statuettes.... Error?!?

[Trento]

Christians whose piety embraces such religious objects and acts need to "always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account" (1Peter 3:15). Indeed the Gilead tribes of Israel, and the altar they made (Joshua 22:9-34), serve as a model of why we need to explain the holy rather than blasphemous meaning of our unique devotions. And by doing this, we also educate ourselves against succumbing to idolatry - as unfortunately the Hebrews eventually did with the gold serpent Moses made (2Kings 18:4). So for example, if incense were burned before an image of Jesus, it must not be done to please the image since that would simply be idolatry. Rather, such incense should represent prayer lifted to Jesus: "accept my prayer as incense offered to you, and my upraised hands as an evening offering" (Psalm 141:2). Likewise, if someone chooses to bow to a bishop of the Church, it must be out of respect (Genesis 23:7, 1Kings 1:31, 1Tim 5:17) rather than for worship (Acts 10:25-26). If we have or wear a crucifex, it is because "we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles" (1Cor 1:23). If we bow to an image of God to glorify His presence, we thereby mimick the veneration of the temple (Psalm 138:2, Leviticus 19:30). If we bow to an image of a saint, we show God's will to give "glory and honor for every one who does good" (Romans 2:10). If we wear a scapular in response to the promise "he who dies in this will not suffer eternal fire," we must understand our scapular as a mnemonic for faith in Christ. And even though relics of a saint may have miraculous power, such as the bones of Elisha (2Kings 13:20-21), we must understand and profess that such power ultimately comes from God.

However, since "not all possess this knowledge," it can "defile the conscience" (1Corinthians 8:7) of weaker saints to see such use of bowing or images "since Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath" (Act 15:21). And so we must "only take care lest this liberty somehow become a stumbling block to the weak" (1Cor 8:9, Rom 14). For if saints of weaker conscience see us venerating an image, they might be encouraged to become idolaters.

1Cor 8: ​

11 And so by your knowledge this weak man is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died. ​

12 Thus, sinning against your brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. ​

Therefore, if images and veneration tempts the fall of our brethren, we should make pains to seperate them from such piety (1Tim 4:8) until they are educated of Christ's liberty - lest we cause them to fall. Whatever the case, we glorify God when we respect fellow Christians who themselves do not accept such devotions (Romans 14:1-10, Phillipians 2:3).

However, we must also be mindful of "of false brethren secretly brought in, who slipped in to spy out our freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage [of the law]" (Galations 2:4). More specifically, "to the pure all things are pure, but to the corrupt and unbelieving nothing is pure; their very minds and consciences are corrupted" (Titus 1:15). Such self-righteousness judges (Romans 2:1, Luke 18:9-14) "accuse us saints day and night" (Revelation 12:10) of idolatry and blasphemy. In short they "desire to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make assertions" (1st Timothy 1:5-7). We need not fear such accusations and assertions:

Romans 8:​

15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, "Abba! Father!" ​

16 it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God​

Indeed, armed with right knowledge in the use of these devotions (Hosea 4:6), we glorify God and show forth His freedom. "Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom" (2Corinthians 3:17).
B.Arias

 

[Rhamiel]

Tyndale posted
"11:13/14 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."
Ok how about Job 28, just for fun, I really like this part of the book of Job
1 "There is a mine for silver
and a place where gold is refined.

2 Iron is taken from the earth,
and copper is smelted from ore.
3 Man puts an end to the darkness;
he searches the farthest recesses
for ore in the blackest darkness.
4 Far from where people dwell he cuts a shaft,
in places forgotten by the foot of man;
far from men he dangles and sways.
5 The earth, from which food comes,
is transformed below as by fire;
6 sapphires [a] come from its rocks,
and its dust contains nuggets of gold.
7 No bird of prey knows that hidden path,
no falcon's eye has seen it.
8 Proud beasts do not set foot on it,
and no lion prowls there.
9 Man's hand assaults the flinty rock
and lays bare the roots of the mountains.
10 He tunnels through the rock;
his eyes see all its treasures.
11 He searches [b] the sources of the rivers
and brings hidden things to light.
12 "But where can wisdom be found?
Where does understanding dwell?
13 Man does not comprehend its worth;
it cannot be found in the land of the living.
14 The deep says, 'It is not in me';
the sea says, 'It is not with me.'
15 It cannot be bought with the finest gold,
nor can its price be weighed in silver.
16 It cannot be bought with the gold of Ophir,
with precious onyx or sapphires.
17 Neither gold nor crystal can compare with it,
nor can it be had for jewels of gold.
18 Coral and jasper are not worthy of mention;
the price of wisdom is beyond rubies.
19 The topaz of Cush cannot compare with it;
it cannot be bought with pure gold.
20 "Where then does wisdom come from?
Where does understanding dwell?
21 It is hidden from the eyes of every living thing,
concealed even from the birds of the air.
22 Destruction [c] and Death say,
'Only a rumor of it has reached our ears.'
23 God understands the way to it
and he alone knows where it dwells,
24 for he views the ends of the earth
and sees everything under the heavens.
25 When he established the force of the wind
and measured out the waters,
26 when he made a decree for the rain
and a path for the thunderstorm,
27 then he looked at wisdom and appraised it;
he confirmed it and tested it. 28 And he said to man,
'The fear of the Lord—that is wisdom,
and to shun evil is understanding.' "
I really like the part about wisdom

 

[sunlover1]

'The fear of the Lord—that is wisdom,
and to shun evil is understanding.' "
I really like the part about wisdom

A favorite part of Job, for me, is when Elihu gets up and gives those older guys a piece of his mind. You might want to check it out. It starts here:

Job 32:5-8
5 When Elihu saw that there was no answer in the mouth of these three men, then his wrath was kindled.
6 And Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite answered and said, I am young, and ye are very old; wherefore I was afraid, and durst not shew you mine opinion. {young: Heb. few of days} {durst...: Heb. feared}
7 I said, Days should speak, and multitude of years should teach wisdom.
8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

But I don't see how Job has to do with statues.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Again, nothing about free standing statues in the commandment of God . ..

grasping Gwen . .. grasping . . .





So, you are saying that the Jews did not reverence the Ark?

The purpose of the Temple was to honor and reverence the Ark for David grieved that he lived in a splendid house and the Ark was in a tent:

1Ch 17:1 Now it came to pass, as David sat in his house, that David said to Nathan the prophet, Lo, I dwell in an house of cedars, but the ark of the covenant of the LORD remaineth under curtains.

1Ch 28:2 Then David the king stood up upon his feet, and said, Hear me, my brethren, and my people: As for me, I had in mine heart to build an house of rest for the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and for the footstool of our God, and had made ready for the building:​

But once again, you are missing the point of my argument . . . . God did not say we could have no images . . . God said we could have no images that we worshipped as gods.

Unless you are going to say that Christians who engage in the use of religious images believe those images are themselves gods, then you will have to admit that the use of religious images is not prohibited by scripture, and in fact is approved and hallowed by God Himself.

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You are right TLF, there were very many images of various sorts in and around the temple.

We do not, however, have any record of anyone praying in front of them to reach whatever the image represented.

I think, mostly, is that the objection lies in the praying to a dead person, (although alive, truly alive....) moreso than the statue. For it to be truly idolatry, you would have to put it before God.

I've looked at the biblical records, and find no instances where anyone prayed to a "dearly departed."

OK . . I have to ask you a question . . earlier you were adamant about wanting this to remain focused on images . . .

Now you want to take the topic of this thread off of images to discuss the Catholic doctrines of Communion of Saints and Intercession of the Saints?





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[Uphill Battle]

OK . . I have to ask you a question . . earlier you were adamant about wanting this to remain focused on images . . .

Now you want to take the topic of this thread off of images to discuss the Catholic doctrines of Communion of Saints and Intercession of the Saints?





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I'm trying to HELP you here. Insomuch that there is nothing specifically wrong with statues, and tried to offer an explaination to the often kneejerk reaction protestants have over statues.


The "Catholic doctrines of Communion of Saints and Intercession of the Saints"

is the underlying reason there is any objection whatsoever.

Personally, I'd love to see a hall of statues that depicted all the biblical characters of note, it would be cool to look at them, think about what impact they had on human history.

I wouldn't be TALKING to them though.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Well no one is under obligation to answer a particular question just because it's asked. And before you make that claim, I'd try it out if I were you. Visit a Messianic Synagogue for yourself and you'll see a depth of information you haven't experienced before. I myself learned more in 2 years than I had in my entire life of going to church. So, why not visit one for yourself? That is if you're not afraid ...

RFLOL!

Elsa . . what makes you think I haven't?

Why are people so quick to think they know all sorts of things about me . ...

May I suggest we stop talking about me and return to the subject of the thread, OK?

.

 

[Rhamiel]

"But I don't see how Job has to do with statues."
A lot of Bible verses are being thrown around without any comentary how they relevant to the topic at hand, as long as they are doing that I thought I would add my favorite chapter in Job, a very good book everyone should read, not that long either. But sunlover is right, that part is also very good. It really gets exciting when God shows up.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I'm trying to HELP you here. Insomuch that there is nothing specifically wrong with statues, and tried to offer an explaination to the often kneejerk reaction protestants have over statues.


The "Catholic doctrines of Communion of Saints and Intercession of the Saints"

is the underlying reason there is any objection whatsoever.

UP, that is simply not true. I have been involved in discussions about the use of images by Catholics as both a protestant and a Catholic. . . . I can tell you that simply is not true. There is no "one size fits all" in protestantism.

There are those, as we have seen in this thread, for whom the use of any images is forbidden, even a picture of Jesus.

Then there are those who are uncomfortable with any religious images, but who tolerate them off in a corner somewhere ..

Then there are those who have no problem with images at all, but who take issue with their religious use by Catholics and Orthodox (when they know about Orthodoxy).

Personally, I'd love to see a hall of statues that depicted all the biblical characters of note, it would be cool to look at them, think about what impact they had on human history.

I wouldn't be TALKING to them though.

And you wouldn't be talking to whom they represent either . . . so of course you wouldn't be talking to them.

Your OP had to do with statues themselves. . . . you have a lot of people in this thread who seem to think that the statues themelves are wrong . . .


.

 

[thereselittleflower]

UB .. remember, we are commanded to give honor to whom honor is due . . .

God has honored the saints in heaven with crowns of glory and rewards.

Should we not also honor them?


.

 

[thereselittleflower]

except that if people decided to start debating, as they are now, the thread would be closed.

No, debate is allowed in the subform . . why do you think it isn't?


.

 

[Uphill Battle]

UB .. remember, we are commanded to give honor to whom honor is due . . .

God has honored the saints in heaven with crowns of glory and rewards.

Should we not also honor them?


.

Sure, go ahead. Honour them. I still don't make the connection between honouring someone, and talking to them after they have died and gone to heaven.

UP, that is simply not true. I have been involved in discussions about the use of images by Catholics as both a protestant and a Catholic. . . . I can tell you that simply is not true. There is no "one size fits all" in protestantism.

There are those, as we have seen in this thread, for whom the use of any images is forbidden, even a picture of Jesus.

Then there are those who are uncomfortable with any religious images, but who tolerate them off in a corner somewhere ..

Then there are those who have no problem with images at all, but who take issue with their religious use by Catholics and Orthodox (when they know about Orthodoxy).



Your OP had to do with statues themselves. . . . you have a lot of people in this thread who seem to think that the statues themelves are wrong . . .


.

no, statues are not wrong in and of themselves. and I know that not all protestants have problems with statues, I am adressing the ones who DO... and it's basis.

not sure what you mean by

And you wouldn't be talking to whom they represent either . . . so of course you wouldn't be talking to them.

No, debate is allowed in the subform . . why do you think it isn't?


.

I find that it is less restrictive here. Besides that, I don't like to have any issue restricted to one subset of people, it's kind of one sided.

 

[IamAdopted]

I do not myself have a problem with having a statue.. I do though have a problem with people talking to them. Bowing to them. Kissing their feet. Dressing them up. Carrying them around the streets as if they are to be something to admire.. This is where I have a problem..

 

[FrauleinElsa]

Uh ... Just why do you think we bow to and venerate Saints ?



There are Jewish synagogues with icons in them of Biblical characters and scecnes.

I never saw that, and that was not my experience while attending one. The only thing is the Messianic Synagogue I attended had a large cross in the sanctuary. It was a plain, wooden unadorned cross.

 

[thereselittleflower]

If your relative tells you and we all here tell you and every where else you go tells the same thing, that we honor what the images represent and we bow to God's glory and presence in Church, then why are you disbelieving us?
That's what I can not understand, why you all are disbelieving us? ​

prolly for the same reasons you don't believe us about sola scripture...

So . . . . . are you saying we are lying to you?

Disbelief

Syn. -- Distrust; unbelief; incredulity; doubt; skepticism. -- Disbelief, Unbelief. Unbelief is a mere failure to admit; disbelief is a positive rejection. ....... Unbelief is usually open to conviction; disbelief is already convinced as to the falsity of that which it rejects

http://freefactfinder.com/definition.jsp?search=disbelief​

So there we have it in a nut shell . . others know better than we do why we use religious images . . . .




.

.

 

[FrauleinElsa]

I've yet to visit a synagogue which has statues...murials and mosaics, etchings yes...statues not that I've seen...

I never have either.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Sure, go ahead. Honour them. I still don't make the connection between honouring someone, and talking to them after they have died and gone to heaven.

How do you honor someone without communicating that honor to them?

no, statues are not wrong in and of themselves. and I know that not all protestants have problems with statues, I am adressing the ones who DO... and it's basis.

not sure what you mean by

Originally Posted by TLF
And you wouldn't be talking to whom they represent either . . . so of course you wouldn't be talking to them.​

Do you talk to the saints in heaven?

I don't think you do . . so, based on that, I made the observation that you would not be talking "to" the images that represent them. . . .

Sorry for the confusion .. .

I find that it is less restrictive here. Besides that, I don't like to have any issue restricted to one subset of people, it's kind of one sided.

Well, if one wants answers then it is best to restrict who participates, otherwise, you end up with a thread like this . . .


.

 

[thereselittleflower]

If we really did worship wood, paint and stone (or the prototypes depicted), why would we deny it ? It's not like iconoclasts are God's policemen who will arrest us and we will go to jail

This is why it is so offensive, first we are accused of something we do not do, and then on top of that we are implicitly made out to be liars.

EXACTLY! As we have seeen in this thread . . .


.

 

[Uphill Battle]

How do you honor someone without communicating that honor to them?



Do you talk to the saints in heaven?

I don't think you do . . so, based on that, I made the observation that you would not be talking "to" the images that represent them. . . .

Sorry for the confusion .. .



Well, if one wants answers then it is best to restrict who participates, otherwise, you end up with a thread like this . . .


.

do you think you need to talk to someone to honour them? Explain why? that's a foreign thought to me.

For instance, in marriage, I HONOUR my wife by not looking at another woman. Do I tell her "Hey, guess what, I saw a pretty lady today, but didn't look at her!

no.

I honour my parents by not disrespecting them. Do I say, hey, Mom... I've been respectful to you today! I'm honouring you!

no.

Just my take.

No, I do not speak with departed saints, I don't believe that it is even possible.
thanks for clarifying.

Ah, opposing viewpoints don't bother me at all. I just don't like sniping.

 

[FrauleinElsa]

For the record, and this is for all of the Catholics out there, I don't care if you use statues. I mean that in nicest way possible. I mean, I don't agree with them, but really it's none of my business. It's between you and God. So, what I'm trying to say is you have one less Protestant trying to change your mind about them. It's not my thing, but then again what business is it of mine anyway? I just want to agree to disagree and live and let live. Sorry for the tired cliches but they fit for this situation.

 

[thereselittleflower]

“They don't want peace..they want to be right and rude. And people wonder why I don't want anything to do with their believes”
This page got rough, people said remarks like “I can not agree with anything that put angels or saints above God” and things to the effect of the Catholic Church is going to abandon God altogether. This started off as to why this one little store had some funny statues, it got turned into a iconoclast war, and it was not the Catholics who steered the conversation away from the original purpose. People are saying we do not really worship God and we are called rude when we defend ourselves.
The statues in church are devotional tools to draw our minds to Christ or to meditate on the lives of the saints, if the next thing you have to say is “well I use the Bible” you can just not say it because ALL CHRISTIANS USE THE BIBLE, I know you use the Bible, I use the Bible. The Catholics and the Orthodox really are Bible believing Christians and to say a thing like “well you use statues and I use the Bible” is a false comparison. I better comparison would be “you use statues and I use a plain cross or nails” or whatever you use to help you focus on God when your not using the Bible. I am glad how only a few people got upset over the Peter=Jupiter thing but when someone says something “rude” there are always enough people to correct error. I for one am really mad right now, and I am not ashamed of it at all, ridicules claims have been taken seriously and treated like a valid reason for concern. It is a sad thing that I have to respond to something as silly as Peter=Jupiter, it is personally demeaning, but such a bold face lie can not go unchallenged.

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