Hello David, I am open to suggestion. However, my point is this: There are a certain group of people. They engage in negative behavior. They coordinate their behavior as a group. They subscribe to a particular doctrine. You would like us to point out the behavior, just without saying who it is, what they are doing or why - due in part to the negative connotations it would have. I guess my question is how would you do this? Should we just use underscore characters and redact all of the pertinent information, like a secret government report? David, there are times when the damage being done outweighs the potential for negative connotations.
My indicating that Christians are engaging in this behavior is not an indictment of all Christians, only those involved. But my description of a doctrine that is almost exclusively Christian is not so easy to ignore or to couch in other terms. I don't call them 'skells' or 'dirtbags' to use a couple of pejorative terms from popular TV. I describe them as Christian, grace only, brother and sister. You aren't leaving me a lot of options.
The majority in this faith group is Torah observant to one degree or another (over 5 to 1 by the last poll), but Torah observant Messianics are BY FAR the minority at CF. We have already been marginalized to a sub-forum in order to discuss Torah observance. What next? Now we should ignore those that seek to reverse a century of progress in the Messianic movement, simply because the Mods and Admins share their anti-Torah bias? That doesn't seem fair.
You choose a moniker. That's what we'll call 'em. But it is their behavior, not the name that carries the negative connotation. What has been done here, in this faith group, is the functional equivalent of lumping Pentecostals and Roman Catholics into the same forum and then deciding that they can't use their denominational designations to refer to each other because it might sound derogatory. Let me tell you brother, there will be fireworks every time you have one group of people actively seeking to change the beliefs of another. So my question becomes, why (no matter their ethnic or cultural background) are, what are functionally grace only Christians, lumped in with Torah observant Messianics? I'll tell you. Because when this Messianic movement went a different way than the Hebrew Christians back in the '80s, the Hebrew Christians decided that they wanted the name Messianic too. To understand how this has affected us today, you must realize that these Hebrew Christians that sit as 'elders' of these so called Messianic organizations, are products of Christian 'the law has been done away with' missionary organizations. They are by doctrine: Christian.
The problem isn't that we don't like Christians; we love Christians. Most of us were once Christians. Most of our friends and family are Christians. The same can be said of our love for the Jewish people. What we don't like, is allowing any people come here and LABEL us, TELL US how to believe, WHAT to believe and HOW to act before ELOHIM. That is the problem, not because we identify them or their behavior by name.
Everyone is so understanding of the Jewish people's fear of assimilation. Believe me, Torah observant Messianics get it. But for some reason, you don't recognize the same process here. All over the English speaking web, assimilating or expelling Torah observant Messianics seems to be the agenda. We are the ones being marginalized. We are the targets of CONSTANT bombardment of the grace only doctrine, replacement theology and anti-Torah bias most of us tried to leave behind when we joined this movement.
Every couple of months, for years, the same discussions are held, the same problems arise, the same non-solutions are considered. If some of us seem desparate, you might want to ask yourself why. Because there are only three ways this can go and two of them are losses.
1) It can stay the same which is not a win. We will continue is strife and persecution by those that believe as you do.
2) We, the Torah observant and Israeli centric, can be expelled or forced to change our name (going with Qnts2's solution). Definitely not a win. Or
3) We can receive more than a passing tip of the hat for protection from the constant harassment of the doctrine police. That would be a win.
Most will say that the forum is diverse and that is good. I would agree. I like it this way. But until there is some control over who can qualify as a Messianic in this faith group, doctrinally as opposed to ethnically or racially or as a matter of convenience, we will continue to be assaulted and harassed. And we will continue to complain and in doing so, name our detractors.
But suggest away David. We are listening.
But I am confused, because this is the same term that they use to describe their doctrine! They will tell you that they are grace only and then scream foul if you describe them in the same terms. To me, it seems hypocritical, yet they still get offended. What am I to do?
