"Christian" is used as a pejorative term by quite a few posters here. The irony is that it has the exact same meaning as "Messianic"
Shared this before in another discussion, as it concerns what often seems to happen whenever there is an attempt to label anything that is not about Torah Observance or appreciation of Torah as being akin to "Christian"---and then attacking anyone not against being called "Christian" by assuming that they are not truly "Messianic." .....for as said before, one cannot make any kind of "cut & dried" judgments on the issue of what camp does what...and that in many ways, it's akin to asking what the shape of an ocean wave looks like. Each one looks differently and one must go with a case-by-case basis.
For a better analogy, imagine someone asking "This is what Black culture is like in the U.S--what are the differences between it and other dominant cultures like White culture?"...you could at some point speak on some differences--but it would not be fully accurate when considering how black culture has NEVER been homegenous/unified at all points, with sharp differences between each sub-culture within the culture (i.e. West Indian Blacks, Biracial Blacks, Blacks loving the Arts vs Blacks in Agriculture, Blacks for Rock & Roll vs those for Hip Hop/BET entertainment, etc) and many of them trying to ensure they "get the Mic" (Microphone) and define what the black experience in the U.S is like. One could make generalities like saying all blacks were discriminated against by whites for the most part since the nations's founding---and one could say whites never had to experience racial discrimination on the same level as minorites do..
Nonetheless, they'd never be able to have complete detail on the issue since history is VERY COMPLEX. Especially when considering that White culture has had varities as well, with many whites getting mistreatment amongst themselves (i.e. Italians and Irish getting blasted during the days of Elis Island and mistreated, even deemed as being "colored" by those who were Americans---even though at a later point, they'd all be considered "white")....and for those whites that had black family members/wives, things were never as simply as an "us vs them" (and as a Black Hispanic myself, I don't say that lightly).
Likewise, IMHO, it's the case that with MJism and Christiantiy that defining the movements as a whole can be very difficult for a host of reasons. One of them is that MJism was originally developed from what was known as Hebrew Christianity/the Hebrew Christian Movement----and what has occurrred since the MJish movement developed in the 60s/70s (as outreach to the Jewish community) has been a radical transformation at many points where there are so many camps within the camps (i.e One Law, Two House, Hebrew Roots, Those who claim to be against Paul for his views on Grace, etc).
And each of those sub-cultures within the MJish camps had differing reasons for why they broke off as they did.....and why each feels that THEY are the ones who define the MJish experience the best. Thus, when they each respectively ask "What's the differences between MJish and Christianity", they generally tend to assume they (in what they've seen ) is the accurate definition of what it means to be MJish and what they've seen of Christiantiy is how it has always been,
In many ways, just as there are many Islams (i.e Sunni, Shiite, Sufi, etc), so there are many MJisms and many Christianities (i.e. Evangelical, Reformed, Liturgical, Hebrew Christianity, African Christianity, etc)---and studying them in-depth and travelling within many groups, I've noticed where there seems to be alot of overlap between groups.
For myself, I feel more comfortable giving out qualifying terms such as "most" or "many" ---and in regards to the differences between MJism and Christianity at large, I'd say that the main things I've noticed is that it seems to be more so the case that within MJism people (Jew and Gentile) say that the Torah was never done away with/made to be unimportant---and there seems to be a greater emphasis overall with things such as celebrating the Festivals/Jewish Holidays as best as they can (in light of how there's not a temple to do it 100%), having fellowship/services on Saturday as Sabbath and trying to be about Kosher.
Again, this is not to say that it's the case that those things do not occur within Christianity since many Jews have been involved in those circles/love it and felt their Jewish heritage was well reflected....but if I had to make an overall generalization, I'd say that there seems to be more of an emphasis of having a Judaic lifestyle within Messianic Judaism.
Much of what is said is based on a historical perspective of seasons---as there was one point where Christianity would be really indistinguisable from MJism when it comes to the emphasis on the Judaic---and there was a time when it was the case those involved in it were able to work alongside the Gentiles who were not necessarily called to live the same way as the Jews did (even though both were in Messiah).
Both lived/died together for the faith, appreciating the differences in one another and supporting one another. However, when persecution in the empire came against the Jews---especially during the time when Christianity was institutionalized and anything deemed "Jewish" was hated by the majority population of Gentiles....and the Jewish Revolt of A.D70 led to alot of Anti-Jewish sentiment amongst the Roman---the Gentiles were placed significantly within a majority. For many Jews, they had no choice except to hide amongst their Gentiles brothers (or change their identities) and many Gentiles were placed in a difficult position.
For it was already the case that there was much Anti-Jewish sentiment within the Empire---but Christianity also had suffered as well.....and for them, better to try adapting to the majority for the time being than lose all status by trying to keep the Jewish perspective in view.
In many ways, Crypto-Christianity began at that point for those who were Jews hiding amongst the Gentiles and having to seek shelter with their Gentile brothers---and where many assume the Gentiles were simply anti-semtic (which was the case for many Gentiles), I'd also say that others simply were trying to do the best they could to survive.....and at least stay around as a majority long enough to possibly change things in the future when the culture was more open to Jewish perspectives. Whenever a religion becomes co-opted by the government/made the OFFICIAL religion, there are some serious set-backs. More power is given....but at the same time, the secular/non-religious in the culture have more of a say in it even when they truly do not follow the Lord of that religion.
In time, sadly, what occurred is that future generations of Gentiles forgot the entire reasons why they were in the majority....coming to hate the Jews/assume some of the rhetoric spoken against them rather than remembering that some of it was a smoke-screen/an attempt to put up somewhat of a front before the culture while allowing the Jews to lay low---and many Jews who laid low, in future generations, came to be the minority who forgot that Christianity was once something that was never meant to be deem as being "anti-Jewish"......
More on that was shared more so in another thread, as seen here:
Easy G (G²);57980782 said:
Technically, in context, Christianity is really a sect of Judaism...but the problem is that context has been lost. What I mean is if we were in the 1st century right now, I believe it would be evident that all believers would be practicing a sect of Judaism....and for those believers within Judaism that didn't practice the new camp that Christians came into, they'd be quick to realize that many practices were indeed Judaic practices that were altered from other camps to seem different.
Easy G (G²);58450339 said:
Without Paul, the church would have not been able to survive to the significant degree which it did...and for those noting that what was deemed as the "Church" (including the Church Father's) was just Gentiles, it may be significant to remember that many involved were from a Jewish worldview.
For some examples, Hegesippus, a second century writer, is an extant orthodox, Jewish Christian that comes to mind outside of the New Testament. And after a bit of poking around I found Aristo of Pella, who recorded a debate between another Jewish Christian, Jason, and a Jew, Papiscus. Apparently Papiscus was so influenced by Jason that he eventually converted to Christianity as well.
For another, as I read elsewhere:
"Origen had known and been profoundly influenced by a Palestinian Jewish convert to Christianity in Alexandria, a son of a rabbi, who was capable of answering questions about the Hebrew Bible."
(Thomas P. Scheck, Homilies on Numbers footnote 66, in Ancient Christian Texts 3:76)
Given this and other evidence which has been provided, it is clear that there were still Jewish converts to both orthodox and heterodox Christianity well into the second century, and even the third. That there were many more Gentiles among the Christians is no surprise considering that the Hebrews were a minority demographic.
As it concerns why many Jews joined into Christianity and others wondering "Why does it seem so few Jews are able to be identified in Gentile churches", the problem is that after 70 AD and the destruction of the 2nd Temple and Jerusalem, the Jews did not really respond to the message too much any more and the fact that they had some other problems and things going on did not help. If the Temple and Jerusalem had stayed the center of Judaism the Jewish Christians would have stayed there too and there would be a lot more Jewish Christians known to us today. But that is not the way history worked out and the message was taken to the Gentiles and spread around them and stayed there.
I think the other problem is after 70 AD even the Jewish Christians most likely just wanted to be known as Christians so as to avoid a lot of drama and problems because of the Jewish identification. Considering the atmosphere of Rome when it came to not liking the Jewish people, it would have been a good thing to remain undercover...especially after what Titus did to Jerusalem and how many were to be deported ON SIGHT to the far ends of the earth.
And for reference, one can go
here or here:
There have been some excellent discussions on the subject/variations within MJism and Christianity, as
seen here . Additionally, as it relates to the issue of who qualifies for being a "Jew" or not, Dr. Michael Brown actually wrote something very solid on the issue in his article entitled
Who Is a Jew? Questions of Ethnicity, Religion, and Identity"--to which he did an excellent job in seeking to deal with the issue. And on the issue, even for people saying that only those born "Jewish" can be considered "Messianic Jews", I think that its already interesting to me to see that even among Jewish people there is debate on who qualifies as a "Jew"--as most think Jews look a certain way...and even Jews of certain ethnicities have been discriminated against by their own people when they didn't look the part---be it with Ethopian Jews or Indian Jews and many others.
Just to throw out the thought, as I've often seen circles within Christianity that're identical to those within Messianic Jewish camps (and vice versa), perhaps it'd be best to say that the focus is really between Hebrew/Jewish Christianity vs Gentile Christianity and Gentile MJism vs Jewish MJism.....
Christianity is not a gentile religion. It is A-racial...... Neither Jew nor Gentile. And Christianity (like Judaism) isn't completely unified on it's theology. I would agree and disagree with many sects from both (in part) I suppose. And for myself, I think it's best to remember that the goal in Christ is for Jews to not feel they must become "Gentile" in order to serve the Lord, just as Gentiles are not to feel as if they must become Jewish in their lifestyle to be acceptable before the Messiah. Whether that be the case in Messianic Judaism with Gentiles/Jews living together or in Christianity with the same occurring.
The issue is really one of dominance....and who gets to have the Mic (microphone).
With MJism, the basis of it's formation was to ensure that Jews had a spot where they were able to feel as if they were a Majority/able to dictate how things went rather feeling as if they had to be a minority within Churches---many of which would have no problem making their experiences comfortable/suitable for their viewpoints (as evidenced by the many Jews happily content within Churches)...while others, as a majority, never had concern for their specific needs for Jewish expression.
awesome to see you here and sooooo soon too!!!!
