Stop blaming Blacks!

[Evan Jellicoe]

And what is exactly America not doing to help? We have laws protecting them. We have welfare state that is there to help the poor. Yet they still commit a disproportionate number of crimes and violent crimes for their race. Yet they have the same opportunities as everyone else [no, they actually don't]. They can get jobs, go to school, go to college, go to trade schools. They even have their own colleges.

I don't know what more we can do.

That appears to be a good, practical argument for doing nothing. In fact, there was an advisor under. . .I think it was Reagan, but could have been Nixon. . .who advised a period of "benign neglect" (hands off for a while). That created a serious blowback.

But I think it's wrong to minimize just how much mainstream America did to harm blacks as individuals and as a society. And I find it hard to believe that such a hammering for such a long time would not have obvious, long-term bad results.

Bottom line: I agree with those who believe that something ought to be done, and I don't accept that just because it is difficult to find the right response is enough reason to quit trying.

 

[Speedwell]

And what is exactly America not doing to help? We have laws protecting them. We have welfare state that is there to help the poor. Yet they still commit a disproportionate number of Crimes and violent crimes for their race. Yet they have the same opportunities as everyone else. They can get jobs, go to school, go to college, go to trade schools. They even have their own colleges.

What more needs to be done. At some point you HAVE to look at the societal culture that has seeped into the black community.

I do t know what more we can do. There even have been attempts at bringing businesses into their communities, but those investments turned sour when they kept being robbed, burglarized and vandalized.

I know you are a good Christian man and oppose racism and perhaps sincerely believe that you are not racist yourself. But if I didn't know you and was just looking at the words you have written, I would have to say that was a racist post.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

And what is exactly America not doing to help? We have laws protecting them. We have welfare state that is there to help the poor. Yet they still commit a disproportionate number of Crimes and violent crimes for their race. Yet they have the same opportunities as everyone else. They can get jobs, go to school, go to college, go to trade schools. They even have their own colleges.

What more needs to be done. At some point you HAVE to look at the societal culture that has seeped into the black community.

I do t know what more we can do. There even have been attempts at bringing businesses into their communities, but those investments turned sour when they kept being robbed, burglarized and vandalized.

We have such a neighborhood that suffered the loss of their only large supermarket. Two different companies tried to make a go of it, but failed. Shoplifting as well as customer choices (buying mostly low profit items) caused prices to rise, which exacerbated the problem. Finally the store closed, creating a 'food desert' in that part of town.

 

[Kaon]

It's the Western Values and Principles and many centuries of slavery and discrimination that made them who they are right now.

It's far too convenient to just blame them than make an effort to understand.

They used to be them:

You are wasting your time; you know better.

 

[Evan Jellicoe]

timewerx said: ↑
It's the Western Values and Principles and many centuries of slavery and discrimination that made them who they are right now. It's far too convenient to just blame them than make an effort to understand.

You are wasting your time; you know better.

"You are wasting your time." In what way? Without an explanation, this statement is no more useful than "You are wrong." Why do you want us to believe he is wasting his time?

"You know better." Better than what? What evidence do you offer to back up that assertion?

 

[bèlla]

I would begin by looking at the common denominators that successful people of color possess and how they address challenges without derailing themselves.

Positive mindset
Disciplined
Diligent
Responsible
Patience
Perseverance
Planning

The biggest stumbling blocks are poor decision-making and negative mindsets. Many opportunities are sabotaged or significantly delayed due to choices. You have to develop a conviction that you're not following suit no matter what.

~Bella

 

[Kaon]

"You are wasting your time." In what way? Without an explanation, this statement is no more useful than "You are wrong." Why do you want us to believe he is wasting his time?

"You know better." Better than what? What evidence do you offer to back up that assertion?

The message was for exactly who it was for... I have no interest in playing games of human logic and reason for, or against the OP. It is a waste of energy.

 

[Evan Jellicoe]

The message was for exactly who it was for... I have no interest in playing games of human logic and reason for, or against the OP. It is a waste of energy.

In that case, a private message might have been more appropriate. This way it just looks like you want to make assertions without bothering to support them. Maybe that wasn't your intent, but that's the way it looks.

 

[Kaon]

In that case, a private message might have been more appropriate. This way it just looks like you want to make assertions without bothering to support them. Maybe that wasn't your intent, but that's the way it looks.

Everything on these forums look like someone doesn't provide evidence for assertions to most people - even of evidence is shown. I don't bother to care how or what I post looks like since, also, it is usually mistaken for something else until I explain it 12 times over five pages of exchange.

Dropping a message that needs to reach multiple people - without context or regard, even, for other conversations within the thread - is a necessary action to avoid the inefficiency.

Private messages are for actual exchanges of ideas and philosophy between two people who consent to a conversation - along with [publically published or self-derived] evidence based on the principles of the discipline. Pub is if you want to experience intellectual trolling (as a perpetrator or victim) whilst navigating the exploitable rules of the forum. That is why my message was directly to @timewerx About a third of the people I converse with in pub I have to ignore because of a discernable trajectory on present and future conversations.

 

[Evan Jellicoe]

I don't bother to care how or what I post looks like since, also, it is usually mistaken for something else until I explain it 12 times over five pages of exchange.

The first half of the sentence might explain the second half.

 

[rjs330]

If a significant proportion of the unemployed on that block are unemployed as a consequence of the owners of the factories they used to work in shifting their production to China because that will let them make more profit and afford a larger yacht, would you still maintain no blame attached to outsiders?

341 comparable examples are available upon request, one at a time.

Would you have required those businesses to stay? And how would you have done that?

 

[rjs330]

Obviously more complicated and a forum is not the place to deliver an eighty page dissertation with comprehensive bibliography addressing some of those complications, but none of that changes the binary option:

• One considers that no one is owed a job.
• One considers that the right to work is an essential part of human dignity.

Now we know which side each of us comes down on.

An economy is not based on the right to work. That's a Communist idea. An economy is based upon businesses needing workers and workers needing a job. No one has a right to work, be that a CEO or a hamburger flipper. You sell your labor to someone who needs it. Each job needs a certain set of skills. Not everyone has the skills that are needed.

You can't run an economy on a workers have a right to work ideal unless you are communist. You can't have people walking into a business and demanding a job just cause they have a right. A real thriving economy is based upon need. Not right.

 

[rjs330]

That appears to be a good, practical argument for doing nothing. In fact, there was an advisor under. . .I think it was Reagan, but could have been Nixon. . .who advised a period of "benign neglect" (hands off for a while). That created a serious blowback.

But I think it's wrong to minimize just how much mainstream America did to harm blacks as individuals and as a society. And I find it hard to believe that such a hammering for such a long time would not have obvious, long-term bad results.

Bottom line: I agree with those who believe that something ought to be done, and I don't accept that just because it is difficult to find the right response is enough reason to quit trying.

And what do you suggest? What can be done that hasnt been done already. There is no doubt that the blacks suffered under Jim Crowe. No doubt whatsoever. But that ended 50 years ago.

They now have equal rights and equal opportunity. Blacks can work anywhere they want to. They can be whatever they want to be as much as any American. They can get a college education. They can learn any trade. They can live any where they want to, eat any place they desire.

What more do you want?

 

[rjs330]

I know you are a good Christian man and oppose racism and perhaps sincerely believe that you are not racist yourself. But if I didn't know you and was just looking at the words you have written, I would have to say that was a racist post.

How so? Have you lived in the black social culture. I have relatives who have.

You are doing exactly what liberals do. You point our an issue and suddenly you are spewing racism. I am merely repeating what black people have said. So apparently they are racist against their own people?

 

[Evan Jellicoe]

An economy is not based on the right to work. That's a Communist idea. An economy is based upon businesses needing workers and workers needing a job. . .A real thriving economy is based upon need. Not right.

I think it was established upthread a little way that if the choice is binary, then, no, there is no "right" to work. On the other hand, an unfettered capitalist economy of the sort that Ayn Rand posited in Atlas Shrugged, which some Tea Party people have held up as an ideal example, is actually pretty horrible from a Christian standpoint. (I actually read the book to see what all the fuss was about. It is an OK novel, but a grim and terrible view of human nature and social responsibility.)

Let's just say that when in the 70s most mainstream economists came around to the idea that the purpose of a company is to make a profit for its shareholders, with all other concerns being secondary, you might as well have added that the "god of this world" (I Corinthians 4:4) had revealed himself as the great and mighty Mammon. No, money is not inherently evil, but love of money is the root of all sorts of evil (I Timothy 6:10). In a Christian society (which America is not, but I can still use that as an example) money would be only a means to an end, not an end in itself. The actual end (goal) would be human happiness and God's glory. "Human happiness," of course, does not necessarily mean being rich, but it generally means having enough material security to be able to live in contentment.

"Two things I asked of You,
Do not refuse me before I die:
Keep deception and lies far from me,
Give me neither poverty nor riches;
Feed me with the food that is my portion,
That I not be full and deny You and say, “Who is the Lord?”
Or that I not be in want and steal,
And profane the name of my God."

--Proverbs 30:7-9

 

[Speedwell]

How so? Have you lived in the black social culture. I have relatives who have.

I live in a predominantly black neighborhood now. It's a blue-collar family neighborhood of people in regular employment who own their own homes. I'm not sure what you mean by a "black social culture." It sounds like code for welfare queens and gang-bangers.

You are doing exactly what liberals do. You point our an issue and suddenly you are spewing racism. I am merely repeating what black people have said. So apparently they are racist against their own people?

What you appeared to have said amounted to "we have gone out of our way to end racism, so now it's up to them." Of course, racism is not ended. Statutory racism is ended and civil rights legislated and that is a positive step which many black Americans have taken advantage of. But that is not elimination of racism altogether. But it's the "them" that particularly struck me. Who do you mean by "them?"

 

[Evan Jellicoe]

And what do you suggest? What can be done that hasnt been done already. There is no doubt that the blacks suffered under Jim Crowe. No doubt whatsoever. But that ended 50 years ago.
They now have equal rights and equal opportunity. Blacks can work anywhere they want to. They can be whatever they want to be as much as any American. They can get a college education. They can learn any trade. They can live any where they want to, eat any place they desire.
What more do you want?

Well, we could start with getting state and local governments in the South to do a much better job of following all those equal rights and equal opportunities laws. Even though the Jim Crow laws have been eliminated, institutional racism is still alive and well in the South. (And much of the North, too, but it is measurably worse in the South. Much work remains to be done.)

 

[Hieronymus]

Sorry, but what was the deal again with that African country that begged the white farmers to come back again?

 

[Evan Jellicoe]

Sorry, but what was the deal again with that African country that begged the white farmers to come back again?

You mean this? Mugabe is asking back the white farmers he chased away

The eviction and expulsion of most of the white landowners was an ill-advised policy for a number of reasons, and the economic result was predictable. The foolish exercise of raw power has bad results, whether it comes from Robert Mugabe or Donald Trump. Bad decisions hurt the whole country.

Oh, and I love your signature verse. I refer to it a lot, especially the part ". . .from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. . ." It's a wonderful reminder of how all people, from whatever origin, have equal standing before God.

 

[rjs330]

I live in a predominantly black neighborhood now. It's a blue-collar family neighborhood of people in regular employment who own their own homes. I'm not sure what you mean by a "black social culture." It sounds like code for welfare queens and gang-bangers.


What you appeared to have said amounted to "we have gone out of our way to end racism, so now it's up to them." Of course, racism is not ended. Statutory racism is ended and civil rights legislated and that is a positive step which many black Americans have taken advantage of. But that is not elimination of racism altogether. But it's the "them" that particularly struck me. Who do you mean by "them?"

Here are some writing of people you might note. Please understand that this isn't about trying to say there has no wrong been done in the past. No it's about finding a way forward for the black community as a whole. Having these problems is a societal cultural issue.

Black Culture has Taken a Wrong Turn | HuffPost

Most serious problems for blacks rooted in culture, not racism - The Citizen

Why African Americans Are Going Backwards.

Charles Barkley Is Right on ‘Acting White’

There is plenty more. There is a problem in the black community. It's not about their whole culture or their entire race for Pete's sake. But there is a problem there that needs to be honestly looked at and adjusted.

There absolutely IS racism. I doubt very much that racism will be needed any time soon. There are racist white people, Asian people, African Americans etc. And there is as much racism in the back community as there is in the white community. It's a terrible fact of the human condition. And it should be fought against by everyone.

But if you are going to fix a plight of a group of people, then that group needs to look at the inside as well as the outside.

All I can do as a white dude is treat a black person as I would treat everyone else. And I do. Because in my mind what defines you is not your skin color, it's your character.