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statuettes.... Error?!?

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Gwenyfur

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Ummm . . Gwen, you just demonstrated you don't know much about the Temple of Solomon . if you had taken time to read through this thread, you would have seen that there were many more images in Solomon's temple than you have said above. .

The walls were covered with what you call "graven" images . . . of plants and birds, etc . .

What about the bull?

What about the angels whose wings stretched across the holy place from wall to wall and floor to ceiling?

Are you not aware that this is all described in scripture?


The Temple was FULL of images . .


I am sorry you are not as well informed about the ancient Jewish faith as you obviously believe yourself to be . . . .




.
they were etched into the walls...
not free standing images TLF...

again...a big difference from a statue to a carving in a wall...

...
 
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thereselittleflower

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Regarding Solomon's Temple:

In front of the Temple stood a great sacrificial altar and the Sea, a gigantic bronze basin supported by twelve bronze oxen.On either side of the platform were five much smaller basins set in wheeled stands, also of bronze. Nehushtan, the bronze seraph, or winged cobra, said to have been fashioned by Moses, was displayed here on a standard.

...A doorway led from the portico into the main room, some seventy feet long. Clerestory windows just below the coffered ceiling admitted light. Palmettes, stylized palm trees, decorated the cedar-paneled walls, along with rosettes and colocynths (wild gourds). Carved sphinxes, the cherubim, protected the holy space. The walls and floor were covered in gold leaf. Here stood an incense altar, ten lamp stands and a table, all of gold.

Seraphim kept watch above the doors into the Holy of Holies. Two huge cherubim stood inside, each more than seventeen feet tall and with outstretched wings that spanned the width of the room.


http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~semitic/HOAI/adultmain.cgi?article=temple.htm

Possible artifact from Solomon's temple of a "graven" image of things on the earth (picture at site):
IVORY POMEGRANATE

This thumb-sized pomegranate is believed to be the only known relic from Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem. Around the shoulder of the pomegranate is a carefully incised inscription in early Hebrew characters, part of which is broken off, which reads: "qodes kohanim I-beyt [yahwe]h". "Sacred donation for the priests of (in) the House of [Yahwe]h." "House of Yahweh" most probably refers to the Temple in Jerusalem.
It was a favorite motif in the Temple of Solomon, and decorated the capitals of the two freestanding columns at the entrance to the Temple (1 Kings 7:21).

http://judicial-inc.biz/Solomon_temple.htm



From scripture:


2 Chronicles 3
5 And the greater house he cieled with fir tree, which he overlaid with fine gold, and set thereon palm trees and chains.

7 He overlaid also the house, the beams, the posts, and the walls thereof, and the doors thereof, with gold; and graved cherubim on the walls.

10 And in the most holy house he made two cherubim of image work, and overlaid them with gold.

11 11 And the wings of the cherubim were twenty cubits long: one wing of the one cherub was five cubits, reaching to the wall of the house: and the other wing was likewise five cubits, reaching to the wing of the other cherub.
12 And one wing of the other cherub was five cubits, reaching to the wall of the house: and the other wing was five cubits also, joining to the wing of the other cherub.
13 The wings of these cherubim spread themselves forth twenty cubits: and they stood on their feet, and their faces were inward.


14
And he made the vail of blue, and purple, and crimson, and fine linen, and wrought cherubim thereon

16 And he made chains, as in the oracle, and put them on the heads of the pillars; and made an hundred pomegranates, and put them on the chains.

2 Chronicles 4
1 Moreover he made an altar of brass, twenty cubits the length thereof, and twenty cubits the breadth thereof, and ten cubits the height thereof.
2 Also he made a molten sea of ten cubits from brim to brim, round in compass, and five cubits the height thereof; and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.
3 And under it was the similitude of oxen, which did compass it round about: ten in a cubit, compassing the sea round about. Two rows of oxen were cast, when it was cast.
4 It stood upon twelve oxen, three looking toward the north, and three looking toward the west, and three looking toward the south, and three looking toward the east: and the sea was set above upon them, and all their hinder parts were inward.
5 And the thickness of it was an handbreadth, and the brim of it like the work of the brim of a cup, with flowers of lilies; and it received and held three thousand baths.
6 He made also ten lavers, and put five on the right hand, and five on the left, to wash in them: such things as they offered for the burnt offering they washed in them; but the sea was for the priests to wash in.
7 And he made ten candlesticks of gold according to their form, and set them in the temple, five on the right hand, and five on the left.
8 He made also ten tables, and placed them in the temple, five on the right side, and five on the left. And he made an hundred basins of gold.
9 Furthermore he made the court of the priests, and the great court, and doors for the court, and overlaid the doors of them with brass.
10 And he set the sea on the right side of the east end, over against the south.
11 And Huram made the pots, and the shovels, and the basins. And Huram finished the work that he was to make for king Solomon for the house of God;
12 To wit, the two pillars, and the pommels, and the chapiters which were on the top of the two pillars, and the two wreaths to cover the two pommels of the chapiters which were on the top of the pillars;
13 And four hundred pomegranates on the two wreaths; two rows of pomegranates on each wreath, to cover the two pommels of the chapiters which were upon the pillars.
14 He made also bases, and lavers made he upon the bases;
15 One sea, and twelve oxen under it.
16 The pots also, and the shovels, and the fleshhooks, and all their instruments, did Huram his father make to king Solomon for the house of the LORD of bright brass.
17 In the plain of Jordan did the king cast them, in the clay ground between Succoth and Zeredathah.
18 Thus Solomon made all these vessels in great abundance: for the weight of the brass could not be found out.
19 And Solomon made all the vessels that were for the house of God, the golden altar also, and the tables whereon the shewbread was set;
20 Moreover the candlesticks with their lamps, that they should burn after the manner before the oracle, of pure gold;
21 And the flowers,
and the lamps, and the tongs, made he of gold, and that perfect gold;
22 And the snuffers, and the basins, and the spoons, and the censers, of pure gold: and the entry of the house, the inner doors thereof for the most holy place, and the doors of the house of the temple, were of gold.


2 Chronicles 5

And the priests brought in the ark of the covenant of the LORD unto his place, to the oracle of the house, into the most holy place, even under the wings of the cherubim:
8 For the cherubim spread forth their wings over the place of the ark, and the cherubim covered the ark and the staves thereof above.


13 It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of music, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD;
14 So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God.



So . . back to my questions to Gwen . ..


Gwen why did God's glory descend on a temple full of images?

Why did God hallow a temple full of images?

Why did God choose for Himself a temple full of images?




.
 
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thereselittleflower

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they were etched into the walls...
not free standing images TLF...

again...a big difference from a statue to a carving in a wall...

...

Please see above . . .please note the reference to "graved images" in the scripture passage .. . . Please note the statues that were used in temple worship . . .

I am sorry you are not as well informed on ancient Hebrew Temple worship as you imagined.


.
 
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thereselittleflower

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Ummm...Gwen's Messianic. I attended a Messianic Synagogue for 2 years and if there's one thing I came away with it's this: they know their stuff. Seriously. You learn things there you wouldn't anywhere else.

It doesn't mean anything that one is a Messianic Jew, as we have seen demonstrated in this thread. just because one indentifies themselves as messianic jew, that doesn't mean that they know everything they think they know . . .


.
 
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Gwenyfur

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the bulls were outside the temple itself leading up to the entrance...

in all honesty...I forgot about the seraphim...Though not once do you read that the priests stopped and prayed to those statues ;) Or even gave them reverence...they were ornamentation for the most High G-d.

as for the rest...the ornamental walls..were just that...etchings and overlays of carvings in the walls themselves...not free standing statues...

how else do you make etchings? you carve them of course...

I've heard rumors of hte pomegranate...but it's a theory of the origins of it...never concretly proven... and again...they were attached to chains and hung from the tops of the pillars....not free standing *statues* to which the priests paid reverence...

You don't read it, because they didn't do it.
Not once would a Jew genuflect, pray, bow or otherwise reverence a man carved work of art if he loved the Most High G-d...
 
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Gwenyfur

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It doesn't mean anything that one is a Messianic Jew, as we have seen demonstrated in this thread. just because one indentifies themselves as messianic jew, that doesn't mean that they know everything they think they know . . .


.

The same can be said of everyone at any given time of the day or night dear...
 
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FrauleinElsa

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It doesn't mean anything that one is a Messianic Jew, as we have seen demonstrated in this thread. just because one indentifies themselves as messianic jew, that doesn't mean that they know everything they think they know.


Well no one is under obligation to answer a particular question just because it's asked. And before you make that claim, I'd try it out if I were you. Visit a Messianic Synagogue for yourself and you'll see a depth of information you haven't experienced before. I myself learned more in 2 years than I had in my entire life of going to church. So, why not visit one for yourself? That is if you're not afraid:p ...
 
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Dragons87

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Images and artwork in the Temple...hm...interesting..

Did they have statues of Moses? Joshua? Maybe Abraham too?

Thank you TFL for saying that God loves good art. But statues of human beings?

There's nothing wrong with having statues of human beings for commemoration, but their use to aid worship...hm...still uncomfortable with the idea.

I'm even going to suggest that the widespread use of statues in the Catholic Church comes from Greco-Roman influence instead of Old Testament influence. Remember the Greeks and the Romans were infatuated with making statues.
 
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Oblio

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they bowed to G-d who's glory resided *in* the temple...

Uh ... Just why do you think we bow to and venerate Saints ?

Images and artwork in the Temple...hm...interesting..

Did they have statues of Moses? Joshua? Maybe Abraham too?

Thank you TFL for saying that God loves good art. But statues of human beings?

There's nothing wrong with having statues of human beings for commemoration, but their use to aid worship...hm...still uncomfortable with the idea.

There are Jewish synagogues with icons in them of Biblical characters and scecnes.
 
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Benedicta00

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All of you need to stop!

This thread had nothing to do with statues being used in prayer, or in the church.

My OP was about erroneous images specific to some statuettes I saw. Not a broad sweeping condemnation of statues!

For heavens sake, there are statues of war heros, why not of dead saints? Statues of presidents, why not of dead saints?

Seriously.

I know that many of my fellow protestants take a dim view on "graven images" but the RCC and EO are correct.... They would have to be worshipped as Gods to be idols.

The practice of praying to saints is erroneous, in my own opinion, but that has nothing to do with the statues either.

Can we PLEASE drop the sniping and get back on topic!

BTW, the Peter Jupiter thing............. yikes. even if they DO have some similarities, it would have far more to do with the hellenistic style of carving, than with intended similarity. That one's crazy!
Then you should have opened this else where like we said in the beginning.
 
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Oblio

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Dura Europas Synagogue

ei0604s.jpg


Samuel Annoints David

More images from Yale Divinity School
 
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Gwenyfur

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Uh ... Just why do you think we bow to and venerate Saints ?

I haven't figured that out...it's actually an ongoing debate between my brother in law (he's an RCC priest) and myself ... They were godly people, yes...worth bowing and kneeling before...no...they were sinners saved by Messiah just as the rest of believers are...


There are Jewish synagogues with icons in them of Biblical characters and scecnes.

I've yet to visit a synagogue which has statues...murials and mosaics, etchings yes...statues not that I've seen...
 
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Oblio

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I haven't figured that out...it's actually an ongoing debate between my brother in law (he's an RCC priest) and myself ...

Well let me tell you why we do :)

It is precisely for the same reason that one bowed before the Temple, because God dwells in that temple. We venerate the prototype depicted in the Icon because they are made in the image of God, and His spirit resides in them. It is God we honor when we reverence a Saint, or when a priest censes the congregation, or when we prostrate ourselves in front of another Christian and ask for forgiveness, for God is with us and in us.
 
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Gwenyfur

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That's pretty much what my brother in law tells me...
and part of me can see and kindof accept that...

but then there's the other part...

the person does not reside in that statue...and neither does the Ruach haKodesh, or Spirit of G-d. That saint is dead, and that statue is an empty shell of a likeness...

I'm really not trying to be critical Oblio...you should prolly know me enough by now to understand that (I hope)... but that's where I get hung up on the bowing, kissing of statues feet, kneeling etc...
 
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Oblio

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the person does not reside in that statue...and neither does the Ruach haKodesh, or Spirit of G-d. That saint is dead, and that statue is an empty shell of a likeness...

That is why I specified the prototype :) Just like the picture of a loved one is not them, nor do we love the picture of paper and silver nitrate, neither do we love or honor the icon made of wood and paint, but rather the prototype depicted therein.
 
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Oblio

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IOW, when I kiss the feet of Christ in an Icon, I am kissing Christ's feet and worshipping Him, not the wood and paint.

Similarily when I read the Epistles aloud in church the words on the page are just ink stains on wood fiber and not the actual word of God. But I honor those words (of God) by how I hold the book and read the words.
 
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Gwenyfur

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I'm gonna mull that one over a bit if that's okay with you...tryand wrap my brain around it...part of it makes sense, part of it is still........off? for lack of a better word atm...

and since I've just been smacked in the face by another believer...(not you Oblio) I'm getting some coffee, and some fresh air on the deck...
 
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