice righteousness and it is always important for God's people to practice that.



Indeed, the Gospel is about righteousness by faith apart from the law, which Paul talked about in Romans 3:21-30, but he added verse 31 to make sure that no one misunderstood him and thought that the law played no part in the Gospel. Being declared righteous is just the beginning of the Christian walk, the Good News is also that we are set free from sin to become slaves of obedience, leading to righteousness and sanctification. Just like Moses was declared righteous by faith before he was given the law at Sinai, he needed to be given it so that those who God declared righteous would know how to practice righteousness in obedience to Him.



Indeed, the law is how we know what sin is (Romans 7:7), so acting unlawfully is sin and Paul said in Romans 6:15 that being under grace didn't mean we were to sin. Christians are citizen of the commonwealth of Israel by faith in Messiah, so as God people who should follow the law that God gave to His people to obey.



And we are part of Israel by faith in Messiah, so we should keep those commands forever.



Indeed, why would God's people think it was unimportant to obey His instructions?

I do not think of Paul as some ignorant babbling drunk fool not in his right mind.

You have him saying we are obligated to keep the law while he says we are delivered from the law.

 

[listed]

Well brother, pardon me because I'm having trouble understanding your honesty.
On one side of your mouth you're looking for a church (Sabbath or Sunday, Oh please help me brothers).
On the other side of your mouth those not keeping Sabbath or the law have a license to sin? We know you're not accusing us of being killers or thieves are you? You're accusing us of breaking the Sabbath.

With your 30yrs of experience are you going to show us where God requires Sabbath keeping or are you going to condemn us by a law that God says we're not under? What answers did you 3yrs of bible college give?

Consistency does seem to be a problem.

 

[listed]

Well my friend I think you better double check the scriptures because when Christ returns he is going to judge everyone according to their works.

I'm not saying you can earn the atonement or forgiveness of sin but what I am saying is unless you are doing good works you will have no treasure in heaven.

I can give you many bible verses to support my position but I don't desire to overwhelm you. So I recommend you read Matthew 5:17-22. God bless. In his grace.

I am at peace with all the issues concerned. I used to be in turmoil until I fully accepted the invitation Jesus issued in Mt 11:28-30. I fought it tooth and toe nail.

 

[listed]

Oops, sorry, it looks like my previous replay got accidentally split between listed and Cribstyle.



The Renewed covenant involves the law being written on our hearts, so it includes the basic structure, but with better promises, a superior mediator, and superior sacrifice.

The Hebrew word "chadash" used in Jeremiah 31:31 can more accurately be translated as "renewed". It refers to new in quality rather than new in time, such as repairing something.



The law was never intended to be kept legalistically. If Abraham and David were justified by faith (Romans 4:1-8) and all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, then everyone who has ever been justified has been justified by faith, including Moses and the Israelites. This means that they were already declared righteous by faith before God gave them the law. So the purpose of the law was never to provide us with a means of becoming justified through our own effort and it was always meant to be kept by faith. God gave the law to Moses, among other reasons, so that those He had declared righteous would know how to practice righteousness and to build a relationship though faith between God and His people. Keeping the law legalistically in an attempt to become justified by your own effort is a perversion of the law. GracetotheHumble never said that he keeping the Sabbath because seeks to secure his salvation. Rather, he seeks to grow in his relationship with God by demonstrating his faith and love to God through obedience to His commands.

There is no renewed covenant.

The law issued at Mt Sinai is not what Jeremiah says will be written on our heart.

 

[listed]

Not to mention all the people he requires to work on his behalf for those mentioned services. Those people qualify as men and maidservants and are even invited to be within his gates delivering them.

bugkiller

That part of the Sabbath commandment is totally ignored.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

That part of the Sabbath commandment is totally ignored.

No one works for me on the Sabbath. I chill all by myself and see no one all day. I ask no one to work. If they do so that is their choice and between them and God.

 

[listed]

Beg your pardon. There is only one definition given for the word khä·däsh' 2319 and its - I. new, new thing, fresh. This word is an adjective. There is another word khä·dash' 2318 that gives your definition. This word is a verb. Both words are spelled the same much like read and read.

The word for make is the verb karath 3772 means to cut.Then why was it necessary for Jesus to keep the law legally/legalistically? Jesus failed in no part of the law.

bugkiller

Good catch and explanation.