Still hope?

[Hferry22]

Hi folks,

I have read all of your posts since my last one and I will hope to put some of these issues to rest for you going forward.

1. It is God's will for this marriage to not only survive but to thrive. Any advice or comments to the contrary is against God's Word. My prayer is that BOTH my wife and I hear God's voice in all of this above all else. She has her mom and her best friend who are understandably upset with me and perhaps, perhaps, could be voices that need to be prayed over as they give input to my wife.

2. I was NOT aware that my behavior was considered abusive until April 20th when my wife read the letter to me. I have a joking, sarcastic sense of humor that has not been well received in the marriage from day one. She married me and chose to have two children with me.

3. Once the abusive wording was brought out I IMMEDIATELY started looking for counseling, personal. Yesterday was my first "real" session with a licensed professional. More on that below...

4. My wife admits to enabling the behavior by not addressing the issue sooner. This is her "part" in all of this. My wife is a stuffer and not the communicator that I am so things will fester for a long time before they are brought up. My therapist, from yesterday, believes she should have brought all of this up sooner, I agree. My behavior was brought up in our marriage but in "passing" and never to this degree. No excuse on my part but sometimes you don't get the message unless you are shaken. I've been shaken.

5. If my wife is shut off emotionally from me right now then I don't expect any sex from her. We are in essence separated but living together. I cannot control that end of things. I've honored and respected her space in both of those areas. Is it abusive? I don't feel that it is. These are her feelings and I have to respect those. It will be awhile before intimacy is restored.

Update:

On Tuesday I drove down near Baltimore to stay the night in a hotel to prep for my BIG 2.5 hour therapy session yesterday. This is THE appointment I was looking forward to more than anything. This is a 30 year licensed clinical therapist who knows what he is doing. I had homework to do that I had worked on for three weeks.

It was a very hard session for me personally but a much needed one on the road to personal healing for me. I learned a TON about myself, how I am wired, shaped, etc...As things began to be uncovered it was like it all just connected to where I am now. Basically, my father joked with my mom and she did not like it. I married my mom and have become my father. I made steps yesterday in counseling to break those chains. This will take some work to "rewire" me but I'm doing it and will do it.

Because my dad has never been available to me spiritually (he was also gone a lot when I was a kid due to work), I have viewed God with his arms crossed over his chest and unavailable to me. We did a powerful exercise yesterday that began a process of me seeing God as he is and not as my earthly father. This will be HUGE for me going forward.

God is not punishing me for my sins. Our marriage is where it is because of the sins we both have committed, namely me. However, God is not removing her from me or anything like that; this is not his nature or character. He hates divorce.

So, with those lies the enemy has been throwing at me out of the way I can now focus on ME and getting better, personally. My wife and kids are all wrapped up in this of course but I can only work on ME.

I came home yesterday evening and my wife asked me how my trip went and if the session was helpful; I said it was very good. I think it's a great sign that she asked me.

We have ceased marriage counseling with this couple at the local church; neither one of us felt good about them after two sessions. However, in those two sessions my wife got a lot out which I think helped her. I did mention before my visit yesterday that I would see if my therapist would have any local recommendations and she said she was fine with me exploring that option. I could tell she wasn't fully into it but I understand. When I came home yesterday I was "anxious" to let her know that I had a referral; again she wasn't fully into it and I just asked her to be honest. Bottom line is that she wants to hold off on marriage counseling while I work on more individual sessions. My takeaway from that is that she doesn't want to invest time or energy in marriage counseling until she sees REAL changes in me.

Thoughts?

 

[HannahT]

Bottom line is that she wants to hold off on marriage counseling while I work on more individual sessions. My takeaway from that is that she doesn't want to invest time or energy in marriage counseling until she sees REAL changes in me.

That's fine! Remember the individual is the one that has to make their own personal decision on where/when/how to work on their own stuff. She has to be ready to do that or you are just spinning your wheels. The same goes for marriage counseling. You won't make any process if her heart isn't in it right now. That doesn't mean she won't change her mind later.

Nothing should stop you from going forward! This should be for you FIRST, and the rest will fall into place. You can do this!

 

[mkgal1]

Thoughts?

It really sounds like that was a very productive time with that therapist.

God is not punishing me for my sins. Our marriage is where it is because of the sins we both have committed, namely me. However, God is not removing her from me or anything like that; this is not his nature or character.

What an amazingly helpful discovery (in the first visit!). When people believe this idea that "God is punishing/chastising me" or "the enemy is attacking my marriage" it seems to take the "heat" off them and allows them to just "take it" (the punishment) instead of taking accountability for their behavior and words (as you have now done). Pats on the back for that.

I cannot control that end of things. I've honored and respected her space in both of those areas. Is it abusive? I don't feel that it is. These are her feelings and I have to respect those. It will be awhile before intimacy is restored.

You're correct in this (I believe). She's just giving you an honest response. This is what genuine intimacy is (sincerity). You're doing great in respecting her feelings and her boundaries (that helps to build trust again).

My therapist, from yesterday, believes she should have brought all of this up sooner, I agree. My behavior was brought up in our marriage but in "passing" and never to this degree.

Sure....she should have (in a perfect world)....but people only share what they feel "safe" in sharing and what they believe will actually be heard. If you were being dismissive and belittling her in the past, I doubt she expected you to actually "hear" her and understand. But that is--hopefully--in the past. Like you're saying...you can only change yourself....so it doesn't really matter now what she *should have done* in the past.

She has her mom and her best friend who are understandably upset with me and perhaps, perhaps, could be voices that need to be prayed over as they give input to my wife.

This is probably something you may want to talk to her about. Her mom and her best friend aren't actually her best sounding boards for any marital grievances she has (since they have real life relationships with you). They are naturally going to be protective of her, and will most likely hold onto things even longer than she does (and may keep reminding her of the past).

She should find some support from people that don't have a relationship with you (not people that are going to automatically side with her...but people that will be honest and unbiased with her--like you've done by posting on this board).

Great progress, though! I'm praying for you two.

 

[Hferry22]

That's fine! Remember the individual is the one that has to make their own personal decision on where/when/how to work on their own stuff. She has to be ready to do that or you are just spinning your wheels. The same goes for marriage counseling. You won't make any process if her heart isn't in it right now. That doesn't mean she won't change her mind later.

Nothing should stop you from going forward! This should be for you FIRST, and the rest will fall into place. You can do this!

Correct, I cannot control her at this point. She's the one in control right now. I'm "behaving" and working on me right now. It is her heart that God needs to soften during this time and not even towards me but towards him.

 

[Hferry22]

It really sounds like that was a very productive time with that therapist.

What an amazingly helpful discovery (in the first visit!). When people believe this idea that "God is punishing/chastising me" or "the enemy is attacking my marriage" it seems to take the "heat" off them and allows them to just "take it" (the punishment) instead of taking accountability for their behavior and words (as you have now done). Pats on the back for that.

You're correct in this (I believe). She's just giving you an honest response. This is what genuine intimacy is (sincerity). You're doing great in respecting her feelings and her boundaries (that helps to build trust again).

Sure....she should have (in a perfect world)....but people only share what they feel "safe" in sharing and what they believe will actually be heard. If you were being dismissive and belittling her in the past, I doubt she expected you to actually "hear" her and understand. But that is--hopefully--in the past. Like you're saying...you can only change yourself....so it doesn't really matter now what she *should have done* in the past.


This is probably something you may want to talk to her about. Her mom and her best friend aren't actually her best sounding boards for any marital grievances she has (since they have real life relationships with you). They are naturally going to be protective of her, and will most likely hold onto things even longer than she does (and may keep reminding her of the past).

She should find some support from people that don't have a relationship with you (not people that are going to automatically side with her...but people that will be honest and unbiased with her--like you've done by posting on this board).

Great progress, though! I'm praying for you two.

Yes, it was a very productive day for me.

This is what I believe...the letter she read on April 20th brought this out to the open to finally deal with. I agree she probably did not feel safe enough to bring it up sooner but it DID come out. That's God. I also believe that my visit to see my dad a few days later when he revealed what my mom said also was a divine meeting. It further enhanced (like I needed it) the urgency to go get help and to change. Finally, I also believe that yesterday's meeting was another divine meeting that exposed/brought out childhood issues that have never been dealt with. It's provided me a course of action to take and a path to follow with further therapy.

This weekend marks one month since the letter was written; much has happened in me but much more needs to at this point.

My therapist gave me a book to read that has to do with loving your wife after you commit an affair; the title escapes me even though I'm half way done reading it In the book I take nuggets of truth out of it to apply to this situation. The bottom line is that this will take awhile to heal. Her feelings need to be validated and she needs to be heard. She said a lot of scary things in those two marriage counseling sessions. Those were her feelings coming out that I have to "take it." She deserves to say what she wants and how she wants.

On Monday I had the most intense prayer time that I've ever had. I took oil and anointed the windows and doorways of my home. I don't think you have to scream to get your point across but I was so emotional in praying over the home and family and it was very intense. The emotions came from guilt, fear, brokenness, etc...

I would also agree that she needs more reasonable voices in her life but she is not one to seek them out.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

I know this is sort of off topic but I would have had counseling together. Its weird to have it apart. Because the person listening is only getting one side of the story. Thats why theres marriage counseling. BTW not excusing being snide to her of course, you have to be careful with how you say things to a spouse.

I like to be funny but I try to be careful because if you go overboard it can be bad. Though admittedly sometimes I will use sarcasm to convey my feelings in a passive-aggressive way. To be fair my wife is ok with it only because she knows I am frustrated with how shes not taking care of things she should be doing and its putting our life on hold. Again, still not the best way to go about it of course.

 

[Hferry22]

Hey everyone, there is a HUGE development from last night.

My wife has asked me to leave the home for four months while she processes everything, seeks God, and goes to more personal counseling during this season. I am devastated right now that I have to leave my home and find a place to lay my head. I have two boys, 12 and 2. She has setup three nights a week for me to come by for dinner but she will be out of the home when I come by.

Our ONLY hope is Jesus right now...

 

[snoochface]

Did something precipitate her decision to ask you to leave, that you know of? I'm sorry - keep praying.

 

[Hferry22]

No, in fact when I returned from my trip to MD for my counseling session on Wednesday she was in good spirits; same with yesterday. I'm very upset right now on many levels. It's over...

 

[snoochface]

I think it's possible that your time away for the therapy made her realize that she could take a deep breath without you in the house. I don't think that means it's over, especially since she is still willing to seek God and go to personal counseling. I think it just means that she felt a relief from having you out of the house for a while, and that might give her the freedom in her mind to really figure out what she wants by experiencing it for a while. She put a four month time limit on this new arrangement. That means she is still willing to give the marriage a chance. She just needs the break right now.

 

[Hferry22]

I think it's possible that your time away for the therapy made her realize that she could take a deep breath without you in the house. I don't think that means it's over, especially since she is still willing to seek God and go to personal counseling. I think it just means that she felt a relief from having you out of the house for a while, and that might give her the freedom in her mind to really figure out what she wants by experiencing it for a while. She put a four month time limit on this new arrangement. That means she is still willing to give the marriage a chance. She just needs the break right now.

Maybe, since I live here and see it all it's hard to think it's not over. She says she has noticed changes but doesn't believe they are real but just surface changes. I can't win right now and now I have to move out and my whole world is upside down now.

 

[snoochface]

It's reminding me of how people who are damaged work in relationships, whether it's romantic, or a child with a parent, or whatever kind of relationship it is. But the person who is hurt and fragile will constantly test the person they are trying to learn to trust. Push, push, push, do you still love me, is it really real? And then the test is passed and there's a relaxation period, and then push, push, push again. I don't know if this is what she is doing or not. But if she sees the changes but can't trust that they are real and not surface level, whether it's conscious on her part or not, this is a real test for you to double down and prove that your changes are real, deep, sincere, and lasting.

I know you're hurting. And I know it's going to be a hellacious time having to find somewhere to live for four months and not be able to see your kids. But let this be a real time of proving yourself to her. Show her that you are willing to do this out of your love for her and your commitment to changing and growing for her and for your marriage. Be kind and empathetic, show concern for her, show a willingness to do whatever it takes, and keep working on yourself. That's how you show her that these are not surface level, short-term changes. By making them deep and long-term.

 

[Hferry22]

How do I do all of that when there is no plan; it's just separation. I cannot text her at all unless it is about money; we are keeping it all joint right now and paying bills as normal. I will only see her when I come by to see the kids on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday and then it's only briefly because she will leave the house then. It just "feels" over to me now that she has gone from hopeful, to hopeless, to separation.

My pastor and his wife and my associate pastor and his wife would like to meet with both of us this weekend. It's an intervention of sorts to talk and go from there. No one believes a separation like this is any good at all, especially with no plan. This is why it "feels" over and how do I love her and prove anything to her from a distance?

 

[snoochface]

By respecting her needs and giving her space, but making it clear that you are still working hard. You'll be talking in that four months, more than just about finances. You have kids, and logistics, and you'll be speaking. You use every interaction as an opportunity to show that you respect what she's going through, you love her, and you're willing to do whatever it takes to keep improving and to allow her to trust you again.

Right now, this is what it takes.

 

[Hferry22]

This is just so surreal to me and no one here on my end thinks this is a good idea. I've done everything that she has asked me to do and then some and so far it's still not good enough. I don't know if it ever will be good enough.

 

[snoochface]

But what's your alternative? You can't grab her by the hair and caveman her into letting you stay (not that I think you'd do that.) This is your opportunity to prove to her that you are in this for the long haul, that you aren't making changes just for her or for the marriage, but for yourself, and for life. Don't give up and prove instead that her worries are valid and that you aren't serious about changing. If she is determined to have this four month separation, she's going to have it one way or another. You can either go into it with the goal to continue to improve yourself and respect where she is in her process, or you can go into it kicking and screaming and bringing everyone you know into it to try to strong-arm her into changing her mind. Which do you think she'll respond to?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Hi folks,

I have read all of your posts since my last one and I will hope to put some of these issues to rest for you going forward.

1. It is God's will for this marriage to not only survive but to thrive. Any advice or comments to the contrary is against God's Word. My prayer is that BOTH my wife and I hear God's voice in all of this above all else. She has her mom and her best friend who are understandably upset with me and perhaps, perhaps, could be voices that need to be prayed over as they give input to my wife.

2. I was NOT aware that my behavior was considered abusive until April 20th when my wife read the letter to me. I have a joking, sarcastic sense of humor that has not been well received in the marriage from day one. She married me and chose to have two children with me.

3. Once the abusive wording was brought out I IMMEDIATELY started looking for counseling, personal. Yesterday was my first "real" session with a licensed professional. More on that below...

4. My wife admits to enabling the behavior by not addressing the issue sooner. This is her "part" in all of this. My wife is a stuffer and not the communicator that I am so things will fester for a long time before they are brought up. My therapist, from yesterday, believes she should have brought all of this up sooner, I agree. My behavior was brought up in our marriage but in "passing" and never to this degree. No excuse on my part but sometimes you don't get the message unless you are shaken. I've been shaken.

5. If my wife is shut off emotionally from me right now then I don't expect any sex from her. We are in essence separated but living together. I cannot control that end of things. I've honored and respected her space in both of those areas. Is it abusive? I don't feel that it is. These are her feelings and I have to respect those. It will be awhile before intimacy is restored.

Update:

On Tuesday I drove down near Baltimore to stay the night in a hotel to prep for my BIG 2.5 hour therapy session yesterday. This is THE appointment I was looking forward to more than anything. This is a 30 year licensed clinical therapist who knows what he is doing. I had homework to do that I had worked on for three weeks.

It was a very hard session for me personally but a much needed one on the road to personal healing for me. I learned a TON about myself, how I am wired, shaped, etc...As things began to be uncovered it was like it all just connected to where I am now. Basically, my father joked with my mom and she did not like it. I married my mom and have become my father. I made steps yesterday in counseling to break those chains. This will take some work to "rewire" me but I'm doing it and will do it.

Because my dad has never been available to me spiritually (he was also gone a lot when I was a kid due to work), I have viewed God with his arms crossed over his chest and unavailable to me. We did a powerful exercise yesterday that began a process of me seeing God as he is and not as my earthly father. This will be HUGE for me going forward.

God is not punishing me for my sins. Our marriage is where it is because of the sins we both have committed, namely me. However, God is not removing her from me or anything like that; this is not his nature or character. He hates divorce.

So, with those lies the enemy has been throwing at me out of the way I can now focus on ME and getting better, personally. My wife and kids are all wrapped up in this of course but I can only work on ME.

I came home yesterday evening and my wife asked me how my trip went and if the session was helpful; I said it was very good. I think it's a great sign that she asked me.

We have ceased marriage counseling with this couple at the local church; neither one of us felt good about them after two sessions. However, in those two sessions my wife got a lot out which I think helped her. I did mention before my visit yesterday that I would see if my therapist would have any local recommendations and she said she was fine with me exploring that option. I could tell she wasn't fully into it but I understand. When I came home yesterday I was "anxious" to let her know that I had a referral; again she wasn't fully into it and I just asked her to be honest. Bottom line is that she wants to hold off on marriage counseling while I work on more individual sessions. My takeaway from that is that she doesn't want to invest time or energy in marriage counseling until she sees REAL changes in me.

Thoughts?

Thank you for sharing so much. I just want to offer in brief more or less what I have said. I will pray for you both and for your marriage to be restored even greater than it was before.

1: If you desire counsel, I believe that both of you simply talk with an ordinary believer, and one who respects the authority of the Bible and the plain teachings about marriage.

2: It is a very modern concept to call occasional snide remarks "abusive." It is an attempt to malign and make a person sound dangerous. Those remarks may be inappropriate, but I don't see any evidence they are actually abusive. Simply talking out that she is offended by some of your language sounds much more reasonable than professional therapy, and usually with someone who does not really believe the teachings of the Bible.

3: I know you two are somewhat separate now, but I still advise to simply begin to sit down with the Bible and go over with her that these truths are the basis of marriage. Acknowledge you haven't always done right in applying them, and neither has she, but it's best to start now. Then do your best to apply what the Bible teaches. This certainly requires her cooperation, but I believe it is much better than therapists. We had almost all marriage last for life and produce children long before professional therapists existed, so remember how mighty the Lord is, and the power of thew wisdom He gives in His Word.

4: I also believe she needs to see her own sin in threatening your marriage because she is basically unhappy with your snide remarks, as well as her sin in being physically cold to you. This is pride, and you have a right to point this out to her and call her to repent before the Lord. Countless marriages have been destroyed because of the kind of behavior she is showing. Marriage is a fountain of life and a witness to Christ and the Church. She needs to see the harm she is doing.

Blessings to you.

 

[tall73]

My pastor and his wife and my associate pastor and his wife would like to meet with both of us this weekend. It's an intervention of sorts to talk and go from there.

I would hold off on promising to leave until you have that meeting. Make sure the meeting happens.

I don't see that four months of not seeing each other would build trust either.

 

[Hferry22]

Okay, here is an update....

The "plan" to speak with my wife with our pastors and their wives backfired. My pastor spoke to her on the phone and she was livid!! Here is what she said to my pastor...

She said this decision WAS going to happen; it's the best thing for the family right now; she does not want my bad example around the kids and this time of separation is a consequence to my sins. She did not ask for a divorce and is not seeking one. She needs time and space away to heal and to pray.

When I came home that evening (Friday) she was mad; I told her of my intent and that it was not to sway anything but just for us to talk. WE HAVE YET TO DISCUSS THE ISSUES IN OUR MARRIAGE AND SHE WONT' TALK TO ME PRIVATELY ABOUT THEM!!

Friday night we sat down with our 12 year old son while our 2 year old played in the room; I wanted my wife there as I spoke to him. I said, "Ethan, remember how I apologized for joking with mom and how we have talked about this on the way to school a few times? Well, I have not treated your mom the way Christ tells husbands to treat their wives. Because of my sins I will not be living here for a little while (My wife reaches over to him and says, four months). This is my fault and not your moms. Do not be mad at her. I'm very sorry that you have to suffer during this time but when I return home things will be different."

At that point I had to go upstairs to the room and cry; my wife came up and said, "I really appreciate what you said downstairs; that mean a lot to me."

I have found a place to stay after spending two nights in a hotel; a couple have allowed me to live in their basement during this season. They live in the woods, very quiet, trails to walk etc...I think this will be good for me.

I don't know how our church situation will work, if she will sit with me or not.

I pulled up to the house this morning to get my 12 year old for school. My wife "happened" to be outside cleaning the van at that time. She waved, I waved but I stayed in the car and honked for my son. Welcome to the new normal...

On Sunday I went to the church to clean (I clean PT three days a week for a few hours for extra income to pay for daycare). During this time I ran into our counseling pastor and her husband; they asked what was wrong and I broke down. We spent the next two hours in their office talking. She's very intuitive and she felt my wife's pain in a service a few weeks ago and she also felt my pain as well. They had been praying.

Finally, as I got into the car after cleaning I had turned on KLOVE radio and as soon as the car came on this message was being given and it said, "there is hope, stop trying so hard, God's got this!" That was it and then a song came on.

I believe in divine appointments like these yesterday...

 

[Hferry22]

Any thoughts or insights on the above "letter"?