Strongest evidence from scripture for predestination and strongest rebuttal against predestination

[JohnB445]

Is this a simple thing to understand, moderate or difficult. I understand that some doctrines from the Bible can be challenging for new Believers such as the book of Revelation. It seems everything needs careful study.

I've been stuck on this doctrine for 4 years and always pondered on it. I am really curious what way does God save others.

First it would help with just.some general perception. Do most Christians believe in predestination?

And what is the percentage. And what broad denominations are more likely to believe in it and I'm talking in general, so Catholism, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant.

And here is a little bit about how I think about this. Predestination can both make me feel at ease and in absolute shock. At ease believing that I am secure, and always was going to be secure as it was my fate. But also in absolute shock that others will have a different fate and there is not anything they could do about it and they never even had a choice.

This makes me incredibly sad. That's why I want to get to the bottom of this.

There is much more details but I don't want to make this post longer than it already is.

 

[friend of]

I consider myself an Arminian, but I still accept the notion of election and predestination because it's mentioned in scripture. I'm just not entirely sure how to reconcile it will free will.

 

[BobRyan]

Is this a simple thing to understand, moderate or difficult. I understand that some doctrines from the Bible can be challenging for new Believers such as the book of Revelation. It seems everything needs careful study.

I've been stuck on this doctrine for 4 years and always pondered on it. I am really curious what way does God save others.

First it would help with just.some general perception. Do most Christians believe in predestination?

And what is the percentage. And what broad denominations are more likely to believe in it and I'm talking in general, so Catholism, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant.

And here is a little bit about how I think about this. Predestination can both make me feel at ease and in absolute shock. At ease believing that I am secure, and always was going to be secure as it was my fate. But also in absolute shock that others will have a different fate and there is not anything they could do about it and they never even had a choice.

This makes me incredibly sad. That's why I want to get to the bottom of this.

There is much more details but I don't want to make this post longer than it already is.

The fact that God knows the future does not mean he dictates it.

You are talking about the "ability" of infinite God to know something and yet still give people free will -- so that is trying to sit in God's chair.

in human terms - think of it this way
1. You watch a movie
2. You then go back to that movie with a friend and watch it again

So now you can predict everything that will happen in the movie - but you did not make the people do what they did.

That is as close as it gets for humans.

The Bible says God loves the World John 3:16 and that He "is not willing for anyone to perish" 2 Peter 3.

It does not say anyone is "predestined for hell" even though God knows the end with 100% accuracy.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Is this a simple thing to understand, moderate or difficult. I understand that some doctrines from the Bible can be challenging for new Believers such as the book of Revelation. It seems everything needs careful study.

I've been stuck on this doctrine for 4 years and always pondered on it. I am really curious what way does God save others.

First it would help with just.some general perception. Do most Christians believe in predestination?

And what is the percentage. And what broad denominations are more likely to believe in it and I'm talking in general, so Catholism, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant.

And here is a little bit about how I think about this. Predestination can both make me feel at ease and in absolute shock. At ease believing that I am secure, and always was going to be secure as it was my fate. But also in absolute shock that others will have a different fate and there is not anything they could do about it and they never even had a choice.

This makes me incredibly sad. That's why I want to get to the bottom of this.

There is much more details but I don't want to make this post longer than it already is.

Time and time again I come across this dilemma with those who adhere to the Calvinist doctrine. It pains me to hear such suffering with some folks as they struggle with the concept that God purposely creates people just so He can damn them to hell. Once there is doubt there are two ways you can go, 1) abandon Calvinism and start with a new lens, or 2) abandon Christianty altogether because you can't square this with your conscience. So I hope you pick number one. There are plenty of counter arguments for you to explore. My prayers are with you.
" SEEK AND YE SHALL FIND" Jesus Christ of Nazareth
Blessings.

 

[Jonaitis]

"The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble."
- Proverbs 16:4

One thing we cannot deny: that sinners will die in their sins.

It is not necessarily that predestination bothers you, but that predestination double confirms God's judgement against the reprobate. Many don't want to admit it, and they shy from openly saying it, but the idea of Hell in general bothers most people.

 

[Clare73]

Is this a simple thing to understand, moderate or difficult. I understand that some doctrines from the Bible can be challenging for new Believers such as the book of Revelation. It seems everything needs careful study.

I've been stuck on this doctrine for 4 years and always pondered on it. I am really curious what way does God save others.

First it would help with just.some general perception. Do most Christians believe in predestination?

And what is the percentage. And what broad denominations are more likely to believe in it and I'm talking in general, so Catholism, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant.

And here is a little bit about how I think about this. Predestination can both make me feel at ease and in absolute shock. At ease believing that I am secure, and always was going to be secure as it was my fate. But also in absolute shock that others will have a different fate and there is not anything they could do about it and they never even had a choice.

This makes me incredibly sad. That's why I want to get to the bottom of this.

There is much more details but I don't want to make this post longer than it already is.

You can start with the Biblical fact that it is NT apostolic teaching (Ro 8:29-30, Eph 1:5, Eph 1:11).

Then a good working knowledge of God is beneficial, as in the classic, Knowing God by J. I. Packer.

This will give you a basis for understanding as you read the whole Bible, with the assistance of a good Commentary.

 

[eleos1954]

Is this a simple thing to understand, moderate or difficult. I understand that some doctrines from the Bible can be challenging for new Believers such as the book of Revelation. It seems everything needs careful study.

I've been stuck on this doctrine for 4 years and always pondered on it. I am really curious what way does God save others.

First it would help with just.some general perception. Do most Christians believe in predestination?

And what is the percentage. And what broad denominations are more likely to believe in it and I'm talking in general, so Catholism, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant.

And here is a little bit about how I think about this. Predestination can both make me feel at ease and in absolute shock. At ease believing that I am secure, and always was going to be secure as it was my fate. But also in absolute shock that others will have a different fate and there is not anything they could do about it and they never even had a choice.

This makes me incredibly sad. That's why I want to get to the bottom of this.

There is much more details but I don't want to make this post longer than it already is.

If God predetermined who would or would not be saved .... then there is no reason for Jesus.

 

[Clare73]

If God predetermined who would or would not be saved .... then there is no reason for Jesus.

That's not to say God didn't require their debt be paid. . .the reason for Jesus.

 

[eleos1954]

That's not to say God didn't require their debt be paid. . .the reason for Jesus.

That's not to say God didn't require their debt be paid. . .the reason for Jesus.

Who's debt was paid? Everyone's or just the "predestined" ones?

 

[Clare73]

Who's debt was paid? Everyone's or just the "predestined" ones?

I'm of the opinion that
1) God does nothing in vain and
2) justice does not allow the same debt to be assessed twice.

Therefore,
1) the debt is paid only for the elect and
2) not for the non-elect for that would be two payments for the same debt, one by Jesus and one by the sinner.

 

[Jipsah]

And what is the percentage. And what broad denominations are more likely to believe in it and I'm talking in general, so Catholism, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant.

They ought to, since Scripture explicitly states that God predestines us. Lookee here:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

So God has chosen us. Kind of makes any opposing choices we might make irrelevant, doesn't it it? And He has prior claim, since He chose us before the foundation of the world. Let that sink in for a minute. HE...CHOSE...US. Apparently before He even laid the keel for this universe.

The only way around that is the usual sleazy "That isn't what that really means..." schtick, which I personally find contemptible. If you have to doctor the "meaning" of Scriptures to fit your doctrine then you're working at it backwards.

Make your doctrine fit what Scripture says rather than what you reckon it ought to say! If your doctrine doesn't jibe with Scripture, then your doctrine is rubbish. But lets soldier on:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Having done what there? Presdestinated us. Not "foreseen what we were going to do". Not "recognized the outcome of decisions that we would make based upon our sacred and inviolable Free Will. Not "having made it possible for us to decide to be adopted as children by Jesus Christ to himself". but predesinated us.

Predestinate verb
pre·des·ti·nate prē-ˈde-stə-ˌnāt
predestinated; predestinating
transitive verb
1
: to foreordain to an earthly or eternal lot or destiny by divine decree
2
archaic : PREDETERMINE

Oh, wanna quibble about "foreordain"? I thought you'd never ask!

Foreordain verb​

fore·or·dain ˌfȯr-ȯr-ˈdān
transitive verb
: to dispose or appoint in advance : PREDESTINE

Nothing at all about foreknowledge, or prescience, or any of the other normal escape hatches used by those desperate for Scripture not to say anything about predestination. It says what it says. Onward...!

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

He did what? "He hath made us accepted". Not "He hath foreseen that we were gonna accept Him, and therefore added us to the list of the saved". Nope, not a bit of it. It was His doing from the beginning. No "soli Free Will gloria" jive here. We get no brownie points for our tremendous sagacity, and no awards for having been clever enough to use our vaunted Free Will to gain eternal life. We were given life, and all undeserved.

Wanna answer back? Wanna complain that God has violated your sovereign Free Will? That He's offended your Sacred Will? Wanna complain that you're being dragooned into Heaven, and dragged kicking and screaming into Paradise? Go for it, let us know how it turns out. Let's move on...

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

What?! Not your will but His? Oh, the humanity! Who does God think He is, anyway? Doesn't He know that He's not allowed to tread on our magnificent Free Will?

Yeah, I know, a bunch of you have typed in your addle-pated "what that really means is... " responses. I anticipate them being a rehash of the usual blather that would have Almighty God limited by the dimwitted and ignorant "will" of His fallen and corrupt creatures. Maybe you'll surprise me, but it seems unlikely.

 

[Jipsah]

Who's debt was paid? Everyone's or just the "predestined" ones?

Apparently it was only paid for those whose Free Will impelled them to avail themselves of the benefits of having their debts paid. To those not clever enough to claim the reward, Christ's sacrifice was worthless, and they get roasted alive for all eternity. But hey, such decisions can't be safely entrusted to God. He'd just chuck everyone (but of course, mostly innocent children and kindly unbelievers) into hell to be tormented in perpetuity because He works in random and arbitrary ways His wonders to perform. Decisions like these can only be safely left to corrupt and generally stump-dumb fallen humans. Right.

 

[Jipsah]

If God predetermined who would or would not be saved .... then there is no reason for Jesus.

Yeah, because after all, apart from relatively trivial stuff like creating the universe and and all that's in it, our Lord Christ has nothing to do but yank such sinners as are smart enough to holler His for help out of the fire. (He can't do it without their asking, because that would violate the Absolute Sanctity of Human Will around which the entire cosmos was designed.)

 

[FutureAndAHope]

In the title, you asked for one of the better verses to show whether predestination is true or not. My favorite verse that shows that it is not true, that we have a choice is the following scripture where Jesus talks about how we receive the Holy Spirit.


John 14:15-24 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

A person who believes in predestination will say:

1. Man is blind to the truth, and bound in sin
2. God selects certain men for redemption and opens their eyes by giving them the Holy Spirit
3. He leaves the rest in a blinded state

But that is not what Jesus says, Jesus says:

1. God gives man knowledge (of his commands)
2. Man either accepts them and God opens their eyes
3. Or man rejects the commands and remains blind

The acceptance of God's commands, is presented throughout scripture, as we see in Job.

Job 36:9-12 Then He tells them their work and their transgressions—That they have acted defiantly. He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

Note the two choices that man has.

 

[Jonaitis]

You know what is evidence of foreordination? The Tabernacle of Moses.

Why would god have Moses construct a tabernacle unless he knew that Israel would live as nomads in the wilderness for forty years? Sure, they still had it in the days when Shiloh was the place of worship during Judges, but the set up of the tabernacle's design was nomadic.

"Surely you shall not come into the land in which I swore to make you dwell, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun. Your little ones, however, who you said would become plunder⁠—I will bring them in, so that they will know the land which you have rejected. But as for you, your corpses will fall in this wilderness. And your sons shall be shepherds for forty years in the wilderness, and they will suffer for your unfaithfulness, until your corpses come to an end in the wilderness. According to the number of days which you spied out the land, forty days, for every day you shall bear your guilt a year, even forty years, and you will know My opposition."
- Numbers 14:30-34 Legacy Standard Bible

God rejected them from entering the land because of their unbelief, yet god had them build a transportable place of worship before this event ever happened. It becomes clear that god had no intention at all of letting them enter the land upon their first arrival. He structured their way of life ahead of their sinning. He wanted them to wander for forty years as nomads. This is of no coincidence. It is actually ironic.

 

[sawdust]

Is this a simple thing to understand, moderate or difficult. I understand that some doctrines from the Bible can be challenging for new Believers such as the book of Revelation. It seems everything needs careful study.

I've been stuck on this doctrine for 4 years and always pondered on it. I am really curious what way does God save others.

First it would help with just.some general perception. Do most Christians believe in predestination?

And what is the percentage. And what broad denominations are more likely to believe in it and I'm talking in general, so Catholism, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant.

And here is a little bit about how I think about this. Predestination can both make me feel at ease and in absolute shock. At ease believing that I am secure, and always was going to be secure as it was my fate. But also in absolute shock that others will have a different fate and there is not anything they could do about it and they never even had a choice.

This makes me incredibly sad. That's why I want to get to the bottom of this.

There is much more details but I don't want to make this post longer than it already is.

I believe in predestination just not predestined to believe. Rather, we are predestined to God's purpose as believers. ie. we (Church age believers) are predestined to be in the body of Christ.