Struggling With The Sabbath

[Cribstyl]

Of course I'm being honest I don't even understand why that is a question here. I gave this question so I can continue my learning and possibly also edify some other sheep of Christ. Also this topic is one of the most hotly debated in the church and so I still haven't rested it in my mind.

Brother I already know that God is real all you have to do is look at the Sun and feel his spirit. I have been studying the scriptures 30 years and I attended a bible college for 3 years. So I do have some knowledge of the scriptures. Excuse me if I'm being prideful right now but I'm trying to explain a little more of my background.

I understand what you are saying about the cross and I understand the atonement somewhat. I guess brother where my disagreement with you comes is that I have a hard time believing that because Christ died we now have a licence to sin.

Where do you get the idea that we have a license to sin? Who is asking you to believe that you have a license to sin?
We teach about sin and holiness so you're misrepresenting the facts. You must misunderstand the fact that law does not prevent sin, law only gives title and penalty to offenses. It should be a no brainer that sin was in the world before the law.

We both believe that God judges sin but you believe that God's judgment will be by the law. We believe if the law is our judge, no man will live.

 

[VictorC]

Let's review this once again...

You are asking why do I keep the Sabbath currently? Well the answer is quite complex. God rested on the seventh day when he created the world and also it is the 4th commandment.

Your statements don't offer any valid reason to "keep" (anything but Holy) the Sabbath.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

Let's review this once again...

Your statements don't offer any valid reason to "keep" (anything but Holy) the Sabbath.

Well Sir our heavenly Father instituted the Sabbath at creation. He sanctified the seventh day and set it apart and made it holy. He gave you an example to follow when he rested and this was for your benefit because the human body and mind needs recovery. If you fail to see at all where I am coming from then I am unable to help you.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

Where do you get the idea that we have a license to sin? Who is asking you to believe that you have a license to sin?
We teach about sin and holiness so you're misrepresenting the facts. You must misunderstand the fact that law does not prevent sin, law only gives title and penalty to offenses. It should be a no brainer that sin was in the world before the law.

We both believe that God judges sin but you believe that God's judgment will be by the law. We believe if the law is our judge, no man will live.

Yes I am saying that you are giving licence to sin brother. I am not trying to be mean or rude but God's word states that sin is transgression of the law. Jesus taught that we must not only keep the law but we must go far beyond it and exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees.

 

[VictorC]

Well Sir our heavenly Father instituted the Sabbath at creation.

False. I already mentioned the Sabbath's origin coincident with the manna experience in another post.

• The Genesis account doesn't record a rest observed by any human; the seventh day is in absolute terms rather than a repetitive cycle to describe God's rest.
• Exodus 20:11 clearly delineates the seventh day apart from the sabbath, using the same sentence structure found in Deuteronomy 5:15 that lists a single event in the past as the impetus to ordain the periodic sabbath.
• Hebrews 4 calls the seventh day of creation God's "My rest" that remained to be attained by a people who were already observing the sabbath, and Hebrews 4:4 quotes directly from Genesis 2:2 to document God's rest those who had the sabbath had not attained.
• Jesus distinguishes the sabbath apart from God's rest recorded in the Genesis account when He said it was "made for man" in Mark 2:27.
• Moses testifies that the ten commandments were unknown to the generation previous to his own in Deuteronomy 5:2-3, and lists the sabbath as a memorial of deliverance from Egyptian bondage in Deuteronomy 5:15.
• Nehemiah 9:13-14 attributes the origin of the sabbath with Moses.

He sanctified the seventh day and set it apart and made it holy. He gave you an example to follow when he rested and this was for your benefit because the human body and mind needs recovery. If you fail to see at all where I am coming from then I am unable to help you.

You haven't helped anyone, and an arrogant ignorance of the Law is a disability to any learning curve.

The seventh day was God's rest, and that rest hasn't ended. Somewhere you confused God's permanent rest we have an unction to enter into with the periodic Sabbath you were never given. I posted on this recently on a parallel thread:

You ignore what the seventh day was, a singular event never repeated, which was God's rest.

Hebrews 4
Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:

“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’”

although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.​

David saw another day beyond the Sabbath.
Joshua leading Israel into the promised land didn't provide God's rest.
Indeed, that rest remained a promise unavailable during the Sabbath's tenure.

A tenure that didn't include the Gentiles living in Carribean island nations.

The Christian of faith has entered into that rest originating since the seventh day, God's rest, a singular event that hasn't ended. We already have the seventh day. This is what you are missing when you can't differentiate the tense of key verbs.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

False. I already mentioned the Sabbath's origin coincident with the manna experience in another post.

• The Genesis account doesn't record a rest observed by any human; the seventh day is in absolute terms rather than a repetitive cycle to describe God's rest.
• Exodus 20:11 clearly delineates the seventh day apart from the sabbath, using the same sentence structure found in Deuteronomy 5:15 that lists a single event in the past as the impetus to ordain the periodic sabbath.
• Hebrews 4 calls the seventh day of creation God's "My rest" that remained to be attained by a people who were already observing the sabbath, and Hebrews 4:4 quotes directly from Genesis 2:2 to document God's rest those who had the sabbath had not attained.
• Jesus distinguishes the sabbath apart from God's rest recorded in the Genesis account when He said it was "made for man" in Mark 2:27.
• Moses testifies that the ten commandments were unknown to the generation previous to his own in Deuteronomy 5:2-3, and lists the sabbath as a memorial of deliverance from Egyptian bondage in Deuteronomy 5:15.
• Nehemiah 9:13-14 attributes the origin of the sabbath with Moses.

You haven't helped anyone, and an arrogant ignorance of the Law is a disability to any learning curve.

The seventh day was God's rest, and that rest hasn't ended. Somewhere you confused God's permanent rest we have an unction to enter into with the periodic Sabbath you were never given. I posted on this recently on a parallel thread:

Sir I am going to be honest I feel like you are kind of a rude person and I also think your theology is strange and off base. I don't have hours to sit around and address all these verses individually with you because I have several other threads going. So I guess I am saying I apologize but I am no longer going to respond to you because I need to prioritize my discussion right now to people I feel are positive and are helping me learn and grow. So at least for today I am going to end our conversation. Have a nice day and may the Lord richly bless you as you continue to study his word.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

Amen! Just like the Psalmists, you understand that the obedience to God's commands was meant to be a delight, not a legalistic burden that the Pharisees perverted them into. I commend your obedience to God through the working of His Spirit.

Thank you brother. I am finding that when you follow God's will it's a blessing. I am hoping to continue learning more about him each day and grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. God bless you my friend. In his Grace...GracetotheHumble.

 

[VictorC]

Sir I am going to be honest I feel like you are kind of a rude person and I also think your theology is strange and off base.

Argumentum ad hominem is a logical fallacy often employed whenever Scripture doesn't say what you want to believe.

I don't have hours to sit around and address all these verses individually with you because I have several other threads going. So I guess I am saying I apologize but I am no longer going to respond to you because I need to prioritize my discussion right now to people I feel are positive and are helping me learn and grow. So at least for today I am going to end our conversation. Have a nice day and may the Lord richly bless you as you continue to study his word.

Bye

 

[Elder 111]

Which day I should observe it?

Saturday!

 

[bugkiller]

Well Sir our heavenly Father instituted the Sabbath at creation. He sanctified the seventh day and set it apart and made it holy. He gave you an example to follow when he rested and this was for your benefit because the human body and mind needs recovery. If you fail to see at all where I am coming from then I am unable to help you.

Incredible!!!!! Just incredible. This thread went from I'm having problems to I can't help you. I knew I smelled something wrong.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Well Sir most Sabbath keepers agree that the Sabbath was kept by God's faithful prior to the giving of the 10 Commandments. We can go really deep into this discussion and possibly debate for years. I encourage you to check out: Official Sabbath Debate Jim Staley vs. Chris Rosebourgh Passion For Truth Ministries on youtube.com. I learned a lot from what I watched so far. I'm going to continue learning and hopefully some here will have some valuable insight to share on this issue.

Where's your proof. I've been here a few years and haven't seen anyone provide this requested information yet. It doesn't exist in the Bible.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Sir I guess I am a little unsure about your question. You are aware that God wrote 10 Commandments in stone right? And you are also aware that #4 is "Remember the Sabbath day and to keep it holy". So I guess I'm a little unsure what you are asking. You have seen the movie with Heston?

But you disregard the Book of the Law (Moses), God's prophets, the Gospels and the historical record of Acts. Do you accept anything but bits and pieces?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Ephesians 2:12 and 2:19 says that Gentiles are now full citizens of the commonwealth of Israel by faith in Messiah. We are now all God's people and should follow the instructions He has given to His people to follow. The root is Messiah who is the root and unites us.



The Renewed Covenant involves the law being written on our hearts, so while it has better promises, a better mediator, and a better sacrifice, God's instructions for how to practice righteousness did not change.

Where do you get this renewed stuff from?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

You kind of seem rather hostile which is not a good sign as I doubt that Christ went around being hostile all the time. Anyway these are the Churches I have attended in my life and the ones I am currently investigating.

Attended or was member

Church Of The Nazarene - 18 years
United Pentecostal - 3 months
Calvary Chapel - 11 years
Calvary Chapel Bible College - 3 years
Calvary Chapel Youth Pastor - 6 months
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints - 8 months
Lutheran Church Missouri Synod - 2 years
Sovereign Grace Fellowship (Community) - 1 month

Currently Investigating

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints - attended this past Sunday
Seventh Day Adventist
United Church of God
26:8 Church
Seventh Day Baptists
Church of God (Seventh Day)


You are asking why do I keep the Sabbath currently? Well the answer is quite complex. God rested on the seventh day when he created the world and also it is the 4th commandment.

You say you can prove that I don't keep the Sabbath according to our Fathers command and I would like to see how you are going to do that since the command is to rest on the 7th day as he did when he created the world which is exactly what I do.

God bless you. Grace.

Whew this thread covers a lot of ground and moves pretty quick.

I notice you have a problem with quite a few of my friends here.

From your list of organization I gather you're more about religion and self justification than you're about salvation and a relationship with God. Quit listening to others and read your, well OTH maybe I should say the Bible. You feel condemned because you're trying to measure up to the law and don't yet realize you never will. The Bible says so in Ps 14:3 and other places besides the writings of Paul. The law is called the ministration of death for a reason. It doesn't and can't provide grace and mercy. The law demands death for violation and will always get its demanded payment and sometimes twice.

I invite you to read and participate in my thread on Ex 20:8-11 especially since you claim to having problems with the Sabbath.

Oh yeah one more thing - you probably won't like me much either.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

If:

- Your heat/AC/HRV unit is on during this time, you've automatically broken it. According to the 'electricity equal fire equal work' rule, these must be turned off, or unplugged.
- You flush your toilet, washed hands, you've broken it.
- You have a shower, you've broken it
- You have your fridge/stove/microwave/TV/PVR even plugged in, you've broken it (as most appliances consume small bits of electricity even if they are not in use. The PVR uses the most of this 'phantom power' as it's always downloading guide information from the cable company).

Not to mention all the people he requires to work on his behalf for those mentioned services. Those people qualify as men and maidservants and are even invited to be within his gates delivering them.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

I respectfully disagree my friend as I believe the commandments are the law.

Believe anything you wish. Its true the 10 Cs are the law. But to be a Christian you must believe and accept the NC which is based on better promises and not the law. Heb 8:6 The same chapter also says new and not according to.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Romans 14:1 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions.

The key to understanding Romans is the first verse. If you didn't know whether meat at a community meal had been offered to idols and chose to eat only vegetables to stay on the safe side, then that was your opinion. If you felt free to everything at a community meal, then that was your opinion. However, if you felt free to disregard God's dietary laws, than that was disobedience to God.

Luke 18:11-12 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’

Didache 8:1 Your fasts should not be with the hypocrites, for they fast on Mondays and Thursdays. You should fast on Wednesdays and Fridays.

Romans 14:6 makes it clear that regarding one day as more sacred than another is in regard to fasting. Fasting twice a week was a common practice in the 1st century and was often done to commemorate certain days, but it was a matter of opinion. Like the Pharisees and in the Didache, people were judging each other according whether they fasted and when they fasted, but the only time God commanded people to fast was Yom Kippur. So again, Paul was talking about disputable matters of opinion, not about obedience to the commands of God.

There had differences of opinion about how to keep the Sabbath, but they didn't have differences of opinion about whether to keep it. The Sabbath is not even mentioned in Romans 14.

Do you esteem Saturday?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Well my friend I think you better double check the scriptures because when Christ returns he is going to judge everyone according to their works.

I'm not saying you can earn the atonement or forgiveness of sin but what I am saying is unless you are doing good works you will have no treasure in heaven.

I can give you many bible verses to support my position but I don't desire to overwhelm you. So I recommend you read Matthew 5:17-22. God bless. In his grace.

I recommend you read and believe John 5:24.

I've already paste the judgment with flying colors and have (eternal) life.

I'm content.

The rest Jesus gives to all who respond surpasses in Mat 11:28-30 any rest the Sabbath offers.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Oops, sorry, it looks like my previous replay got accidentally split between listed and Cribstyle.



The Renewed covenant involves the law being written on our hearts, so it includes the basic structure, but with better promises, a superior mediator, and superior sacrifice.

The Hebrew word "chadash" used in Jeremiah 31:31 can more accurately be translated as "renewed". It refers to new in quality rather than new in time, such as repairing something.

Beg your pardon. There is only one definition given for the word khä·däsh' 2319 and its - I. new, new thing, fresh. This word is an adjective. There is another word khä·dash' 2318 that gives your definition. This word is a verb. Both words are spelled the same much like read and read.

The word for make is the verb karath 3772 means to cut.

The law was never intended to be kept legalistically. If Abraham and David were justified by faith (Romans 4:1-8) and all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, then everyone who has ever been justified has been justified by faith, including Moses and the Israelites. This means that they were already declared righteous by faith before God gave them the law. So the purpose of the law was never to provide us with a means of becoming justified through our own effort and it was always meant to be kept by faith. God gave the law to Moses, among other reasons, so that those He had declared righteous would know how to practice righteousness and to build a relationship though faith between God and His people. Keeping the law legalistically in an attempt to become justified by your own effort is a perversion of the law. GracetotheHumble never said that he keeping the Sabbath because seeks to secure his salvation. Rather, he seeks to grow in his relationship with God by demonstrating his faith and love to God through obedience to His commands.

Then why was it necessary for Jesus to keep the law legally/legalistically? Jesus failed in no part of the law.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

He never said anything about earning salvation through works. As Ephesians 2:8-10 is saying, we are saved by grace through faith, not by practicing righteousness, but for the purpose of practicing righteousness. Works in obedience to God's commands are the proper outflowing of our faith.

Works of the law aren't the natural out flowing of obedience to God in the NC. See Acts 15 for example. If it were natural there wouldn't have been an issue or a council.

bugkiller