statuettes.... Error?!?

[HisBelovedMelody]

I'm gonna mull that one over a bit if that's okay with you...tryand wrap my brain around it...part of it makes sense, part of it is still........off? for lack of a better word atm...

and since I've just been smacked in the face by another believer...(not you Oblio) I'm getting some coffee, and some fresh air on the deck...

I am sorry that happened. I thought it rude and un called for. (((hugs))) Some can't agree to disagree. I put my hand out in peace yesterday SEVERAL pages ago, and ONE person accepted it...accpeted the agree to disagree. I find that VERY telling of others. They don't want peace..they want to be right and rude. And people wonder why I don't want anything to do with their believes.

 

[Benedicta00]

they were etched into the walls...
not free standing images TLF...

again...a big difference from a statue to a carving in a wall...

...

and what would that difference be?

 

[Benedicta00]

I haven't figured that out...it's actually an ongoing debate between my brother in law (he's an RCC priest) and myself ... They were godly people, yes...worth bowing and kneeling before...no...they were sinners saved by Messiah just as the rest of believers are...

So why is it even up to you to figure it out?


If your relative tells you and we all here tell you and every where else you go tells the same thing, that we honor what the images represent and we bow to God's glory and presence in Church, then why are you disbelieving us?

That's what I can not understand, why you all are disbelieving us?

 

[Gwenyfur]

prolly for the same reasons you don't believe us about sola scripture...

remember oral tradition lead to the Talmud...which Y'shua condemned the Pharisees for ...

with that I bid you adieu on this thread...

Oblio...if I may continue with you in PM...you are patient and kind

 

[Tyndale]

I think we all need a re-cap


1 Cor 3 v 16: "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"


Acts 17 v 24/25: "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;"

 

[Benedicta00]

I am sorry that happened. I thought it rude and un called for. (((hugs))) Some can't agree to disagree. I put my hand out in peace yesterday SEVERAL pages ago, and ONE person accepted it...accpeted the agree to disagree. I find that VERY telling of others. They don't want peace..they want to be right and rude. And people wonder why I don't want anything to do with their believes.

What are we agreeing to disagree about? that you think we worship statutes?

I'm not going to agree to disagree. I'm going to tell you that is not what we do, so why don't you just believe us when we say it?

You can disagree with the practice, I don't have a problem with anyone disagreeing with the practice but I will not allow anyone to tell me we are worshipping the statue.

And that is pretty much what every one in this thread has done. So if you want to be peaceful and fair, then believe us when we say God is our God and the statues are images of people who are dear to us. Not too different form photographs you hang on your wall at home of people you love.

If you believe that genuflecting to them is wrong, I respect your opinion. But let's be clear, I do not respect any one's opinion that claims when we genuflect we are worshipping the saint or the plaster.

And I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet but it's not a rule that we have to genuflect before a statue, it's our prerogative if we want to.

 

[Oblio]

Oblio...if I may continue with you in PM...you are patient and kind

Of course, but I am about to head for work, and realize that I'll need to find your PMs amongst all the 'other' mail we get

 

[Benedicta00]

prolly for the same reasons you don't believe us about sola scripture...

remember oral tradition lead to the Talmud...which Y'shua condemned the Pharisees for ...

with that I bid you adieu on this thread...

Oblio...if I may continue with you in PM...you are patient and kind

What do you want me to believe you do with sola scripture? Not worship it? Okay, I believe you, never thought you ever did in the first place.

 

[rosiecotton]

What are we agreeing to disagree about? that you think we worship statutes?

I'm not going to agree to disagree. I'm going to tell you that is not what we do, so why don't you just believe us when we say it?

You can disagree with the practice, I don't have a problem with anyone disagreeing with the practice but I will not allow anyone to tell me we are worshipping the statue.

And that is pretty much what every one in this thread has done. So if you want to be peaceful and fair, then believe us when we say God is our God and the statues are images of people who are dear to us. Not too different form photographs you hang on your wall at home of people you love.

If you believe that genuflecting to them is wrong, I respect your opinion. But let's be clear, I do not respect any one's opinion that claims when we genuflect we are worshipping the saint or the plaster.

And I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet but it's not a rule that we have to genuflect before a statue, it's our prerogative if we want to.

This is what I posted awhile back...why can't we believe Catholics when they say they don't worship statues, or saints or Mary? Ok, to many it may look that way, simply because we do not practice this.
But we do NOT know the hearts of people who do this. We do NOT know exactly why they are doing this. The Catholic posters on this board have stated over and over they do not worship these statues or the people they represent. So, why do we continue arguing that they are?
I can understand why some of the posters have gotten upset and may come across as angry. They probably get tired of being told over and over that what they are doing is wrong. They are tired of being misunderstood when they have tried to explain over and over.
Maybe we all need to try to look at things from the other persons perspective before posting?

 

[Rhamiel]

“They don't want peace..they want to be right and rude. And people wonder why I don't want anything to do with their believes”
This page got rough, people said remarks like “I can not agree with anything that put angels or saints above God” and things to the effect of the Catholic Church is going to abandon God altogether. This started off as to why this one little store had some funny statues, it got turned into a iconoclast war, and it was not the Catholics who steered the conversation away from the original purpose. People are saying we do not really worship God and we are called rude when we defend ourselves.
The statues in church are devotional tools to draw our minds to Christ or to meditate on the lives of the saints, if the next thing you have to say is “well I use the Bible” you can just not say it because ALL CHRISTIANS USE THE BIBLE, I know you use the Bible, I use the Bible. The Catholics and the Orthodox really are Bible believing Christians and to say a thing like “well you use statues and I use the Bible” is a false comparison. I better comparison would be “you use statues and I use a plain cross or nails” or whatever you use to help you focus on God when your not using the Bible. I am glad how only a few people got upset over the Peter=Jupiter thing but when someone says something “rude” there are always enough people to correct error. I for one am really mad right now, and I am not ashamed of it at all, ridicules claims have been taken seriously and treated like a valid reason for concern. It is a sad thing that I have to respond to something as silly as Peter=Jupiter, it is personally demeaning, but such a bold face lie can not go unchallenged.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Leviticus 26:1 `Ye do not make to yourselves idols; and graven image or standing image ye do not set up to yourselves; and a stone of imagery ye do not put in your land, to bow yourselves to it; for I [am] Jehovah your God.

Originally Posted by thereselittleflower The brazen serpent was one of the images in the Temple God so honored with His glory and Hallowed for Himself . . . and we see that the Jews venerated/reverenced and bowed down towards the temple which included all that was in it ..

they didn't bow *to* the Temple....

they bowed to G-d who's glory resided *in* the temple...

HUGE difference

...................prolly for the same reasons you don't believe us about sola scripture...

remember oral tradition lead to the Talmud...which Y'shua condemned the Pharisees for ...[/

Hi Gwen. Haven't the Jews also made replicas of the furnishings that were in the Santuary/Holy place/Most Holy Place?
Are any of those in Jewish synagouges? Thanks and peace.

Reve 15:8 and filled was the sanctuary with smoke from the glory of God, and from His power, and no one was able to enter into the sanctuary till the seven stripes of the seven messengers may be finished.

http://www.nsbible.org/sits_ts/v0s1.htm

The Camp--The Court--The Tabernacle--The Brazen Altar--The Laver-- The Table--The Lampstand--The Golden Altar--The Mercy Seat and Ark--The Gate--The First Veil--The Second Veil--The Significance of These and Their Antitypes.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Catholics and the Orthodox really are Bible believing Christians and to say a thing like “well you use statues and I use the Bible” is a false comparison.

Of you and I are!!! Btw, I use this verse with the Muslims a lot concerning Muhammad LOL.

2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or [if] you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted -- you may well put up with it!

 

[Oblio]

If we really did worship wood, paint and stone (or the prototypes depicted), why would we deny it ? It's not like iconoclasts are God's policemen who will arrest us and we will go to jail

This is why it is so offensive, first we are accused of something we do not do, and then on top of that we are implicitly made out to be liars.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Then you should have opened this else where like we said in the beginning.

you would presume to blame me for the thread derailment? I gave a reason why I wouldn't post this in OBOB.

 

[Tyndale]

Of you and I are!!! Btw, I use this verse with the Muslims a lot concerning Muhammad LOL.

2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or [if] you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted -- you may well put up with it!

11:13/14 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

 

[thereselittleflower]

the bulls were outside the temple itself leading up to the entrance...

They were outside the Holy Place . .. but that matters how exactly? The Temple consisted of the courts, the Holy Place and the Holy of Holies. This argument is nothing more than the semmatical splitting of hairs.

Now you are grasping at straws . .were they or were they not images?

Does the commandement of God apply only to images one finds inside the Holy Place?

I didn't think so . .. . .

and what about those towering angels whose wings streched all the way across the room?

In all honesty...I forgot about the seraphim...Though not once do you read that the priests stopped and prayed to those statues Or even gave them reverence...they were ornamentation for the most High G-d.

The point is the are images, right?

When one bowed towards the temple one was bowing towards all that was in the Temple too, which obviously included these images, right?

And you forgot about the oxen, and the flowers, and etc . . .

as for the rest...the ornamental walls..were just that...etchings and overlays of carvings in the walls themselves...not free standing statues...

Where is "free standing statues" in the commandment of God under discussion?

You are grasping at straws Gwen . . .

"graven image"

H6459
פּסל
pesel
peh'-sel
From H6458; an idol: - carved (graven) image.​

how else do you make etchings? you carve them of course...

Where is "etching" in any of those scripures?

What is a chain? What is a wreath?

What does the word "carved" mean?

Look at the definition above of pesel again . . "carved" image . .. you were saying?

And I failed to mention these images in the Temple:

1Ki 7:29 And on the borders that were between the ledges were lions, oxen, and cherubims: and upon the ledges there was a base above: and beneath the lions and oxen were certain additions made of thin work.

1Ki 7:36 For on the plates of the ledges thereof, and on the borders thereof, he graved cherubims, lions, and palm trees, according to the proportion of every one, and additions round about.

1Ki 7:42 And four hundred pomegranates for the two networks, even two rows of pomegranates for one network, to cover the two bowls of the chapiters that were upon the pillars;

1Ki 7:44 And one sea, and twelve oxen under the sea;

1Ki 7:49 And the candlesticks of pure gold, five on the right side, and five on the left, before the oracle, with the flowers, and the lamps, and the tongs of gold,


​

I've heard rumors of hte pomegranate...but it's a theory of the origins of it...never concretly proven... and again...they were attached to chains and hung from the tops of the pillars....not free standing *statues* to which the priests paid reverence...[/quote]

Again, nothing about free standing statues in the commandment of God . ..

grasping Gwen . .. grasping . . .

You don't read it, because they didn't do it.
Not once would a Jew genuflect, pray, bow or otherwise reverence a man carved work of art if he loved the Most High G-d...

So, you are saying that the Jews did not reverence the Ark?

The purpose of the Temple was to honor and reverence the Ark for David grieved that he lived in a splendid house and the Ark was in a tent:

1Ch 17:1 Now it came to pass, as David sat in his house, that David said to Nathan the prophet, Lo, I dwell in an house of cedars, but the ark of the covenant of the LORD remaineth under curtains.

1Ch 28:2 Then David the king stood up upon his feet, and said, Hear me, my brethren, and my people: As for me, I had in mine heart to build an house of rest for the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and for the footstool of our God, and had made ready for the building:


​

But once again, you are missing the point of my argument . . . . God did not say we could have no images . . . God said we could have no images that we worshipped as gods.

Unless you are going to say that Christians who engage in the use of religious images believe those images are themselves gods, then you will have to admit that the use of religious images is not prohibited by scripture, and in fact is approved and hallowed by God Himself.


.

 

[thereselittleflower]

you would presume to blame me for the thread derailment? I gave a reason why I wouldn't post this in OBOB.

I did suggest that you move this to the denominational discussion subform of GT . . . you could have had much more control over what happened in your thread . . .


.

 

[thereselittleflower]

The same can be said of everyone at any given time of the day or night dear...

That is correcct, which is why simply bearing a label does not make one an expert or knowledgable.


.

 

[Uphill Battle]

They were outside the Holy Place . .. but that matters how exactly? The Temple consisted of the courts, the Holy Place and the Holy of Holies. This argument is nothing more than the semmatical splitting of hairs.

Now you are grasping at straws . .were they or were they not images?

Does the commandement of God apply only to images one finds inside the Holy Place?

I didn't think so . .. . .

and what about those towering angels whose wings streched all the way across the room?




The point is the are images, right?

When one bowed towards the temple one was bowing towards all that was in the Temple too, which obviously included these images, right?

And you forgot about the oxen, and the flowers, and etc . . .



Where is "free standing statues" in the commandment of God under discussion?

You are grasping at straws Gwen . . .

"graven image"

H6459
פּסל
pesel
peh'-sel
From H6458; an idol: - carved (graven) image.​

Where is "etching" in any of those scripures?

What is a chain? What is a wreath?

What does the word "carved" mean?

Look at the definition above of pesel again . . "carved" image . .. you were saying?

And I failed to mention these images in the Temple:

1Ki 7:29 And on the borders that were between the ledges were lions, oxen, and cherubims: and upon the ledges there was a base above: and beneath the lions and oxen were certain additions made of thin work.

1Ki 7:36 For on the plates of the ledges thereof, and on the borders thereof, he graved cherubims, lions, and palm trees, according to the proportion of every one, and additions round about.

1Ki 7:42 And four hundred pomegranates for the two networks, even two rows of pomegranates for one network, to cover the two bowls of the chapiters that were upon the pillars;

1Ki 7:44 And one sea, and twelve oxen under the sea;

1Ki 7:49 And the candlesticks of pure gold, five on the right side, and five on the left, before the oracle, with the flowers, and the lamps, and the tongs of gold,


​

I've heard rumors of hte pomegranate...but it's a theory of the origins of it...never concretly proven... and again...they were attached to chains and hung from the tops of the pillars....not free standing *statues* to which the priests paid reverence...

Again, nothing about free standing statues in the commandment of God . ..

grasping Gwen . .. grasping . . .





So, you are saying that the Jews did not reverence the Ark?

The purpose of the Temple was to honor and reverence the Ark for David grieved that he lived in a splendid house and the Ark was in a tent:

1Ch 17:1 Now it came to pass, as David sat in his house, that David said to Nathan the prophet, Lo, I dwell in an house of cedars, but the ark of the covenant of the LORD remaineth under curtains.

1Ch 28:2 Then David the king stood up upon his feet, and said, Hear me, my brethren, and my people: As for me, I had in mine heart to build an house of rest for the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and for the footstool of our God, and had made ready for the building:


​

But once again, you are missing the point of my argument . . . . God did not say we could have no images . . . God said we could have no images that we worshipped as gods.

Unless you are going to say that Christians who engage in the use of religious images believe those images are themselves gods, then you will have to admit that the use of religious images is not prohibited by scripture, and in fact is approved and hallowed by God Himself.


.[/QUOTE]
You are right TLF, there were very many images of various sorts in and around the temple.

We do not, however, have any record of anyone praying in front of them to reach whatever the image represented.

I think, mostly, is that the objection lies in the praying to a dead person, (although alive, truly alive....) moreso than the statue. For it to be truly idolatry, you would have to put it before God.

I've looked at the biblical records, and find no instances where anyone prayed to a "dearly departed."

 

[Uphill Battle]

I did suggest that you move this to the denominational discussion subform of GT . . . you could have had much more control over what happened in your thread . . .


.

except that if people decided to start debating, as they are now, the thread would be closed.