Staff and Member discussion thread.

[Gxg (G²)]

I am no theological expert, just a simple country Baptist minister who works hard trying to help others and in my hospital where I minister to patients. God bless.

Didn't know you reached out the patients, but that's really cool. At the church I grew up in, they were trying to find ways to get more involved doing that and one of my elders does that often when he goes/prays for the healing of patients.

Cool to see what you're doing in action...

What are some ways we can bridge the gap and make the MJ forum more cohesive, supportive and fulfilling?

Interestingly enough, what you noted about working in hospitals/sharing that actually goes with some of the suggestions others have made when it comes to what you asked on. For many have noted how much of a pity it can be that others can literally go to war with every/any individual not in agreement with their own ideology of Observance---and yet when it comes to simple fellowship or encouragement in things one is doing to impact others, there's silence. Other MJish individuals have suggested doing more fellowship threads on the main forum for others wishing to find common ground/things all have in common....or be able to talk on things that all can agree with, if all claim to be brothers/sisters in Christ. What often seems to happen is a good degree of polarization where others vehemently against another will not even try to find agreement on anything, even if someone says they happen to like art...but for other MJish members who are about fellowship/interaction on things of everyday life, it's a blast. Personally, I sought to do a couple of these kinds of threads on differing occassions..one of which dealt with things like Comics (seen here ), another focused upon sharing the Messianic fellowships members go to ( seen here ), another on Pirates of Jewish background ( here ) while another on dancing during worship services and music others like ( here and Here /h ) and many others. Other MJish members have done threads on things like Art/seeing God's creation, such as the thread entitled God is an awesome artist ....and others such as Music of Ralph Vaughan-Williams and Great Messianic Music /here among many others.

As other Messianics have noted, it's often hard to keep fellowship threads going since many do not wish to fellowship as much as they wish to argue

 

[Chaplain David]

Didn't know you reached out the patients, but that's really cool. At the church I grew up in, they were trying to find ways to get more involved doing that and one of my elders does that often when he goes/prays for the healing of patients.

Cool to see what you're doing in action...



Interestingly enough, what you noted about working in hospitals/sharing that actually goes with some of the suggestions others have made when it comes to what you asked on. For many have noted how much of a pity it can be that others can literally go to war with every/any individual not in agreement with their own ideology of Observance---and yet when it comes to simple fellowship or encouragement in things one is doing to impact others, there's silence. Other MJish individuals have suggested doing more fellowship threads on the main forum for others wishing to find common ground/things all have in common....or be able to talk on things that all can agree with, if all claim to be brothers/sisters in Christ. What often seems to happen is a good degree of polarization where others vehemently against another will not even try to find agreement on anything, even if someone says they happen to like art.

I have always been a minister because my health is not good enough to pastor. I was sent straight into Hospital Chaplain. It's fantastic and I know one of the main reasons I am here.

Sometimes simplicity contains a lot of knowledge. All good suggestions and thank you for the compliments.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I have always been a minister because my health is not good enough to pastor. .

Odd, as I know others who would be of the mind that being a minister requires good health just as much as being a pastor.

I was sent straight into Hospital Chaplain. It's fantastic and I know one of the main reasons I am here.

Sometimes simplicity contains a lot of knowledge.

Agreed.

All good suggestions and thank you for the compliment

Shalom..

 

[Chaplain David]

Odd, as I know others who would be of the mind that being a minister requires good health just as much as being a pastor.


Agreed. Shalom..

There are a couple of things that come into play for me. There is nothing more important than working for the Lord. And pastoring, God bless them all, takes an enormous amount of hours. Those guys have spiritual superchargers and work a lot of hours during the week. Thankfully, I can work less and still be of service. Sometimes I cannot be of service outside my home but that is why God has given us CF IMO. It serves an important purpose in many of our lives.

Shalom

PS One of the cool things about hospital chaplaining is that while I am there, they are my flock. So I get to minister to those of many denominations and some of no faith at all.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Thanks Easy! You too!

Actually I have most of my time here consumed in General Theology... I like coming here for the relative peace and tranquility.

Glad you have a sense of humor, Bruh.

 

[Yahudim]

Going back to Tishri's OP:

And taking into consideration the last couple of posts made by my brothers and sisters in Christ Jerushabelle and Talmidim but addressing this to everyone,

What are some ways we can bridge the gap and make the MJ forum more cohesive, supportive and fulfilling? I'm talking especially about being Torah Observant and people measuring other people's observance as not being enough or being too much. I'm also talking about the suggestons being within the current framework of this wonderful forum and it's SOP.

Suggestions anyone?

Shalmom to you brothers an sisters.

BTW, I am no theological expert, just a simple country Baptist minister who works hard trying to help others and in my hospital where I minister to patients. God bless.

Shalom to you too, David;

The answer seems to be the one most resisted. Make a forum for Hebrew Christians. Not that there aren't Messianics of Jewish descent. There are. They belong here. But those Christians of Jewish descent (determined by their professed beliefs) should have their own forum OR should choose the Christian denomination that most closely aligns with their beliefs. Seems simple.

Bridge building is something that is done between groups with doctrinal differences, not usually considered within a faith group. That's how I understand it anyway. We wouldn't need to consider it in this context if things were a little different.

Blessings,

 

[Gxg (G²)]

There are a couple of things that come into play for me. There is nothing more important than working for the Lord. And pastoring, God bless them all, takes an enormous amount of hours. Those guys have spiritual superchargers and work a lot of hours during the week. Thankfully, I can work less and still be of service. Sometimes I cannot be of service outside my home but that is why God has given us CF IMO. It serves an important purpose in many of our lives.

Can definately see that. Sometimes, it can depend on how one defines pastoring, in light of how many fellowships are not for the concept of having a single/senior pastor and instead have multiple eldership/leaders in place so that all can do the work.

PS One of the cool things about hospital chaplaining is that while I am there, they are my flock. So I get to minister to those of many denominations and some of no faith at all.

The rabbi at the Messianic fellowship I go to used to do chaplaining often and saw many of the same things. For him, ministry is wherever believers are present and the Lord has placed someone in front of you to serve.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

What are some ways we can bridge the gap and make the MJ forum more cohesive, supportive and fulfilling? .

Not certain if you're aware of it--but over the past couple of months, Sister Tishri has been trying to lead alot of change as it concerns the main forum this thread/many others developed in. Her heart was to have the main forum being solely a place for fellowship while debates were to really be taking place in the forums for others of certain persuasions.

Sadly, no one has really honored her (or the staff helping) in adhering to what she desired when it came to asking for serious debates to be taken away to certain forums...be it the one called All Things Torah or the other forum called Bridge Builders. What has often happened is that people from both sides have persisted in coming after one another in the main forum and then debating about who is or isn't allowed to be in the forum rather than going with what the rules actually say about the kind of content that the MAIN Forum allows. Honoring Tishri in what she has worked hard for would be something I think would go a long way in keeping things running...

In regards to the previous threads for reference showing where she has worked hard:

• subforum names(Theology / belief related names)
• MJ only should we restrict controversial topics here to keep the peace
• 3 month Test- using the subforums for each group of MJs and the main forum for fellow

For more, one can also go to #132 , #175 /#169. There seems to be a determination for others to get involved in threads that may not have things in line with their mindsets..and in many ways, it seems that the real issue is one of not knowing how to interact when in the home or neighborhood of another. If there's going to be insistence in going into places that one knows in advance will bring sharp disagreement, one can learn how to go about disagreeing agreeably...or at least learning how to listen/move on. For many, the desire is for others to HAVE to hear what they want others to agree with so it may be difficult to have things one way...

 

[Avodat]

I have always been a minister because my health is not good enough to pastor. I was sent straight into Hospital Chaplain. It's fantastic and I know one of the main reasons I am here.

Sometimes simplicity contains a lot of knowledge. All good suggestions and thank you for the compliments.

As an ordained person of some years standing, I am interested in knowing how you see a difference in those two titles - I see none.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

What are some ways we can bridge the gap and make the MJ forum more cohesive, supportive and fulfilling? I'm talking especially about being Torah Observant and people measuring other people's observance as not being enough or being too much. .

The main two threads where votes went down to show where others stood are the following:

• Who believes this to be true: The Torah is not for Gentiles
• Who believes this to be true? -We are saved by Torah, not by faith/grace in Yeshua

One of the polls done directly on the matter had most already noting how it was by the grace in Yeshua that others were saved, as seen here, yet there was discussion on how grace impacts/affects all of us in the way Torah is applied. Everyone on this forum that is Messianic believes TOrah is to be followed--and within that, others have noted where Torah is to be celebrated. Where there is difference for many is what Torah outlines and what rules apply to whom...thus, the debates over levels of observance, some saying all the Laws given to the Hebrews were what ALL Gentiles were to follow while others say the Laws given to the Hebrews had sub-laws applying to Gentiles that did not apply to them--and others noting where there are differing dynamics in Christ (i.e. New Laws/New Torah) for us to follow that add upon that which already occurred. As Tishri noted, I think what would go a long way would be the needless accusations toward anyone disagreeing with others as somehow "hating Torah" since no one here is for that (to my knowledge) and simply agree to either disagree...or simply not talk to one another.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I am interested in knowing how you see a difference in those two titles - I see none.

Would be interested as well...

 

[Avodat]

Shalom to you too, David;

The answer seems to be the one most resisted. Make a forum for Hebrew Christians. Not that there aren't Messianics of Jewish descent. There are. They belong here. But those Christians of Jewish descent (determined by their professed beliefs) should have their own forum OR should choose the Christian denomination that most closely aligns with their beliefs. Seems simple.

Bridge building is something that is done between groups with doctrinal differences, not usually considered within a faith group. That's how I understand it anyway. We wouldn't need to consider it in this context if things were a little different.

Blessings,

The real problem is how can any of the fora be 'policed' effectively. If we could work that out we wouldn't need any extra fora!

 

[Tishri1]

Hi Tish,

I know why you say you are here. And I have no reason to doubt your intentions. But some of us feel you might not have a clear understanding of our perspective. I am not concerned that you are only here to stop the name calling. I am concerned that you even perceive it as name calling.

The problem seems to occur when those among us that are Messianic in name only, debate and teach from a mainstream Christian perspective. I'm not talking about varying degrees of Torah observance here. I'm talking about anyone that teaches Mainstream Christian doctrine as Messianic Judaism. There is a difference. You will know them by their fruit. Clearly identifying these individuals should be a priority. Accurate identification isn't name calling. It's just stating the facts.

Concerning my remarks about the Mods, forgive me for not being clear. I have said this in different ways before. And in exchanges in PMs with some, I have the impression that I am not the only one that feels this way. The bias I am speaking of is much more subtle than being actively anti-Torah. It is the kind of bias that affects perception. I don't think it intentional.

For instance, some Mods do not see the offence against the Torah observant because what they are reading seems perfectly normal to them. They are overwhelmed and in a hurry. What they read is within a degree or two of what they have heard from the pulpit all their lives. In other words, no warning bells or red flags are triggered. On the other hand they read a complaint that seems like name calling and it is perceived as pejorative rather than objective. In my mind, there is a notable difference between mainstream Christianity and Messianic Judaism. Most of us in this forum are attuned to those differences. Most from outside are not.

I realize that what I said sounds harsh. I am truly sorry if I offended. These Mods are overworked and only human. This is a very difficult situation and my hat is off to them. But when you are down in the trenches and you can't even discuss your understanding of scripture for all the sniping - you get a little punchy. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear in the beginning. I'm not blaming the Mods. I'm just trying to be objective.

As far as what I said to David, I apologized, admitted my fault and asked his forgiveness. I too hope that you will forgive me my frustration.

Love you,

You have to know I'm not mad and I do understand the strong feelings in here, that's why I think we should have a few points of understanding in here so we can all get along. We know that splitting forums up has never been the answer, as every time we attempt to segregate our group we kill it's existence. What works is when folks try to accept each others individuality knowing that our own is respected too. We aren't here to preach to the choir, that's boring and that is the result of segregation...But we are not here to wrestle with our enemies all day either, we need to know our threads wont be high jacked into debate and grounded and locked every time we present a topic that is controversial.

Fact is we have to protect the observance of Torah in MJ
But we also have to protect the different levels of observance and not liable folks as not being MJ if they have very little observance. Christian isn't a dirty word, and neither is grace , but the way it's used by creating a divisive label for folks who don't look exactly the way we expect an MJ to look like, it becomes offensive. We need to respect folks who are here despite how observant they are.

What can we do to spread shalom in here?

Sent from my iPad using CF God Bless You

 

[Chaplain David]

Would be interested as well...

Hospital chaplaining has to do with meeting the immediate spiritual needs of the patient, helping them cope, includes a different kind of counseling because of illness --- pastoring however has preaching. Same calling, different tasks. Hospital chaplains also do more grief counseling and being will those who are dying and their families. There is also the after death time helping families. Pastors are preaching, running education programs, maintaining the church, supporting their congregations in other ways. Hospital chaplains spend their time with patients and hospital staff who also need help sometimes. It is a privilege for sure.

 

[Avodat]

Hospital chaplaining has to do with meeting the immediate spiritual needs of the patient, helping them cope, includes a different kind of counseling because of illness --- pastoring however has preaching. Same calling, different tasks. Hospital chaplains also do more grief counseling and being will those who are dying and their families. There is also the after death time helping families. It is a privilege for sure.

I have been both a sessional Chaplain and an emergency Chaplain - whilst being in a full-time pastorate. You have answered a question I did not ask . I asked what distinction you see between the titles 'Minister' and 'Pastor' as I see no difference.

 

[Tishri1]

Tish has a clear understanding of our perspective. She is indeed one of us. Yes there are many if not most of the mods who don't understand the uniqueness of our forum, but there are a few that desire to understand and as we can see by this thread want to help.
Good grief we can't even figure out who we are sometimes, can you imagine how hard it is for the mods who have to put out fires in all the forums, let alone ours.
This is the time for all of us to resist picking at each other and ban together to create a forum where we all feel safe and where we can stand together. Think elephant herd. To protect one, they will circle that one facing out towards the threat.
That's what I think we were trying to do with our latest "issue". Problem is we end up scuffling with each other to see who's in charge.
Sorry for the rambling. It's late.

Ani thank you, I realize I'm far to buzy behind the scenes that some don't even know me well here, but I am here for you, and I have been reading if not posting a lot. I came to MJ reading only a year before I actually posted my first post. With in a year of posting I was asked by the then exec team to be a mod, so unfortunately I was swept into the background very quickly, but I can assure you that all staff is here for you all, seeking keep a peaceful place for you all to fellowship

Sent from my iPad using CF God Bless You

 

[aniello]

We are entitled to our feelings and also to express them. But under which spiritual principle can this distrust be justified when none of us have done anything to earn or deserve the distrust? I can honestly say that everyone here from staff is here to do our best to help this forum as it has had some getting along problems and mudslinging? Shalom.

If I ever had much Protestant exposure it was decades ago at North Phoenix Baptist Church, at the time pastored by Dr. Richard A. Jackson, a very dynamic and decent soul winner. For the most part I remember the experience with much warm memories.

I had hoped that perhaps yourself and I could explore a few questions which I still wonder about as it might pertain to SBC perceptions of Jews in general as is presently extant. To my perception that potential opportunity has been obviated.

Now as to my remark to the specific person(singular) I was addressing which was, as best as I can recall, as I am very computer challenged and age is hampering my eyesight somewhat: "I can honestly and transparently say I don't trust you." That was addressed specifically and singularly to the specific person whose post I quoted.

Wow, this is an aside. My wife just showed me, at the very bottom of this area where ya compose your own posts, a button at the very bottom of this thing where you can see all the past posts, I couldn't see that before, it is very faint gray or white on my machine.

So I see in my past post that you refer to I mention yourself, Pdudgeon and Mark, as I recall, in passing. No, at the time my distrust was not referenced to any I above mentioned, although one of them is on the raw edge with me from a far past post, but I'll not say whom, don't ask. My distrust is with the one I singularly quoted. I expresssed my distrust of that person months ago, previously, ina thread somewhat similar to this one, for a similar reason. What I said is not to condemn that person, simply, I am merely expressing my impression, right down to the very center of my ulcerated gut. I would be surprized if I don't turn your gut a bit, after all I am a stubborn old opinionated "breed"-"yid", the latter being of S'phardic Italian/Spanish genetic flukeatude. So much for picking one's parents beforehand.

Moving right along, permit me, if you would, please, to ask yourself a question, a very simple question to be answered forthrightly, I would think possible, from a straightforward read of simple scripture.

In Acts 1 and 2 we have the very very first group of Jewish people who come to belief that Y'shua is indeed the promised Messiah, then, now and forever. They also have received the Holy Spirit and witnessed His power to bring Jews(and quite possibly some righteous Gentiles) to faith through the propagation of the gospel through Peter. Restricting to this time frame, specifically, is it your belief that these referenced Jews were sufficiently and thoroughly saved?

Mat 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.


I honestly care to hear your answer, under the constraints of the words of Jesus, Our Saviour and King.

Thank you.

 

[Chaplain David]

I have been both a sessional Chaplain and an emergency Chaplain - whilst being in a full-time pastorate. You have answered a question I did not ask .I asked what distinction you see between the titles 'Minister' and 'Pastor' as I see no difference.

But I answered it the best I could. Maybe adding to it the absence of a church and church family is another thing that makes our jobs (hospital chaplains) different and that we are full time in hospitals (as our energy allows).

 

[Chaplain David]

Ani thank you, I realize I'm far to buzy behind the scenes that some don't even know me well here, but I am here for you, and I have been reading if not posting a lot. I came to MJ reading only a year before I actually posted my first post. With in a year of posting I was asked by the then exec team to be a mod, so unfortunately I was swept into the background very quickly, but I can assure you that all staff is here for you all, seeking keep a peaceful place for you all to fellowship

Sent from my iPad using CF God Bless You

Amen

 

[Avodat]

But I answered it the best I could. Maybe adding to it the absence of a church and church family is another thing that makes our jobs (hospital chaplains) different and that we are full time in hospitals (as our energy allows).

Right, so you are a Minister or Pastor, serving in a hospital as a Chaplain. If you have been ordained in the Baptist Church then I would expect you to hold either of those titles. Even if you do not have a pastorate in which to serve it does not mean you are not a Minister or Pastor because that is what you do - you minister to, or pastor, the patients and staff.

That is why I could not understand your use of the distinction in titles, unless you are a Lay Chaplain.