St Paul on Face Coverings

[Shrewd Manager]

It is not possible to reason with someone who indulges in such daft and daffy conspiracy theory as you.

Sorry to hear that, let's pray for each other.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

But be careful, he who trades liberty for security risks losing both.

Like being a citizen of a country, paying taxes And obeying laws in exchange for security, jobs, property management and the like ?

Who in earth hasn’t traded his “liberty” for security ?

Which of us is truly free of every obligation ?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Which of us is truly free of every obligation ?

Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's, as prisoners of Christ constrained by the blood of the Lamb, free indeed in the revelation of the truth and standing firm in faith.

 

[Strong in Him]

Is Paul not revealing something new about the purpose of Moses' face covering?

Not as I see it.
My reading of Exodus 34:33-35 is that after Moses had spent time with God, receiving the 10 commandments, his face literally shone. And it was so bright that he had to put a veil over his face so that his fellow Israelites, whom he was leading, could actually look at him.

The lesson for me there, personally, is that if you spend time with God you will reflect his glory.
As Paul says in v 18 - we all reflect the Lord's glory and are being changed in to the likeness of Jesus.
The nature of the face covering or how much of Moses' face it actually covered, is not the point.

That it was symbolic of the occlusion of God's glory by the law.

Maybe by the time of the NT; in the OT they would show themselves to be holy and prove they were God's people by keeping his law.

And we symbolically cast away the veil from our face that keeps us from seeing the shekinah glory and hearing the true gospel.

Yes; whatever your veil happens to be - legalism, prejudice, greed, pride etc.

So when Caesar imposes the rule of face covering by Roman law and in the name of security, does nothing sound in your conscience, in connection with Paul's revelation?

No.
Caesar hasn't imposed anything, he's dead; we're not under Roman law and wearing physical masks over our mouth and nose is not at all the same as Moses choosing to wear a veil over his whole face.
Moses did that out of consideration so that his fellow Israelites could look at him - not to keep out any germs.

The Protestant dream, sola scriptura, as if one can just put aside all the assumptions and unconscious agenda one has and just let the Bible speak for itself, with none but the HS as guide. Clearly it hasn't worked out that way. We need to be honest enough to admit that we all bring at least unconscious agenda to the text.

Well I'm sorry, but you clearly do.
Again, the point, for me, is that Moses saw God face to face and spent so long in his presence that his face shone. If anything, that reminds me of the transfiguration, where Jesus' "face changed and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightening", Luke 9:29. Or the figure that Ezekiel saw on the throne of God; like brilliant metal and fire and light surrounded him, Ezekiel 1:28. Or the One like the Son of Man in Revelation; whose "face was like the sun, shining in all it's brilliance", Revelation 1:16.
God is light, 1 John 1:5 - and that is taught elsewhere in the NT. What is amazing is that if we spend long enough "looking at" God, we can begin to reflect that light.

Why you've decided to focus on the nature of Moses' face covering and equate it to any physical mask that we might wear today, is baffling.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's

Sure thing. God gets the veil over heart and medical official get the mask over face.

So we all happy now ?

 

[Bruce Leiter]

In 2 Corinthians 3:12-4:4, Paul equates the veiling of the face with hardness of heart and blind eyes of those who are perishing in slavery and shame under the law. The unveiled face otoh is free to proclaim the gospel, behold the glory of God and be transformed by the Spirit in mercy and righteousness.

Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech. We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at the end of what was fading away. But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. But we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Do you consider this passage contains teaching regarding the use of face coverings by Christians today?

My short answer is "No."

My long answer is that you need to consider the larger context of the passage you quote, 2 Corinthians 2:12--7:5. In that whole passage, Paul uses descriptions of the new covenant to defend his apostleship against the false teachers attacking him. 2 Cor. 3:3 is key in his description of the difference between the old and new covenants. The external, national covenant was written on the tablets and descriptions of the outer worship that Moses brought down with him after 40 days on Sinai. It was a national law for the nation of Israel, the external form of which was abolished by Jesus' death.

However, the new covenant was the same covenant made new with the same principles but not the outward forms for the international church. The principles carry over to the new covenant, but they are written on the heart with the new birth, which also happened to a minority of Israelites in the Old Testament.

Thus, the principle is entirely different from the question of face masks today. Other biblical themes apply to that practice, however. For example, the Old and New Testament command, "Love your neighbor as yourself," certainly fits.

 

[Jamdoc]

It amounts to the same thing, does it not? The temple of God is now a walking biohazard.

And you seem to have uncritically accepted a number of unproven claims there btw.

No I'm just not biologically illiterate.
viruses need an incubation period, during that time they can still be transmitted but have not done enough damage or caused enough alarm to trigger immune response to show symptoms.

 

[Archivist]

This seems a non sequitur. Is Paul or Moses doing surgery here? Are ppl who are forced to wear facemasks due to covid also given scalpels and a medical degree?

I noticed that you didn't bother answering my question so I will try again. If you go into the hospital for surgery would you have no issues with your doctors and nurses operating on you without wearing masks?

 

[GraceBro]

In 2 Corinthians 3:12-4:4, Paul equates the veiling of the face with hardness of heart and blind eyes of those who are perishing in slavery and shame under the law. The unveiled face otoh is free to proclaim the gospel, behold the glory of God and be transformed by the Spirit in mercy and righteousness.

Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech. We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at the end of what was fading away. But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. But we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Do you consider this passage contains teaching regarding the use of face coverings by Christians today?

Paul is talking about the difference between law and grace. The difference between being under the curse of the law or free in Christ. It's really not about face coverings at all.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

biologically illiterate.

If you say so.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Sure thing. God gets the veil over heart and medical official get the mask over face.

So we all happy now ?

I stand in awe.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I noticed that you didn't bother answering my question so I will try again. If you go into the hospital for surgery would you have no issues with your doctors and nurses operating on you without wearing masks?

I try to avoid hospitals, they're full of sick ppl.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Paul is talking about the difference between law and grace. The difference between being under the curse of the law or free in Christ. It's really not about face coverings at all.

When face coverings become law, what's the gracious response? What would Jesus do?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

My reading of Exodus 34:33-35 is that after Moses had spent time with God, receiving the 10 commandments, his face literally shone.

I'll prefer Paul's reading of the passage if you don't mind.

Maybe by the time of the NT; in the OT they would show themselves to be holy and prove they were God's people by keeping his law.

Paul's revealing it was a barrier to seeing God's holiness and receiving the gospel. The devil makes his slaves wear face masks. But I guess there's no correlation.

Yes; whatever your veil happens to be - legalism, prejudice, greed, pride etc.

Legalism in this case, as in 'face coverings are mandated by law'.

Caesar hasn't imposed anything, he's dead; we're not under Roman law

If you say so.

Well I'm sorry, but you clearly do.

Thanks for your honesty. Now remove the plank from your own.

If anything, that reminds me of the transfiguration, where Jesus' "face changed and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightening", Luke 9:29. Or the figure that Ezekiel saw on the throne of God; like brilliant metal and fire and light surrounded him, Ezekiel 1:28. Or the One like the Son of Man in Revelation; whose "face was like the sun, shining in all it's brilliance", Revelation 1:16.
God is light, 1 John 1:5 - and that is taught elsewhere in the NT.

Good, but we don't see Jesus covering his face. He heals lepers. Occasionally they thank him. So what do you think Jesus would do if Caesar ordered him to wear a mask?

 

[Archivist]

I try to avoid hospitals, they're full of sick ppl.

In other words, you don’t have an answer. Just as I thought.

 

[Strong in Him]

I'll prefer Paul's reading of the passage if you don't mind.

That was Paul's reading too - Moses put a veil over his face because the Israelites could not look at it, 2 Corinthians 3:13.

Paul's revealing it was a barrier to seeing God's holiness and receiving the gospel. The devil makes his slaves wear face masks. But I guess there's no correlation.

No, there isn't.
Paul said nothing about "the devil making his servants wear face masks". And if you're implying that anyone who wears a physical face mask today is a servant of the devil; you couldn't be more wrong.

Legalism in this case, as in 'face coverings are mandated by law'.

Are you talking about the wearing of face masks now?
They have to be worn on public transport and, in my country, in shops, from Friday 24th. They do not have to be worn in open spaces.
If you're suggesting Christians should disobey the law of the land; suggestion noted and discarded. (And if you want Biblical teaching on that, read Romans 13:1-7.)

If you say so.

I don't understand why you think otherwise - unless you're Italian.

Thanks for your honesty. Now remove the plank from your own.

I haven't got a plank.
I was explaining what Scripture actually says; not reading into it.

Good, but we don't see Jesus covering his face.

??
There was never a reason for him to.

So what do you think Jesus would do if Caesar ordered him to wear a mask?

As the country that Jesus chose to be born into was under Roman rule, I imagine he would have obeyed - just as he had to obey the other laws that the Romans imposed upon the land. Had he disobeyed, he might have been imprisoned or killed, and that would have ended his ministry.

But he wasn't ever ordered to wear a mask - and that's not what Paul is talking about.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

In 2 Corinthians 3:12-4:4, Paul equates the veiling of the face with hardness of heart and blind eyes of those who are perishing in slavery and shame under the law. The unveiled face otoh is free to proclaim the gospel, behold the glory of God and be transformed by the Spirit in mercy and righteousness.

Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech. We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at the end of what was fading away. But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. But we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Do you consider this passage contains teaching regarding the use of face coverings by Christians today?

No.

Wear a mask in public.

 

[parousia70]

But be careful, he who trades liberty for security risks losing both.

Well, it's a good thing that the wearing of a face mask in public INCREASES personal liberty by INCREASING the likelihood you will remain completely anonymous in public, unrecognizable to the thousands and thousands of cameras the state already has up and running, using facial recognition software to identify you and track your movements, associations, behaviors etc...

It is NOBODY'S business, ESPECIALLY GOVERNMENT to know who you are, where you are going, what your are doing and/or who you are with in Public (or Private).

Today's Mask requirement is a catalyst for freedom. It has thrust personal liberty FORWARD and set a HUGE roadblock in the way of Government's ability to identify and track you.

The wearing of a face covering insures your God given right to public anonymity is not abridged by the state. If you wish to freely relinquish that right, that Liberty, that personal freedom to the State, then by all means, go ahead and freely, willingly hand it right over by not wearing a mask.

Not me, no way. I will not be giving up those freedoms.
I cherish my Liberty, therefore I will always mask up.

Wear the Mask = Stay Anonymous = Stay FREE

 

[crossnote]

Face Coverings?
We're not Islamists pushing Burkhas, are we? LOL

 

[crossnote]

Wear the Mask = Stay Anonymous = Stay FREE

pffft. So then they 'chip' you. lol