St Paul on Face Coverings

[Jonathan Walkerin]

This is nothing to do with the head coverings mentioned in 1 Corinthians 11:6-10, and nothing at all about wearing masks in a pandemic for health reasons.

Corinthians probably has no mention of wearing a covering helmet when you got to space walk either.

Wonder why that is.

 

[Jamdoc]

So we are all lepers now? Should we also shout 'Unclean!' as we walk around the streets?

Not lepers no, but the concept is the same. Leprosy is caused by a bacteria Mycobacterium leprae, in the same family of bacteria that cause Tuberculosis. It's spread by coughing and sneezing, so to prevent its spread they were instructed to socially distance, practice good hygeine, destroy contaminated clothes, and cover their mouth.

In this case, since it's a virus, rather than a bacteria, you can be contagious before you show symptoms, so the precautions are ramped up, because we don't know if we are infected or not until weeks after we've been infected and start showing symptoms, unless we've been tested and come up negative. So we wear the masks in case we have been infected not to spread to someone else.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

dying on ventilators

I hope you're aware that ventilators are killing machines?
Almost 90% of COVID Patients Placed on Ventilators in New York City Died

Just add intubation and/or anaesthetic, and its homicide central. What an absolute disgrace.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Not lepers no, but the concept is the same. Leprosy is caused by a bacteria Mycobacterium leprae, in the same family of bacteria that cause Tuberculosis. It's spread by coughing and sneezing, so to prevent its spread they were instructed to socially distance, practice good hygeine, destroy contaminated clothes, and cover their mouth.

In this case, since it's a virus, rather than a bacteria, you can be contagious before you show symptoms, so the precautions are ramped up, because we don't know if we are infected or not until weeks after we've been infected and start showing symptoms, unless we've been tested and come up negative. So we wear the masks in case we have been infected not to spread to someone else.

It amounts to the same thing, does it not? The temple of God is now a walking biohazard.

And you seem to have uncritically accepted a number of unproven claims there btw.

 

[InnerPhyre]

I hope you're aware that ventilators are killing machines?
Almost 90% of COVID Patients Placed on Ventilators in New York City Died

Just add intubation and/or anaesthetic, and its homicide central. What an absolute disgrace.

As I said, I have been doing this since March, when doctors deduced that a lack of oxygen would necessitate ventilators, which was the rational response at the time. As this is a novel corona virus (new corona virus) we did not know how to combat it immediately. New treatments emerge including giving plasma from recovered patients which is working better. Even so, I fail to see how any of this is a valid reason not to wear a mask when in an enclosed building with strangers. Three of my coworkers died from this virus. One was a healthy 30 year old man. I never lost coworkers to the flu. My hospitals icu is at 100 percent currently and we are having to send covid patients to other hospitals because we have no more room.

 

[InnerPhyre]

Look I’m just gonna say this and then bow out of this argument. I know wearing masks isn’t fun. I wear an n95 with another mask on top of it in the outdoor heat every day because we have to reuse our n95s due to shortages. I wear two layers of clothes with a gown and gloves and goggles, again for 8 hours a day in summer heat. I get it. Masks aren’t fun. But the people working at your hospitals aren’t part of some grand conspiracy. We aren’t trying to enslave people by forcing masks on them and ending Christian worship. We do our jobs because we love people and want to help in a time of great crisis and it would be a great help to us if everyone could toss a mask on when you are at the grocery store or church. Because we are suffering right now and things are getting hard. And the people dying from the virus are suffering worse. That’s all.

 

[Strong in Him]

It amounts to the same thing, does it not? The temple of God is now a walking biohazard.

And you seem to have uncritically accepted a number of unproven claims there btw.

Are you actually seeking to understand the meaning of the verses in 2 Corinthians 3, or are you trying to use Scripture to justify not wearing face masks in this current pandemic?

Just interested.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Three of my coworkers died from this virus. One was a healthy 30 year old man. I never lost coworkers to the flu.

Well if you're putting them on ventilators, it's little wonder. I've heard from nurses who say it was common knowledge even in the 1970s that ventilators plus anaesthesia is a recipe for death.

My hospitals icu is at 100 percent currently and we are having to send covid patients to other hospitals because we have no more room.

Well, that's because the PCR tests return nothing but false positives.

It is better to trust God than put your faith in man. (Ps 118:8)

 

[FenderTL5]

.

 

[Lady Chuza]

In 2 Corinthians 3:12-4:4, Paul equates the veiling of the face with hardness of heart and blind eyes of those who are perishing in slavery and shame under the law. The unveiled face otoh is free to proclaim the gospel, behold the glory of God and be transformed by the Spirit in mercy and righteousness.

Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech. We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at the end of what was fading away. But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. But we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Do you consider this passage contains teaching regarding the use of face coverings by Christians today?

Now that's quite a stretch.
A veil is not the same thing at all. If you had to have surgery, would you tell the surgeon he could forego the mask? Seriously...

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Are you actually seeking to understand the meaning of the verses in 2 Corinthians 3, or are you trying to use Scripture to justify not wearing face masks in this current pandemic?

Just interested.

I'd like to see if there's any justification in scripture (preferably the NT) for a person to wear face coverings, when they are not sick.

What I see in this passage is an example of the symbolic power the HS attaches to face-covering.

Now you might disagree or think the spiritual freedom (in dispensing with the mask) is less important than the supposed public safety benefit in donning the mask. But be careful, he who trades liberty for security risks losing both.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Now that's quite a stretch.
A veil is not the same thing at all. If you had to have surgery, would you tell the surgeon he could forego the mask? Seriously...

I pray the veil is lifted.

 

[BryanJohnMaloney]

In 2 Corinthians 3:12-4:4, Paul equates the veiling of the face with hardness of heart and blind eyes of those who are perishing in slavery and shame under the law. The unveiled face otoh is free to proclaim the gospel, behold the glory of God and be transformed by the Spirit in mercy and righteousness.

Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech. We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at the end of what was fading away. But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. But we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Do you consider this passage contains teaching regarding the use of face coverings by Christians today?

I consider you to be grasping at straws to find any (heretical) rationalization of not wearing a face mask to help reduce effects of the pandemic. It's like the people who claim they have "asthma" because they are out of shape and huff and puff when they walk, all so they can claim a "disability" that prevents them from using masks.

 

[BryanJohnMaloney]

I'd like to see if there's any justification in scripture (preferably the NT) for a person to wear face coverings, when they are not sick.

What I see in this passage is an example of the symbolic power the HS attaches to face-covering.

Now you might disagree or think the spiritual freedom (in dispensing with the mask) is less important than the supposed public safety benefit in donning the mask. But be careful, he who trades liberty for security risks losing both.

I'd like to see the conclusive evidence that lack of symptoms means you aren't carrying the virus. Then, anyone who wants to make the "not sick" claim is freed to get a COVID-19 test every three days forever to avoid wearing masks.

 

[Strong in Him]

I'd like to see if there's any justification in scripture (preferably the NT) for a person to wear face coverings, when they are not sick.

What I see in this passage is an example of the symbolic power the HS attaches to face-covering.

Well I'm sorry, but I think that's completely wrong.
Moses put a veil over his face after descending from Mt Sinai where he had spoken with the Lord face to face - why?
Because he had sent so much time in the Lord's presence that his face shone, and the Israelites were unable to look at him.
Then, he drew a parallel with the Gospel. Some people can't see the full light/truth of the Gospel - either it is hidden from them or they have prejudice, or something similar, in their hearts which prevents them from seeing the truth. The light of the Gospel can't reach them because their hearts are veiled.

At no other point in Exodus did Moses wear a face covering - not at the burning bush, in front of Pharaoh, crossing the Red Sea or anywhere else; ONLY when he had spent many days in the Lord's presence receiving his word.
Personally, I'd love my face to shine so brightly with God's glory/reflected light that I needed to cover up to protect others.

But that is in no way the same as wearing a mask over your nose and mouth to prevent germs that cause illness.

Now you might disagree or think the spiritual freedom (in dispensing with the mask) is less important than the supposed public safety benefit in donning the mask. But be careful, he who trades liberty for security risks losing both.

I was answering your post which I, mistakenly, thought was about the verses from 2 Corinthians 3, and Exodus 34. I'd much rather talk about that, and especially how we can reflect Jesus.
I see no teaching at all in those verses about the benefits of wearing a temporary mask over the nose and mouth only for health reasons. And if this thread is really an attempt to justify from Scripture the freedom not to wear a mask; I'm unsubscribing. I hate it when a verse from Scripture is used to back up/justify/impose a personal agenda or doctrine.

 

[Archivist]

I'd like to see if there's any justification in scripture (preferably the NT) for a person to wear face coverings, when they are not sick.

What I see in this passage is an example of the symbolic power the HS attaches to face-covering.

Now you might disagree or think the spiritual freedom (in dispensing with the mask) is less important than the supposed public safety benefit in donning the mask. But be careful, he who trades liberty for security risks losing both.

So if you go into the hospital for surgery you would have no issues with your doctors and nurses operating on you without wearing masks?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I consider you to be grasping at straws to find any (heretical) rationalization of not wearing a face mask to help reduce effects of the pandemic. It's like the people who claim they have "asthma" because they are out of shape and huff and puff when they walk, all so they can claim a "disability" that prevents them from using masks.

Thank you for your sanguine reply Bryan. I take it you see nothing in Paul's declaration of freedom from the veil cast by the law that relates to a law mandating the wearing of face masks in public.

I'd like to see the conclusive evidence that lack of symptoms means you aren't carrying the virus. Then, anyone who wants to make the "not sick" claim is freed to get a COVID-19 test every three days forever to avoid wearing masks.

Getting a little ahead of the true state of play there sir. Perhaps the first port of call might be to actually prove the supposed virus exists as a scientific fact. To date it has not been purified, meaning that the particles the tests now detect cannot be proven to be viral. There's still no 'gold standard'.

Once you've done that, the next step would be to prove it's pathogenic, that it causes any disease. Sadly that also has not been done, scientifically. So your current PCR tests aren't detecting any new virus, just spewing out results wrongly interpreted as 'positives' on a range of common symptoms, or on none at all.

But don't take my word for it. The CDC's disclaimer, in its instructions for PCR test use:

Positive results are indicative of active infection with 2019-nCoV but do not rule out bacterial infection or co-infection with other viruses. The agent detected may not be the definite cause of disease.
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjWs6C1qt7qAhWRfH0KHRvEDigQFjAEegQIBRAB&url=https://www.fda.gov/media/134922/download&usg=AOvVaw26_v3GqAn8Y9-F3w81SSQR
(Page 2)

Do you get the downplay and doublespeak in that quote, my friend? I certainly hope so.

Returning to the word of God, by way of encouragement:

O Bryan, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: which some have professed and thus swerved away from the faith. (1 Tim 6:20-1)

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Well I'm sorry, but I think that's completely wrong.
Moses put a veil over his face after descending from Mt Sinai where he had spoken with the Lord face to face - why?
Because he had sent so much time in the Lord's presence that his face shone, and the Israelites were unable to look at him.
Then, he drew a parallel with the Gospel. Some people can't see the full light/truth of the Gospel - either it is hidden from them or they have prejudice, or something similar, in their hearts which prevents them from seeing the truth. The light of the Gospel can't reach them because their hearts are veiled.

At no other point in Exodus did Moses wear a face covering - not at the burning bush, in front of Pharaoh, crossing the Red Sea or anywhere else; ONLY when he had spent many days in the Lord's presence receiving his word.
Personally, I'd love my face to shine so brightly with God's glory/reflected light that I needed to cover up to protect others.

But that is in no way the same as wearing a mask over your nose and mouth to prevent germs that cause illness.

Of course we can disagree, I'm here to learn and test a particular interpretation and its applicability to our lives, spiritual and moral. To do that I'll try to defend it, and ultimately see if it holds up. Why I'm posting.

Is Paul not revealing something new about the purpose of Moses' face covering? That it was symbolic of the occlusion of God's glory by the law. And we symbolically cast away the veil from our face that keeps us from seeing the shekinah glory and hearing the true gospel.

So when Caesar imposes the rule of face covering by Roman law and in the name of security, does nothing sound in your conscience, in connection with Paul's revelation?

I was answering your post which I, mistakenly, thought was about the verses from 2 Corinthians 3, and Exodus 34. I'd much rather talk about that, and especially how we can reflect Jesus.
I see no teaching at all in those verses about the benefits of wearing a temporary mask over the nose and mouth only for health reasons. And if this thread is really an attempt to justify from Scripture the freedom not to wear a mask; I'm unsubscribing. I hate it when a verse from Scripture is used to back up/justify/impose a personal agenda or doctrine.

The Protestant dream, sola scriptura, as if one can just put aside all the assumptions and unconscious agenda one has and just let the Bible speak for itself, with none but the HS as guide. Clearly it hasn't worked out that way. We need to be honest enough to admit that we all bring at least unconscious agenda to the text.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

So if you go into the hospital for surgery you would have no issues with your doctors and nurses operating on you without wearing masks?

This seems a non sequitur. Is Paul or Moses doing surgery here? Are ppl who are forced to wear facemasks due to covid also given scalpels and a medical degree?

 

[BryanJohnMaloney]

Thank you for your sanguine reply Bryan. I take it you see nothing in Paul's declaration of freedom from the veil cast by the law that relates to a law mandating the wearing of face masks in public.



Getting a little ahead of the true state of play there sir. Perhaps the first port of call might be to actually prove the supposed virus exists as a scientific fact. To date it has not been purified, meaning that the particles the tests now detect cannot be proven to be viral. There's still no 'gold standard'.

Once you've done that, the next step would be to prove it's pathogenic, that it causes any disease. Sadly that also has not been done, scientifically. So your current PCR tests aren't detecting any new virus, just spewing out results wrongly interpreted as 'positives' on a range of common symptoms, or on none at all.

But don't take my word for it. The CDC's disclaimer, in its instructions for PCR test use:

Positive results are indicative of active infection with 2019-nCoV but do not rule out bacterial infection or co-infection with other viruses. The agent detected may not be the definite cause of disease.
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjWs6C1qt7qAhWRfH0KHRvEDigQFjAEegQIBRAB&url=https://www.fda.gov/media/134922/download&usg=AOvVaw26_v3GqAn8Y9-F3w81SSQR
(Page 2)

Do you get the downplay and doublespeak in that quote, my friend? I certainly hope so.

Returning to the word of God, by way of encouragement:

O Bryan, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: which some have professed and thus swerved away from the faith. (1 Tim 6:20-1)

It is not possible to reason with someone who indulges in such daft and daffy conspiracy theory as you.