Staff and Member discussion thread.

[ContraMundum]

Hey Tish,

What was said was focused on the two main points, for what is it that is said of those who others deem to be Non-Messianic? The term that comes up often is "CHRISTIAN"...among other things. As it concerns the name-calling, are you asking for suggestions on how to address it--or saying that it will NOT be tolerated any further whenever others have differing levels of Torah observance?

Yes, "Christian" is used as a pejorative term by quite a few posters here. The irony is that it has the exact same meaning as "Messianic"

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Yes, "Christian" is used as a pejorative term by quite a few posters here. The irony is that it has the exact same meaning as "Messianic"

Considering the irony--and the fact that what often is argued about is no where near what the early believers ever debated on, it is a pity.

 

[anisavta]

So why not take away our distinction all together and just call us "another fringe Christian group" and be done with it. Is it so difficult to allow someone a distinction instead of a mishmash?
I just don't understand the desire of some to assimilate a Jewish believer into the Christian world instead of letting them keep their distinctions.
Contra you have embraced Christianity and for you it might work. But to deny another Jew and even a Gentile who identifies with the Jew the right to separate themselves from what they feel is offensive in Christianity is beyond me.

 

[Yahudim]

For some the term Christian might be perceived as pejorative, but is intended, at least lin my case, as showing a distinction between two belief systems. For most Christian believe that the Torah has been done away with. It is simply a particularly Christian doctrine that I no longer accept. I think that is true for the majority of members in this 'faith group' here. No offence intended.

 

[Chaplain David]

Hi,

This is a report free thread.

We need to discuss some resent issues with some debating going on between members that is directly against the establish MJ SOP, regarding Torah, and also the name calling going on towards those who have been debating Torah.

This is a reminder to those who are less Torah observant to not disrupt threads of folks who are more Torah observant than you.

And this is a reminder to those folks who are more Torah observant not to call those members who are less Torah observant grace only Christians if they self identify as Messianic Jews or Gentiles.

Thoughts?

I'll help but I'm getting to know people and about MJ. I'm in learning, fellowshipping mode. None of us (except you so far) that may be a part of this helping team have the privilege of being a member of the congregation or any kind of knowledge base. I am looking forward to what the members have to say about the subject.

Shalom.

 

[Avodat]

For some the term Christian might be perceived as pejorative, but is intended, at least lin my case, as showing a distinction between two belief systems. For most Christian believe that the Torah has been done away with. It is simply a particularly Christian doctrine that I no longer accept. I think that is true for the majority of members in this 'faith group' here. No offence intended.

I'm not sure it is a doctrine, as such, but yes most Christians take that view. It is all a part of Replacement Theology which has been taught to Christian ministers for more years than I care to think about; it is not easy to change decades of error! However, it will NEVER get changed as long as people attack the view rather than peacefully and patiently work at changing it. When did any of you seek to do that instead of running away from the error and resort to screaming at a distance? Before you shout that I'm being unfair - give some thought to how many times I've had to remind posters that CF doesn't allow some of the ways in which you guys treat Christianity, or to ask that Christians all over the world not be tarred with the same brush as some American Christians who seem to act rather differently than the rest of the world? And that's just on the few threads I join - hate to think what it might be like on others.

 

[Chaplain David]

Thanks for making the thread, Sister T


I think what you offered is more than reasonable for all to agree with/support. If people are able to agree to disagree agreeably and let each other discuss---or do as you noted when it came to taking threads for specific discussions to the forums designed for them---it could go well. Sadly, that has not been honored...as many noted long ago in regards to the forums being set up and you noting where others could take certain coversations.

The most immediate thing that many have noted is the MJ SOP and seeing whether or not it is truly the standard, as the mods/other Messianic members agreed upon when it was created. For if there is not any real consideration given to truly honoring it and one another, then it is really a waste of time trying to say anything should be considered as standard. If it is a matter where all do as they wish, that's cool to do. IMHO, it'd require serious addressment to others wishing to go to war with one another when it comes to not allowing for diversity.

If others continue to make comments to one another of "grace only" believer--or say that other Gentiles wishing to live out the best they can of Jewish ideology are "wannabe Jews", one would think that needs to either result in suspensions or warnings/serious moderation. But that is an extreme if things cannot be kept in line.

If others continue to make comments to others saying they're not REAL Messianics and saying they don't care what the Messianic Statement of Purpose is, that is really going against the forum rules plainly---and it'd seem that perhaps the best way to deal with it is to show that disregarding that would mean that one may need to reconsider if they wish to be considered Messianic according to what Christian Forums is about. It's already a big issue when other Messianics are continually denouncing Christianity--and the mods have warned that continuning to do so will lead to severe moderation. But if it's never addressed on smaller levels, I wonder why many would even expect large change...

Good Points

 

[Chaplain David]

Tishri,

I understand the desire for unity. Unity lies at the heart of comm"unity". And I am in full-on agreement that we should not be seeing anti-Torah argumentation, since the Torah is the root and core of all God's self-revelation to humanity.

However, there are a couple of details that I think need to be kept in mind regarding the ideas of "argument" or "name-calling"...

1. Unity does not mean conformity.

Differences of opinion (arguments) are not always bad things. There can be arguments "for the sake of Heaven" and arguments "NOT for the sake of Heaven". The first type is illustrated by the ongoing debates between Hillel and Shammai, which often became quite heated. The second type of argument is modeled by Korach's rebellion against Moses.
​

2. Labels.

Just like it is not wrong to identify a Christian flying the MJ icon, I don't see how it can be wrong to identify a set of beliefs by their proper appellation. The Messianic Movement has history, which demonstrates that the early Jewish Believers, acting by and for Christian missionary organizations, referred to themselves as "Hebrew Christians". That is beyond debate.

The title "Messianic" only gained real traction in the mid-1980's, as Jewish and Gentile Believers in the movement began to increasingly identify as part of the Jewish community. This is also clearly documented.

Basically, words have meaning. If one holds views that are consistent with Hebrew-Christianity, then one is a Hebrew Christian if Jewish; or just a Christian, if Gentile. If one identifies with the Jewish community, and approaches culture and theology from a Jewish perspective, then one is Messianic. This isn't name-calling, it is dealing with reality. Co-opting someone else's label doesn't change the meaning of the word.
​

That's just my 2 cents on the thread. Not trying to argue with anybody, but just point out that what seems mean-spirited or angry might sometimes just be passion and/or factual statements. Not everyone likes hearing the facts, and it sometimes leads to some tense moments. But that is often the very moment when God turns the lights on.

Avoiding argumentation because it seems more peaceful that way can sometimes parallel the well-meaning child who cut the cocoon for the poor, struggling butterfly, and thereby killed the butterfly.

Debating with proof or experience in accordance within the behavioral standards that the rules provide is sometimes a difficult thing to do. In my experience, lopping off those parts of our replies, and this statement is being made to whoever does it, that address the post adversely is something we strive for in every forum. Example: I do not agree with your version of MJ because of x, y, z. I don't know why you troublemakers always have to spoil everything. The first sentence was obviously within the limits. The second was a personal remark (flaming) that was unnecessary. Personal, denigrating, demean, flaming remarks are always unnecessary, they add nothing positive to what is being discussed, and just fan the flames of unnecessary and avoidable fires. As I said, this is just an example. No one is being singled out. God bless you and Shalom.

 

[Chaplain David]

So true...

There is nothing wrong with writing, "Welcome, but that statement (notice how I'm not making a you statement) is not in line with our SOP. Please read the SOP. It lists important aspects of this forum that everyone needs to know and use. Thank you and Shalom."

 

[Chaplain David]

Good points. I think that for everyone here, the reality is that the owners of Christian forums worked with other Messianics early on to make the SOP to guide the boards. It can be easy to forget to that none of us has a RIGHT to be here/do as we wish. For there are rules...and as they noted that their vision of MJism that they agreed with was that of the MJAA. If others don't agree with what the SOP is based upon, that's cool...but I think it can come off as disrespectful to say that one disagrees and is going to use the forums to share whatever they wish since where they're at in MJism is what they agree to. There are other forums and other places with SOP that may line up with what they want--and others who agreed with those have gone there. But it seems off to go into any MJish forum and demand that the forum suit what they desire...as if the forum was made to suit all who were in every camp of MJism.


If the staff/moderators and Policy Makers make a buffet for others to eat from that has certain foods approved, it'd seem odd to go into the kitchen where it's made and demand special food be made when there are other resturants that can cater to that. And I say that in light of how many not for what the SOP says in agreement with the MJAA ...in the name of "diversity"...will later switch in many conversations by saying that all other Messianics not agreeing with them are either out-dated or don't have the right to say they're "Messianic...." and then claim the rules when they themselves go counter what was already stated.

If we're going to be diverse, cool. Let's be diverse, live and let live. However, if we don't really mean it (as evidenced by the continual attacking of one another), then drop the label altogether.

Great analogies

 

[Avodat]

There is nothing wrong with writing, "Welcome, but that statement (notice how I'm not making a you statement) is not in line with our SOP. Please read the SOP. It lists important aspects of this forum that everyone needs to know and use. Thank you and Shalom."

But the SoP, Rules and Forum specific rules do not allow other things - these should be understood before a person enters the thread. Most comments are tailor-made to the situation - so if someone (non-MJ) comes on here and starts to teach without being a Messianic they need to told that only Messianics can teach on these fora. Or if someone (non-MJ) comes on and starts debating, they need to be told that they may not debate. Both need to be advised that they should read the SoP for more information. Other Mods have agreed this system. However, we usually get protests because other fora on CF do not seem to have the same rules as here. When they have been told that they may not do A,B, or C (or even if we put it positively - you may only...) they simply go and change their icon, claim to be fully Messianic (or to have a Jewish bloodline somewhere in their ancestry) and just carry on posting anyway. This is the real problem here, as far as I can see in the few months I've been here. If we take up your suggested one-size-fits-all statement the obvious retort will be a demand for an explanation as to what is wrong with their post(s) and then we are back to debating with them why the rules are there etc etc etc. Then we get to the point where they are criticising CF (also not allowed) and we have to defend the rules. Far better to just tell them straight off what the rules allow and do not allow and to refer them to the SoP. In either case, they'll then simply change their icon and be back again with whatever agenda they want and we can do little about it because, within minutes, they appear to have had a blinding flash from G_d and change their religion! I've tried both ways round - positive and negative - and the responses are usually in line with what I have said.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Debating with proof or experience in accordance within the behavioral standards that the rules provide is sometimes a difficult thing to do. In my experience, lopping off those parts of our replies, and this statement is being made to whoever does it, that address the post adversely is something we strive for in every forum. Example: I do not agree with your version of MJ because of x, y, z. I don't know why you troublemakers always have to spoil everything. The first sentence was obviously within the limits. The second was a personal remark (flaming) that was unnecessary. Personal, denigrating, demean, flaming remarks are always unnecessary, they add nothing positive to what is being discussed, and just fan the flames of unnecessary and avoidable fires. As I said, this is just an example. No one is being singled out. God bless you and Shalom.

Very good points. It's obvious that there are differing 'versions' of Messianic Judaism. As an example, I made a post in response to a specific member. Another member responded thinking I was addressing them in a way that I was saying they didn't know the scriptures. I didn't find an offense but I addressed it but I was like 'what's going on here?' I was wondering since my post was specifically directed it stirred up something in the individual who responded that wasn't directed too.

Versions there is certainly here. Even at least one or more orthodox Jewish Messianics.

I hate to use 'versions' but it's true. My version is product of environment.

 

[Chaplain David]

So why not take away our distinction all together and just call us "another fringe Christian group" and be done with it. Is it so difficult to allow someone a distinction instead of a mishmash?
I just don't understand the desire of some to assimilate a Jewish believer into the Christian world instead of letting them keep their distinctions.
Contra you have embraced Christianity and for you it might work. But to deny another Jew and even a Gentile who identifies with the Jew the right to separate themselves from what they feel is offensive in Christianity is beyond me.

Or we could all be as helpful and proactive as possible and try to rid our MJ forum of (or at least improve upon) the problems we have and make it better than it's ever been before. I do understand the frustration though. Shalom.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Or we could all be as helpful and proactive as possible and try to rid our MJ forum of (or at least improve upon) the problems we have and make it better than it's ever been before. I do understand the frustration though. Shalom.

I watched a great video and that everyone should watch that has to do with this.

Sermon - The Law of Moses

After you're done watching it, we can discuss it. The title is '
Must I keep the law of Moses?' Now take from it the positive from the video teaching. It's VERY good.

 

[Chaplain David]

For some the term Christian might be perceived as pejorative, but is intended, at least lin my case, as showing a distinction between two belief systems. For most Christian believe that the Torah has been done away with. It is simply a particularly Christian doctrine that I no longer accept. I think that is true for the majority of members in this 'faith group' here. No offence intended.

Hello Talmidim, I wonder if there is a better classification or designation or one even needs to be used at all. You know yourself that Jew has been used in negative ways and how utterly disgusting that is. I'm thinking none of us, should use Christian in negative ways either. One can say that about a lot of things. Shalom.

 

[Chaplain David]

I watched a great video and that everyone should watch that has to do with this.

Sermon - The Law of Moses

After you're done watching it, we can discuss it. The title is '
Must I keep the law of Moses?' Now take from it the positive from the video teaching. It's VERY good.

Thank you. I very much look forward to watching it.

Since this is a staff and member discussion with certain parameters set by our Advisor Tishri1, we may not be able to discuss it in this thread, however. But unless Tishri has objections, I'm sure a new thread could be started. Regardless and in any case, thank you.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Thank you. I very much look forward to watching it.

Since this is a staff and member discussion with certain parameters set by our Advisor Tishri1, we may not be able to discuss it in this thread, however. But unless Tishri has objections, I'm sure a new thread could be started. Regardless and in any case, thank you.

It has to do with the discussion and will help to shed some more light.

 

[Chaplain David]

It has to do with the discussion and will help to shed some more light.

I have no doubt but Tishri's input would be helpful. I will view it later today. Looking forward to it. Shalom.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I watched a great video and that everyone should watch that has to do with this.

Sermon - The Law of Moses
.

Good points that the video seems to offer...although curious as to why you enjoyed it/what you got from it.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

There is nothing wrong with writing, "Welcome, but that statement (notice how I'm not making a you statement) is not in line with our SOP. Please read the SOP. It lists important aspects of this forum that everyone needs to know and use. Thank you and Shalom."

I would think that asking what they base their views upon (i.e. articles, books, home church, friends, etc) is key, in addition to asking what others think (if aware) of MJism described in the SOP and directing others to what it says or what the stickys say when questions come up.