Staff and Member discussion thread.

[Tishri1]

Hi,

This is a report free thread.

We need to discuss some resent issues with some debating going on between members that is directly against the establish MJ SOP, regarding Torah, and also the name calling going on towards those who have been debating Torah.

This is a reminder to those who are less Torah observant to not disrupt threads of folks who are more Torah observant than you.

And this is a reminder to those folks who are more Torah observant not to call those members who are less Torah observant grace only Christians if they self identify as Messianic Jews or Gentiles.

Thoughts?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Thanks for making the thread, Sister T


I think what you offered is more than reasonable for all to agree with/support. If people are able to agree to disagree agreeably and let each other discuss---or do as you noted when it came to taking threads for specific discussions to the forums designed for them---it could go well. Sadly, that has not been honored...as many noted long ago in regards to the forums being set up and you noting where others could take certain coversations.

The most immediate thing that many have noted is the MJ SOP and seeing whether or not it is truly the standard, as the mods/other Messianic members agreed upon when it was created. For if there is not any real consideration given to truly honoring it and one another, then it is really a waste of time trying to say anything should be considered as standard. If it is a matter where all do as they wish, that's cool to do. IMHO, it'd require serious addressment to others wishing to go to war with one another when it comes to not allowing for diversity.

If others continue to make comments to one another of "grace only" believer--or say that other Gentiles wishing to live out the best they can of Jewish ideology are "wannabe Jews", one would think that needs to either result in suspensions or warnings/serious moderation. But that is an extreme if things cannot be kept in line.

If others continue to make comments to others saying they're not REAL Messianics and saying they don't care what the Messianic Statement of Purpose is, that is really going against the forum rules plainly---and it'd seem that perhaps the best way to deal with it is to show that disregarding that would mean that one may need to reconsider if they wish to be considered Messianic according to what Christian Forums is about. It's already a big issue when other Messianics are continually denouncing Christianity--and the mods have warned that continuning to do so will lead to severe moderation. But if it's never addressed on smaller levels, I wonder why many would even expect large change...

 

[etZion]

Hi,

This is a report free thread.

We need to discuss some resent issues with some debating going on between members that is directly against the establish MJ SOP, regarding Torah, and also the name calling going on towards those who have been debating Torah.

This is a reminder to those who are less Torah observant to not disrupt threads of folks who are more Torah observant than you.

And this is a reminder to those folks who are more Torah observant not to call those members who are less Torah observant grace only Christians if they self identify as Messianic Jews or Gentiles.

Thoughts?

Hey Tishri,

I am afraid this is the norm on whatever forum there is, and generally both groups have to be dismantled, but none the less, it is great to see some discussion on the issues.

Concerning 'disruptive', what would be considered disruptive versus a debatable subject?

 

[Tishri1]

Hi EZ, I hear ya, let's keep this discussion focused on the two main points I addressed in the OP though ok? One being debating against Torah and the other, name calling, or calling folks who identify themselves as MJ non-MJs

Thanks for making the thread, Sister T


I think what you offered is more than reasonable for all to agree with/support. If people are able to agree to disagree agreeably and let each other discuss---or do as you noted when it came to taking threads for specific discussions to the forums designed for them---it could go well. Sadly, that has not been honored...as many noted long ago in regards to the forums being set up and you noting where others could take certain coversations.

The most immediate thing that many have noted is the MJ SOP and seeing whether or not it is truly the standard, as the mods/other Messianic members agreed upon when it was created. For if there is not any real consideration given to truly honoring it and one another, then it is really a waste of time trying to say anything should be considered as standard. If it is a matter where all do as they wish, that's cool to do. IMHO, it'd require serious addressment to others wishing to go to war with one another when it comes to not allowing for diversity.

If others continue to make comments to one another of "grace only" believer--or say that other Gentiles wishing to live out the best they can of Jewish ideology are "wannabe Jews", one would think that needs to either result in suspensions or warnings/serious moderation. But that is an extreme if things cannot be kept in line.

If others continue to make comments to others saying they're not REAL Messianics and saying they don't care what the Messianic Statement of Purpose is, that is really going against the forum rules plainly---and it'd seem that perhaps the best way to deal with it is to show that disregarding that would mean that one may need to reconsider if they wish to be considered Messianic according to what Christian Forums is about. It's already a big issue when other Messianics are continually denouncing Christianity--and the mods have warned that continuning to do so will lead to severe moderation. But if it's never addressed on smaller levels, I wonder why many would even expect large change...

 

[anisavta]

We'll always have people coming in with differing opinions, theology and convictions. And for the most part we can dance around each other. However when people come in with an agenda that is clearly against our SOP and will not back down or those who try to intimidate with threats and name calling, I think it's time for action. We have General Theology for those whose SOP is different and want to dabate. We do need a measure of protection against trolls and predators.
We also have the two subforums for those more or less Torah observant to feel save within their viewpoints.

 

[Tishri1]

Thank you etZion,
MJ has survived this before, so yes Your observation is pretty accurate, but so far we have never had to dismantle , we have a great staff praying for you guys every week and we are all about bringing shalom to this group no matter how diverse the membership.

A Disruption would be anything that purposefully seeks to upset the harmony in a thread or forum......One thing that is identifiable to MJ is Torah Submission and so therefore campaigning against Torah Observance would be considered a disruption, as well as using derogatory names that seek to lable someone as not MJ would be a disruption too.

Hey Tishri,

I am afraid this is the norm on whatever forum there is, and generally both groups have to be dismantled, but none the less, it is great to see some discussion on the issues.

Concerning 'disruptive', what would be considered disruptive versus a debatable subject?

 

[mishkan]

Hi EZ, I hear ya, let's keep this discussion focused on the two main points I addressed in the OP though ok? One being debating against Torah and the other, name calling, or calling folks who identify themselves as MJ non-MJs

Tishri,

I understand the desire for unity. Unity lies at the heart of comm"unity". And I am in full-on agreement that we should not be seeing anti-Torah argumentation, since the Torah is the root and core of all God's self-revelation to humanity.

However, there are a couple of details that I think need to be kept in mind regarding the ideas of "argument" or "name-calling"...

1. Unity does not mean conformity.

Differences of opinion (arguments) are not always bad things. There can be arguments "for the sake of Heaven" and arguments "NOT for the sake of Heaven". The first type is illustrated by the ongoing debates between Hillel and Shammai, which often became quite heated. The second type of argument is modeled by Korach's rebellion against Moses.
​

2. Labels.

Just like it is not wrong to identify a Christian flying the MJ icon, I don't see how it can be wrong to identify a set of beliefs by their proper appellation. The Messianic Movement has history, which demonstrates that the early Jewish Believers, acting by and for Christian missionary organizations, referred to themselves as "Hebrew Christians". That is beyond debate.

The title "Messianic" only gained real traction in the mid-1980's, as Jewish and Gentile Believers in the movement began to increasingly identify as part of the Jewish community. This is also clearly documented.

Basically, words have meaning. If one holds views that are consistent with Hebrew-Christianity, then one is a Hebrew Christian if Jewish; or just a Christian, if Gentile. If one identifies with the Jewish community, and approaches culture and theology from a Jewish perspective, then one is Messianic. This isn't name-calling, it is dealing with reality. Co-opting someone else's label doesn't change the meaning of the word.
​

That's just my 2 cents on the thread. Not trying to argue with anybody, but just point out that what seems mean-spirited or angry might sometimes just be passion and/or factual statements. Not everyone likes hearing the facts, and it sometimes leads to some tense moments. But that is often the very moment when God turns the lights on.

Avoiding argumentation because it seems more peaceful that way can sometimes parallel the well-meaning child who cut the cocoon for the poor, struggling butterfly, and thereby killed the butterfly.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

The truth is the name calling and such should be addressed but the truth is there really isn't a standard in Messianic Judaism. The MJAA for example focus isn't Torah observance which doesn't mean Torah lessness. Their focus seems to be different than UMJC as an example. What's going on in the thread is everyone is trying to establish their own Messianic Judaism.

Or most likely putting in inputs that reflect the Messianic Judaism they are affiliated with.

And as we can see their isn't a standard.

 

[mishkan]

everyone is trying to establish their own Messianic Judaism.

Interesting way to put it.

Many seem to ignore the fact that even traditional Judaism, itself, is not monolithic. There will always be variants and arguments within all flavors of Judaism, including Messianic.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Hi EZ, I hear ya, let's keep this discussion focused on the two main points I addressed in the OP though ok? One being debating against Torah and the other, name calling, or calling folks who identify themselves as MJ non-MJs

Hey Tish,

What was said was focused on the two main points, for what is it that is said of those who others deem to be Non-Messianic? The term that comes up often is "CHRISTIAN"...among other things. As it concerns the name-calling, are you asking for suggestions on how to address it--or saying that it will NOT be tolerated any further whenever others have differing levels of Torah observance?

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Hey Tish,

What was said was focused on the two main points, for what is it that is said of those who others deem to be Non-Messianic? The term that comes up often is "CHRISTIAN"...among other things. As it concerns the name-calling, are you asking for suggestions on how to address it--or saying that it will NOT be tolerated any further whenever others have differing levels of Torah observance?

That's a good question. It's obvious there is no standard in Messianic Judaism. Some organizations are Torah observant and that's their focus, some are focused primarily on Yeshua which doesn't mean Torah lessness, some are not Torah observant, some are 2 house etc. But all associate with Messianic Judaism. I like alot Dr F stuff but he's a dispensationalist but he's a Messianic Jew.

 

[Avodat]

I agree with the SoP, in principle, but some of the detail does not get my agreement because of the way it is written.

I have suggested to the Torah posters that Torah debate should go to the new forum, but no success, I'm afraid - people want to hang out here plus - some debates that are not intended as Torah debates, end up being just that. How do we deal with them?

And while we are on it we are getting the usual number of visitors who do not even know the SoP is there and meant to be read - don't think I've met one yet that read it before posting, and even some staff question why these people are being challenged!!! And when you point out their restricted use of the forum as non-Messianics, you'd think the world would end, with some. I have suggested many times that where it says: 'A forum for Messianic Jews and Gentiles' it should also say: 'Visitors to this forum must read the SoP before posting here'. Just 11 words to remind people to look at our SoP before breaking in among us. Surely that could be done - that at least gives us some leverage (or levverage for you guys) to deal with such problems (though some of our posters do not bother, it has to be said, and freely enter into debate with non-Messianics).

 

[Gxg (G²)]

And while we are on it we are getting the usual of visitors who do not even know the SoP is there and meant to be read - don't think I've met one yet that read it before posting, and even some staff question why these people are being challenged!!! And when you point out their restricted use of the forum as non-Messianics, you'd think the world would end, with some. I have suggested many times that where it says: 'A forum for Messianic Jews and Gentiles' it should also say: 'Visitors to this forum must read the SoP before posting here'. Just 11 words to remind people to look at our SoP before breaking in among us. Surely that could be done - that at least gives us some leverage (or levverage for you guys) to deal with such problems (though some of our posters do not bother, it has to be said, and freely enter into debate with non-Messianics).

So true...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

That's a good question. It's obvious there is no standard in Messianic Judaism. Some organizations are Torah observant and that's their focus, some are focused primarily on Yeshua which doesn't mean Torah lessness, some are not Torah observant, some are 2 house etc. But all associate with Messianic Judaism. I like alot Dr F stuff but he's a dispensationalist but he's a Messianic Jew.

Good points. I think that for everyone here, the reality is that the owners of Christian forums worked with other Messianics early on to make the SOP to guide the boards. It can be easy to forget to that none of us has a RIGHT to be here/do as we wish. For there are rules...and as they noted that their vision of MJism that they agreed with was that of the MJAA. If others don't agree with what the SOP is based upon, that's cool...but I think it can come off as disrespectful to say that one disagrees and is going to use the forums to share whatever they wish since where they're at in MJism is what they agree to. There are other forums and other places with SOP that may line up with what they want--and others who agreed with those have gone there. But it seems off to go into any MJish forum and demand that the forum suit what they desire...as if the forum was made to suit all who were in every camp of MJism.


If the staff/moderators and Policy Makers make a buffet for others to eat from that has certain foods approved, it'd seem odd to go into the kitchen where it's made and demand special food be made when there are other resturants that can cater to that. And I say that in light of how many not for what the SOP says in agreement with the MJAA ...in the name of "diversity"...will later switch in many conversations by saying that all other Messianics not agreeing with them are either out-dated or don't have the right to say they're "Messianic...." and then claim the rules when they themselves go counter what was already stated.

If we're going to be diverse, cool. Let's be diverse, live and let live. However, if we don't really mean it (as evidenced by the continual attacking of one another), then drop the label altogether.

 

[anisavta]

And while we are on it we are getting the usual number of visitors who do not even know the SoP is there and meant to be read - don't think I've met one yet that read it before posting, and even some staff question why these people are being challenged!!! And when you point out their restricted use of the forum as non-Messianics, you'd think the world would end, with some. I have suggested many times that where it says: 'A forum for Messianic Jews and Gentiles' it should also say: 'Visitors to this forum must read the SoP before posting here'. Just 11 words to remind people to look at our SoP before breaking in among us. Surely that could be done - that at least gives us some leverage (or levverage for you guys) to deal with such problems (though some of our posters do not bother, it has to be said, and freely enter into debate with non-Messianics).

Is there a way to link the SOP somewhere visible for all to see - with only one click and it would take the poster to the SOP. Also, it seems that all someone has to do is choose an icon and it's theirs no matter if they agree to the SOP or not. We have posters flying the MJ colors that several posts in we all know they are not MJs, but they choose it so they can debate. Not sure how that could be rectified.

 

[Avodat]

Is there a way to link the SOP somewhere visible for all to see - with only one click and it would take the poster to the SOP. Also, it seems that all someone has to do is choose an icon and it's theirs no matter if they agree to the SOP or not. We have posters flying the MJ colors that several posts in we all know they are not MJs, but they choose it so they can debate. Not sure how that could be rectified.

I have mentioned this a few times, both in PM's to Mods and publically. All it needs is to say that icon change, across the board, can only be carried out on application to a Mod on the thread the poster is currently posting on. Mods could review why they want to change - people do not change religion, normally, as often as some here change their icons! The Messianic icon is a flag of convenience for many non-regular posters.

 

[Yahudim]

Hi Tish!

I suppose that I am certainly guilty of the name calling as it applies to the 'grace only' bunch. But I am confused, because this is the same term that they use to describe their doctrine! They will tell you that they are grace only and then scream foul if you describe them in the same terms. To me, it seems hypocritical, yet they still get offended. What am I to do?

So are we to differentiate members based on ethnicity, race and loosely applied and contentious labels as opposed to doctrine? That seems a little extreme. However, there are those people that were once say... Roman Catholic. They claim a newly discovered Jewish bloodline, call themselves Messianic, but bring nothing but Catechism to the forum. What is that??

The same can be said of people that are Jewish in both birth and upbringing. But they convert to Christianity, leaving the doctrines of Judaism behind and bring straight Christian doctrine and a blatant anti-Torah bias against Gentiles to the forum. Again, what is that?

Seems to me that the very people that want to use their own labels on us are the ones clamoring the loudest when they get labeled - and in their own terms.

On another topic, so the majority of the participants in this faith group now have to go to a sub-forum to debate their beliefs? Because in the poll I started based on that one question, there was a 5 to 1 margin for Torah observance. Seems a little weird.

 

[Jerushabelle]

I have mentioned this a few times, both in PM's to Mods and publically. All it needs is to say that icon change, across the board, can only be carried out on application to a Mod on the thread the poster is currently posting on. Mods could review why they want to change - people do not change religion, normally, as often as some here change their icons! The Messianic icon is a flag of convenience for many non-regular posters.

As for me, the Messianic icon has never been a matter of convenience. As you can see, I am now flying it but only after a lot of prayer and consideration and argument in the MSC. What it has been is a matter of conviction as I do not believe that the Torah scroll represents all Messianics equally and I have struggled greatly with adopting it because I don't hold Torah higher than all other Scripture or higher than what Yeshua did for me on the cross. That doesn't make me or my belief anti-Torah. Torah is foundational in my faith but as a Christian, it's nothing without B'rit Hadashah just as Israel is nothing without Jesus/Yeshua. As far as I'm concerned, I have no problem with anyone's level of Torah observance or non-observance. I have a problem with legalism in Christianity, period and I have a problem with people putting forth non-Scripture as Scripture. I feel that all Christians are accountable to God for their witness and all Christians are my Brothers and Sisters.

 

[ContraMundum]

The truth is the name calling and such should be addressed but the truth is there really isn't a standard in Messianic Judaism. The MJAA for example focus isn't Torah observance which doesn't mean Torah lessness. Their focus seems to be different than UMJC as an example. What's going on in the thread is everyone is trying to establish their own Messianic Judaism.

Or most likely putting in inputs that reflect the Messianic Judaism they are affiliated with.

And as we can see their isn't a standard.

Exactly. One man's Torah observance and understanding is another's "anti-Torah post". It's utterly frustrating to watch and post in such a petty environment.

Interesting way to put it.

Many seem to ignore the fact that even traditional Judaism, itself, is not monolithic. There will always be variants and arguments within all flavors of Judaism, including Messianic.

Then lead by example and be more tolerant of other understandings.

 

[ContraMundum]

I have mentioned this a few times, both in PM's to Mods and publically. All it needs is to say that icon change, across the board, can only be carried out on application to a Mod on the thread the poster is currently posting on. Mods could review why they want to change - people do not change religion, normally, as often as some here change their icons! The Messianic icon is a flag of convenience for many non-regular posters.

Exactly! I would add many regular posters too.