Staff/Members discussion [report-free]

[George95]

Hi topcare,

As Ed has stated, you're more than welcome to say that in the respective time and place provided you can support it.

 

[NamelessHero]

(Non Christian here)
Well, this is a CHRISTIAN website so it shouldn't be against the rules for a Christian to express their opinion so long as they are not being rude to another person about it.

 

[pdudgeon]

Maybe you do not know what off-topic means.

Let's say a sub-forum's name is Gardening.
If you post any topic that is not related to gardening it is off-topic.

If forum is American Politics - every topic must be about American Politics.

Congregational areas, like TAW, OBOB, Spirit/Filled, Baptist ... in these sub-forums you can talk about anything you want that is not against the local set of rules.
Talk about Islam all you want.

So, if you open a thread in American Politics about why Islam is wrong, the topic has nothing to do with American Politics.

If thread is reported the moderators would probably either move it to UT or even give a violation of poster keeps on doing the same thing.

Does this make sense?

and perhaps, just perhaps we have the crux of the matter.

In a congregational area the emphasis should first be on talking about anything you want so long as it is not against the local set of rules.
So if someone were to come into TAW and promote Islam, that would be off-topic posting. That post should have been removed. If there were replies to the post they could have been cleaned along with the thread.

But to tell a TAW member that they can't quote scripture in their own forum to explain their beliefs to someone who is not a Christian, and who is promoting things against their beliefs, would be to ignore the whole purpose of setting up Congregational forums.
In essence it would be the tail wagging the dog.

The whole purpose of allowing non-Christians to post in the Congregational areas should be one of teaching and educating from Christian to non-Christian, and a part of that education should allow for the full usage of both biblical and traditional resources by the members of that forum.

Yes Congregational forums should be different from General Theology, Politics etc. (and moderated differently) just because they are belief specific; designed not only to teach but also most importantly to support and sustain those specifics that are held in common.

And that's why ruling that congregation members might be engaged in 'drive-by shooting' when they are defending their faith to an outsider is so destructive to the fabric of the congregation itself.

 

[Edial]

and perhaps, just perhaps we have the crux of the matter.

In a congregational area the emphasis should first be on talking about anything you want so long as it is not against the local set of rules.
So if someone were to come into TAW and promote Islam, that would be off-topic posting. That post should have been removed. If there were replies to the post they could have been cleaned along with the thread.

But to tell a TAW member that they can't quote scripture in their own forum to explain their beliefs to someone who is not a Christian, and who is promoting things against their beliefs, would be to ignore the whole purpose of setting up Congregational forums.
In essence it would be the tail wagging the dog.

The whole purpose of allowing non-Christians to post in the Congregational areas should be one of teaching and educating from Christian to non-Christian, and a part of that education should allow for the full usage of both biblical and traditional resources by the members of that forum.

Yes Congregational forums should be different from General Theology, Politics etc. (and moderated differently) just because they are belief specific; designed not only to teach but also most importantly to support and sustain those specifics that are held in common.

And that's why ruling that congregation members might be engaged in 'drive-by shooting' when they are defending their faith to an outsider is so destructive to the fabric of the congregation itself.

But who said you cannot do this or that in Congregational areas?
This is your home.

This topic was revolving around complaint on report made in News forum.

If someone comes to TAW and pushes his theology - report it.

Drive-by shooting was in reference to Politics, News and other forums.

If someone is attacking your forums the rule of thumb is, the moderators would almost always take your side ...

 

[Ioustinos]

I understand what you are saying.
However, posting style is everything.

Someone says - Liberals are idiots.
Someone says - Conservatives are jerks.

Well, once you say that, you flame Liberals and Conservatives who are NOT idiots nor jerks.
That is clear.

Why can't one say - "some" Liberals are idiots? Some Conservatives are jerks?

That is where MSC mentoring comes in.
We usually reverse violations once people understand and agree.

The problem is, some people do not necessarily enjoy debating, but hurting others.
Some folks get a "high" over it.

Hey, it is easy yelling at total strangers who have no way of punching you on the nose.

Please understand that this is a Christian forum.
Some things will be changed - Lord willing.

If people confuse Christianity with a license to insult people they do not even know, just because Jesus called the Pharisees (whom he knew intimately) the children of the Devil, then this is not a place for it.

You are FREE to debate that Kaballah or Talmud is not of God. Even demonic. You can debate Koran was inspired by the Devil himself - no problem. But you have to be able to support your claims.

But if we say - Liberals are idiots - you will be flagged.
Not EVERY Liberal is an idiot.

I hope this makes sense.

Thanks,
Ed

Let's be more concrete. Say I view a thread on ISIS killing children and making young girls sex slaves and I decide to comment, "Islam is a religion of violence".

Would that be flagged as "flaming"?

 

[Edial]

(Non Christian here)
Well, this is a CHRISTIAN website so it shouldn't be against the rules for a Christian to express their opinion so long as they are not being rude to another person about it.

Yes.
The opinion however should not flame others who do not deserve it.

For example - Liberals are evil because they hate the United States.
This implies that ALL Liberals are evil because they hate the United States.
But this is not true.
There are Liberals who do not hate United States.
So, the generalized statement is a violation against CF members who are Liberal and do not hate the U|nites States.

But if I say SOME Liberals, you are not flaming the innocent.
Or, "you are devil's child"!
I am? You do not even know me.
A flame, violation.

Posting style is everything.

 

[Edial]

Let's be more concrete. Say I view a thread on ISIS killing children and making young girls sex slaves and I decide to comment, "Islam is a religion of violence".

Would that be flagged as "flaming"?

Good question.
Depending on the context and how the moderators would vote on that.
(I am one of the people who is handling appeals after the mods decide it as a violation).

But if I were you I would restate the statement in order to be safe.

Instead of "Islam is a religion of violence" you could say "Islam is a violent religion".
I hope you see the subtle difference.

Your suggested expression says that the purpose of Islam is violence.
It is not true. It has a different purpose.

 

[Edial]

Ed, understand that I agree totally that we need to be humble and conciliatory in our approach to those outside the Church. I rarely, if ever, choose to engage in debate because it often devolves into a verbal "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ing contest".

I absolutely do not venture outside TAW for the very reason that I come her to fellowship with other Orthodox and like minded people and to minister to outsiders who wander into our house. I am certain you are aware that a number of our regular posters here are clergy, some are even monastics. Others of us are Cradle Orthodox who enjoy discussing deeper issues. A number are recent converts who are looking for guidance and fellowship that grows our faith.

Those of us who are Orthodox likely know who is who if we have been here very long, we know what to watch for.

That said, I will now address the quotes from above. In the first, you engage in exactly what you have warned us against...casting aspersions as to what is in the heart of "me" (not me, but apparently we are not supposed to name names) in his/her posts without any support for that. I find that somewhat offensive but forgivable as it is just evidence of how fallen all of us are as mortal humans.

In the second, I feel actually insulted because Christianity in no way promotes any of those things and for you to use that as an example flies in the face of available evidence, while there are ample examples of contemporary practice in Islam that is IS INDEED a religion of violence and evil. I have friends who have had to leave their countries and leave everything behind because of threats on their lives if they would not renounce Christ. I also have a Muslim friend who left Pakistan on a mule through the mountains to come to America because a price had been put on his head by the Taliban. His crime? Being a doctor who treated women and children, and refused stop providing medical care to them when the Imam told him to. I go to church with people who have had family members stoned, beheaded, disfigured, had their posessions taken. When you hear in the news about rockets fired in Jordan, I hear about whose house those rockets went over at church. Do YOU have a personal history of dealing with Isamic violence? Do you have a clue how many of us do? This is brought up to provide you with some perspective. This would be like you lecturing a group of Israeli Jews on how suicide bombing isn't really such a scary topic if you just watch out where you go. The fact is that mainstream Christianity deounces people who practice extremism that is hurtful in the name of Christ, but it seems to me that much of Islam stands silently by in fear rather than condemning the bad practices.

If I have in any way offended, please forgive me, for I am first amongst sinners. My comments are meant to give perspective and remind you that your Christianity is not necessarily another's Christianity, and that perspective can drive strong emotions. Please be gentle with us, and forgive us when we transgress. To try to tell us that we need to just be less sensitive or to be a little softer with those who would kill and maim us in the name of destroying Christianity (which IS a basic tenet of Islam) comes off as patronizing and having no respect for what Orthodox Christians live with every day.

In Christ
Antony

My response disappeared someplace.
Let me retype what I remember.

It was not my intent to post about Christianity this way.
I was giving an example that some might start accusing Christianity of polygamy because it is in the Bible.
That is why we should avoid branding every Muslim as a necessary sex slave practitioner, because it is in Koran.

I am talking about rules and posting styles.

I also apologize if I insulted anyone, it was not my intent at all.

We have a lot of miscommunication here and mixing News forum events with events that might be happening in TAW.

And I have no intention to be tough with TAW at all!
Actually the Advisors are very attentive to Congregational forums and we personally dedicate a lot of attention to the ones that ask us to.

 

[rusmeister]

Reluctantly stepping in.
My thanks to "Mr Ed" for offering this opportunity.

I've been a member for almost a decade, and after a few brief forays early on into other forums, decided to stay in TAW and not push myself where I was not wanted. My own contribution here, as I have seen it, is much more to try to bring to Orthodox Christians how much our own thinking, mine included, is infected by the thinking, philosophies, and practices and assumptions of the world. And if an inquirer who has come to us has thoughts or questions, to comment on them. To offer my worthless prayers when others ask, and to ask for a few for me and mine.

I'm just really tired of drama. I don't want any, and don't want to be a drama queen. I don't want to "leave" multiple times. I stepped away from the boards for months in the wake of a struggle over internal heresy (the only kind I consider actual heresy - the kind originating within the Orthodox Church) among members; then I came back only to find rising tides of political correctness reaching even into TAW; I started the inevitability thread because I do think that divided Christianity - which is NOT the same thing as the Christian Church - is bound to apostatize sooner or later, despite everyone's best intentions. A mod shut down the thread and gave me -unofficially - a warning, and that was a last straw for me.

So I'm glad to see that you're willing to let Orthodox folk have their own voice here for now, though there are concerns, especially around confusing people and their ideas, on the part of zealous Christians eager to defend the Faith, judging people along with their ideas, and on the part of overseers who would prevent the judging of people and so quash the proper condemnation of ideas along with that.
So I do think that, in the short run, all good things must come to an end.

I have brought GK Chesterton here a lot because he had the wonderful and annoying habit of appreciating his enemies, and turning them into friends, and am trying to learn that myself.

Although I do not think Islam by any means to be the only issue, on that issue, Islam is a big word. It covers a large number of people over a large geographical area over a long period. There are certainly variations, and in our time there is a loud voice in the West that can be said to be "moderate". But there are general traits that are common to the religion over space and time that mark it as one inimicable to Christians, that belie the claims of the modern moderates and all of the efforts to obfuscate and cloud those traits that are in fact exhibited by what the modern press calls "extremist", but is actually what Muslims have usually done over their history as a rule.
So with all best wishes to those "moderates", I think they, along with the nominal Muslims, who, in my opinion, do not really believe Islam anyway, the main feature of nominalism, do not actually represent Islam, and that we are on safe and reasonable ground in speaking of that historical Islam, which believes in jihad, would practice devshirme if they could, and thinks the peace of Allah should be spread across the Earth, including by force. This is what Muslims have historically ALWAYS done with the blessing of common Islamic teaching. Christian evils, on the other hand, have always been done in SPITE of Christian teaching.

But we will always have difficulties in speaking to heterodox Christians, those that do not accept the authority of the Orthodox Church, because of the very issue of authority. We don't think Scripture to be the source of authority, and so quoting Bible verses doesn't work on us. We think the Orthodox Church wrote the Bible, above all, the table of contents, and so there will always be sticking points between us. If you don't agree on the authority whereby a thing should be interpreted, you're going to have division, schism and problems.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

My response disappeared someplace.
Let me retype what I remember.

It was not my intent to post about Christianity this way.
I was giving an example that some might start accusing Christianity of polygamy because it is in the Bible.
That is why we should avoid branding every Muslim as a necessary sex slave practitioner, because it is in Koran.

I am talking about rules and posting styles.

I also apologize if I insulted anyone, it was not my intent at all.

Some of this seems very similar to the ways other Christians have extensively done a lot of violence and other believers have had to ask others to not generalize them - like people saying "All you believers are like the KKK" (due to burning crosses and the things they did with the Scriptures" which were normative....or seeing Westboro Baptist or Charismatic Christians claiming God told them to prophetically marry another (with NT) ONLY FOR them to end up in divorce later on....and of course, the extensive amount of cult groups who did a lot of perverted things (like with what occurred in the later years of the Jesus People movement of the 60s/70s)


I get incensed seeing other Christians TODAY advocating that slavery itself was not unbiblical and that others were wrong to stand against it even in the CIVIL War - with many ministers from that era using the NT to justify the trafficking of others around the world. Happened to come up a number of times with THE Reformed camp when saying God ordained slavery - as it bothers me a lot seeing comments like that and the same goes for claiming that racial segregation can be defended biblically. These things are not new and have given believers a very bad name. And the same goes for seeing Christians justify things such as Manifest Destiny and the destruction of First Nations People in the name of Christ, Colonialism/Imperialism around the world using Christ and scripture to justify it for centuries, the excessive greed done in the name of Christ when it comes to exalting economic systems that prey on others/constantly promote consumption or others claiming Christ (such as Mormons)doing violence.

There are so many negatives that could be made on the behavior of other Christians who misuse the scriptures (both NT and OT) to do damage - but it would be wrong for me to say "Christianity is violent!" because of what many do in the name of it and on bad interpretations....and it seems you're saying do not do the same thing to Muslims when making sweeping claims of all in the group. If that is what you're saying, I think it makes sense.

 

[Dorothea]

That's always been the area of contention and sensitivity and the struggle for us Orthodox - trying to explain a theology or belief system that is false or as some said here, evil, and separating that from the followers of that theology or belief system. It seems a tightrope and many times the people you are engaged in conversation with don't get the distinction. I've had that in the past debating in GT several times. I don't go there anymore because it only caused unsettling and no peace in my soul, and frankly, a waste of my time.

 

[Kristos]

But who said you cannot do this or that in Congregational areas?
This is your home.

This topic was revolving around complaint on report made in News forum.

If someone comes to TAW and pushes his theology - report it.

Drive-by shooting was in reference to Politics, News and other forums.

If someone is attacking your forums the rule of thumb is, the moderators would almost always take your side ...

Why are we discussing a complaint made from the News forum in TAW? If there is a problem with individuals, then deal with them - don't imply that "we" have a problem. I doubt most of us even visit the News forum...

 

[Tallguy88]

Why are we discussing a complaint made from the News forum in TAW? If there is a problem with individuals, then deal with them - don't imply that "we" have a problem. I doubt most of us even visit the News forum...

The issues that Rus and others brought up are the reason this thread was started. Some members are feeling attacked or over moderated in TAW. Another member brought up a warning an Orthodox member received from the News board and the two issues have become confused in this discussion.

So the Islam question is not the focus of this thread. The question as I see it is "Why do certain Orthodox members feel unwelcome or unsafe in TAW and what can we do to fix the situation?"

So, do you feel over moderated in TAW? Or are there any other issues that need to be addressed?

 

[Kristos]

The issues that Rus and others brought up are the reason this thread was started. Some members are feeling attacked or over moderated in TAW. Another member brought up a warning an Orthodox member received from the News board and the two issues have become confused in this discussion.

So the Islam question is not the focus of this thread. The question as I see it is "Why do certain Orthodox members feel unwelcome or unsafe in TAW and what can we do to fix the situation?"

So, do you feel over moderated in TAW? Or are there any other issues that need to be addressed?

I will admit that I have become somewhat short and snarky over the years. Perhaps I have just been posting here for too long and no longer have the necessary patience. I think the vision for TAW was always to be warm and welcoming. A place for questions to be answered and the faith to be shared in charity and love. I would not mind, in fact I would welcome it, if someone called me on my failures in this regard - privately of course.

I do not feel that TAW is over moderated.

I was not aware that any Orthodox member felt unwelcomed or unsafe. That is a shame on us.

 

[gzt]

Part of the problem is that being right does not remove the responsibility to be polite. Not that I don't transgress that, as I'm always right but sometimes not polite. But we have to realize that some things, even if we think they're right and true, are not helpful to say on a public forum. I mean, "Protestantism" is still usually prefaced in my mind by "the satanic delusion of...". It is not helpful to say this aloud every time we discuss the satanic delusion of Protestantism.

If you want to discuss "unwelcome" or "unsafe", the question isn't about the people who are still here, but the people who are left. The loud voices who are declaiming loudly about inevitability have largely drowned out the less "traditional" voices by making it very tiresome to be anything other a particular strand of Orthodox and represent that view in the forum. I'm strongly of the opinion that, since this is a public board that has a lot of inquirers, newly-illumined, or just friendly strangers, that we should be quite careful of the type of discourse we have so that we represent the breadth of the experience of Orthodoxy and don't "forbid" views that are Orthodox but not fitting into one small strand of Orthodoxy. This doesn't mean "accepting heresy" or "being politically correct" (1994 called...), but it does mean that lengthy diatribes against views that are common and legitimate within Orthodoxy aren't really appropriate, that politics has to be discussed very carefully, and it's not a good idea to psychologize others' responses by trying to fit them into a grand world narrative: that's rude (cf Peter Suber, "Logical Rudeness").

 

[rusmeister]

Another thing is that I think it is totally wrong for Orthodox to appeal to non-Orthodox over what is Orthodox. We don't have 100% agreement on doctrine - though we ought to, and so part of the issue - one that I will only discuss with other Orthodox - is whether particular ideas can be considered compatible with Orthodox teaching. GZT believes in a "broad spectrum" (which I interpret as multiplicity of opinion on what Orthodox teaching is regarding the consensus of what has been established), evidently touching even doctrine. I do not, though I certainly concede that local practices may legitimately vary considerably. But the only aspect of that that concerns non-Orthodox moderation is that it is an internal matter - a person must first have accepted the authority of the Church in its consensus to correct any individual opinion - even my own (as I do accept). Gzt and I can have it out without outside assistance.

In those cases, those convinced that an idea is incompatible with Orthodox theology are going to be logical in not welcoming that idea, again as distinct from the person.

Main reasons for me leaving are: a sustained presence of members identifying as Orthodox teaching in contradiction to Orthodoxy and being tolerated by the Orthodox laity as a whole in doing so, or non-Orthodox censoring expression of Orthodox members in our own sub-forum. The first caused me to drop out last summer, the second is what pushed me away just now.

I'm talking ONLY about what goes on in TAW. Other forums do not interest me.

 

[gzt]

I would agree that non-Orthodox moderators should only be around for matters of, say, decorum or enforcing other rather cut-and-dry rules. I don't think they should be completely cut out, though, since there are some inter-Orthodox squabbles and having somebody who is not invested in the fight to enforce decorum - and only decorum - is a reasonable idea, since there simply isn't enough manpower to keep things running otherwise.

 

[Tallguy88]

Would it help if more Orthodox became moderators? Would that help allay your concerns that you are being moderated by outsiders? We have a few on staff at the moment, but we would be happy if more applied.

 

[Tallguy88]

I would agree that non-Orthodox moderators should only be around for matters of, say, decorum or enforcing other rather cut-and-dry rules. I don't think they should be completely cut out, though, since there are some inter-Orthodox squabbles and having somebody who is not invested in the fight to enforce decorum - and only decorum - is a reasonable idea, since there simply isn't enough manpower to keep things running otherwise.

Generally speaking, this is how we (certainly I) try to moderate. I'm not qualified to say what is the genuine Orthodox opinion in your and Rus' disagreements. So generally such would be considered an internal matter for you to debate amongst yourselves. Where I would step in is on a clear cut violation. It doesn't matter if you are Orthodox, Catholic, SDA, or whatever. If you call someone an "idiot" you will get pinched for it, even if your are an Orthodox posting in TAW.

 

[Edial]

Reluctantly stepping in.
My thanks to "Mr Ed" for offering this opportunity.

I've been a member for almost a decade, and after a few brief forays early on into other forums, decided to stay in TAW and not push myself where I was not wanted. My own contribution here, as I have seen it, is much more to try to bring to Orthodox Christians how much our own thinking, mine included, is infected by the thinking, philosophies, and practices and assumptions of the world. And if an inquirer who has come to us has thoughts or questions, to comment on them. To offer my worthless prayers when others ask, and to ask for a few for me and mine.

I'm just really tired of drama. I don't want any, and don't want to be a drama queen. I don't want to "leave" multiple times. I stepped away from the boards for months in the wake of a struggle over internal heresy (the only kind I consider actual heresy - the kind originating within the Orthodox Church) among members; then I came back only to find rising tides of political correctness reaching even into TAW; I started the inevitability thread because I do think that divided Christianity - which is NOT the same thing as the Christian Church - is bound to apostatize sooner or later, despite everyone's best intentions. A mod shut down the thread and gave me -unofficially - a warning, and that was a last straw for me.

So I'm glad to see that you're willing to let Orthodox folk have their own voice here for now, though there are concerns, especially around confusing people and their ideas, on the part of zealous Christians eager to defend the Faith, judging people along with their ideas, and on the part of overseers who would prevent the judging of people and so quash the proper condemnation of ideas along with that.
So I do think that, in the short run, all good things must come to an end.

I have brought GK Chesterton here a lot because he had the wonderful and annoying habit of appreciating his enemies, and turning them into friends, and am trying to learn that myself.

Although I do not think Islam by any means to be the only issue, on that issue, Islam is a big word. It covers a large number of people over a large geographical area over a long period. There are certainly variations, and in our time there is a loud voice in the West that can be said to be "moderate". But there are general traits that are common to the religion over space and time that mark it as one inimicable to Christians, that belie the claims of the modern moderates and all of the efforts to obfuscate and cloud those traits that are in fact exhibited by what the modern press calls "extremist", but is actually what Muslims have usually done over their history as a rule.
So with all best wishes to those "moderates", I think they, along with the nominal Muslims, who, in my opinion, do not really believe Islam anyway, the main feature of nominalism, do not actually represent Islam, and that we are on safe and reasonable ground in speaking of that historical Islam, which believes in jihad, would practice devshirme if they could, and thinks the peace of Allah should be spread across the Earth, including by force. This is what Muslims have historically ALWAYS done with the blessing of common Islamic teaching. Christian evils, on the other hand, have always been done in SPITE of Christian teaching.

But we will always have difficulties in speaking to heterodox Christians, those that do not accept the authority of the Orthodox Church, because of the very issue of authority. We don't think Scripture to be the source of authority, and so quoting Bible verses doesn't work on us. We think the Orthodox Church wrote the Bible, above all, the table of contents, and so there will always be sticking points between us. If you don't agree on the authority whereby a thing should be interpreted, you're going to have division, schism and problems.

Welcome.

I understand what you are saying and thank you for this.
Let me just respond to some points in general as well as to what CFs concerns are.

Let me start from the end.
You made a strong and unusual to many statement that Orthodox Church "wrote" the Bible instead of compiling that what was already accepted and read in local churches.
But that us your opinion and it is a great topic of discussion.

You also used a distinction of "historic Islam" as compared to "moderate Islam" in order to show a degree of violence on each side.
This is what I am also asking. Let people not broad stroke moderate Muslims as violent. Islam covers all shades of Muslims.

You also shared your concerns about the church getting apostate.
The church IS getting apostate and WILL get more apostate in time before the 2nd Coming of Christ.
It is expected and we are told how to address this.
Patience, do not get politically involved, keep yourself pure, love each other.
And we WILL be chased down to worshiping in basements while Christmas becomes a "Holiday" where the stores celebrate all the money they make.

I have my own views on how to combat all this, but this thread is a not a place for it.

Political correctness within TAW and CF.
PC is not being promoted nor encouraged at CF.

Straight talk is best talk, as long as you do not intend to personally insult an individual you have never met and as long as your statements accurately reflect the facts.

Do we have a freedom of opinion here? No.
You cannot call someone an idiot just because it is your opinion.

Can you discuss any topic?
Yes, as long as you are not abusing on-line people you have never met.

Are we expected to use a mind-numbing philosophical posting style where no one understands what the heck the other one said?
No, this will kill a forum faster than a heresy.

What I am presenting here is how to adjust the posting style by expressing oneself as clearly and accurately as you can to individuals we know nothing about.

Address the post not the poster has been a pretty good rule of posting netiquette.

Thanks,
Ed