Islam Sri Lankan Massacre Revenge

[Pavel Mosko]

You would be making the same mistake as extremists. You would be failing to separate the historical content from the teachings of Islam. 99% of Muslims in the world are taught and know how to do this. This is why you see them living in harmony with their neighbors rather than following the examples of groups like ISIS.

Most Muslims don't do Jihad but many do push Sharia law outside their homeland, and that sort of thing I would not call "living in harmony". In fact, it actually accomplishes the goal of Jihad as far as "subjugation of the infidel" goes because non-Muslims are forced to abide by Muslim standards rather than Muslims having to accept the laws and customs of their host country.

 

[JosephZ]

Most Muslims don't do Jihad but many do push Sharia law outside their homeland, and that sort of thing I would not call "living in harmony". In fact, it actually accomplishes the goal of Jihad as far as "subjugation of the infidel" goes because non-Muslims are forced to abide by Muslim standards rather than Muslims having to accept the laws and customs of their host country.

Can you provide some examples of where Muslims individually or as a group have been trying to force Shari'ah on others?

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Can you provide some examples of where Muslims individually or as a group have been trying to force Shari'ah on others?

The No Go zones are the best examples.

 

[JosephZ]

The No Go zones are the best examples

That's not a no go zone and those are called extremists. They are being condemned by Muslims and Muslim leaders in those communities and being arrested when they harass people. They have no authority and nobody is taking their demands seriously. They are no different than members of the Westboro Baptist Church standing on street corners with signs telling everyone God hates Jews and American soldiers. Just like Westboro Baptist doesn't represent Christians, those guys in that video and their unsanctioned patrols don't represent Muslims.

 

[Barney2.0]

So you are saying that better than 99% of those claiming to be Muslims aren't practicing their religion? Do you know how silly that sounds?


Yes, there was often conflict between the conquistadors, missionaries, and the hierarchy, but the orders were always to conquer, colonize, and Christianize. Missionaries and the conquistadors traveled on the ships together and even went into battle together. Some of the conquistadors were made religious leaders in the lands they plundered. You can't separate one from the other.


You would be making the same mistake as extremists. You would be failing to separate the historical content from the teachings of Islam. 99% of Muslims in the world are taught and know how to do this. This is why you see them living in harmony with their neighbors rather than following the examples of groups like ISIS.


Why aren't these things happening today? The only ones doing these things are groups like ISIS and the Taliban. And what's the big deal about taxing non-Muslims anyway? Muslims were also taxed under the Zakat which in most cases higher than what non-Muslims would pay under the Jizyah system of taxation. It's always funny when someone brings up the tax issue as if it was some form of punishment. Why would non-Muslims be exempt from paying taxes?

Yeah I am saying that most Muslims aren’t practicing their religion to the max because the world has become more modern and most Muslims have become better then what their religion teaches them.

The conquistadors did not come to convert the pagan natives they came to slaughter plunder and otherwise leave and make themselves rich in Spain and Europe. Missionary orders also frequently opposed European colonization. A Conquistador can’t become a religious leader unless he gives up his normal life to become a bishop, priest, or monk. And yes we can seperate one from the other as the religious orders frequently were in conflict with the interests of the state.

The Jizyah system wasn’t just tax, there was humiliation that came along with it, dhimmis who paid Jizyah had massive social restrictions on them that Muslims who payed zakat didn’t. I’m fine with paying tax, however when I’m treated as a third class citizen little better then a slave or animal then there’s really an issue here. Muslims were allowed to live freely without any restrictions while non Muslims could barely practice their religion publically. Jizyah was 10% higher then Zakat and sometimes 50% higher aswell. The Jizyah is also a sign of humiliation and shame and submission to Islam:


The number of Muslims doing something and what they’re doing and what their religion teaches are two seperate things, also I wouldn’t say it’s 99% probably around 80 or 75% if we’re lucky. Also in practically every Muslim majority country which has sharia law as the official penal code persecutes minority faiths and groups. In my country apostates from Islam are put to death and so are “witches,” and conversion out of Islam to any other religion or ideology is not allowed, so what’s this bs of living in harmony, also please define what’s extremism, besides a few errors on pronouncing a Khilafat, Isis is the closest thing to real Islam, show me one thing different they did to Mohammed’s closet companions that’s my challenge to you, show me and show us one difference.

The honour of Islam lies in insulting kufr and kafirs. One who respects the kafirs dishonours the Muslims… The real purpose of levying jiziya on them is to humiliate them to such an extent that they may not be able to dress well and to live in grandeur. They should constantly remain terrified and trembling. It is intended to hold them under contempt and to uphold the honour and might of Islam.

Sufi saint Ahmad Sirhindi (1564-1624), letter No. 163


...the dhimmi is obliged not to mention Allah or His Apostle…Jews, Christians, and Majians must pay the jizya …on offering up the jizya, the dhimmi must hang his head while the official takes hold of his beard and hits [the dhimmi] on the protruberant bone beneath his ear [i.e., the mandible]...

Al-Ghazali (1101)


...on the authority of Ibn Abbas...that the jizya is taken from the dhimmi, [while] his neck is being hung low.

Al-Baydawi (D. 1286)

Allah said, (until they pay the Jizyah), if they do not choose to embrace Islam, (with willing submission), in defeat and subservience, (and feel themselves subdued.), disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated. Muslim recorded from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said, "Do not initiate the Salam to the Jews and Christians, and if you meet any of them in a road, force them to its narrowest alley." This is why the Leader of the faithful `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, demanded his well-known conditions be met by the Christians, these conditions that ensured their continued humiliation, degradation and disgrace.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2566

Read more here:

Jizyah (Tax) - WikiIslam

Let’s bring in the pact of Omar, which shows how non Muslims historically lived under Islam:

• The ruler would provide security for the Christian believers who follow the rules of the pact.
• Prohibition against building new churches, places of worship, monasteries, monks or a new cell. (Hence it was also forbidden to build new synagogues, although it is known that new synagogues were built after the occupation of the Islam, for example in Jerusalem and Ramle. The law that prohibits to build new synagogues was not new for the Jews, it was applied also during the Byzantines. It was new for the Christians.)
• Prohibition against rebuilding destroyed churches, by day or night, in their own neighborhoods or those situated in the quarters of the Muslims.
• Prohibition against hanging a cross on the Churches.
• Muslims should be allowed to enter Churches (for shelter) in any time, both in day and night.
• Obliging the call of prayer by a bell or a kind of Gong (Nakos) to be low in volume.
• Prohibition of Christians and Jews against raising their voices at prayer times.
• Prohibition against teaching non-Muslim children the Qur'an.
• Christians were forbidden to show their religion in public, or to be seen with Christian books or symbols in public, on the roads or in the markets of the Muslims.
• Palm Sunday and Easter parades were banned.
• Funerals should be conducted quietly.
• Prohibition against burying non-Muslim dead near Muslims.
• Prohibition against raising a pig next to a Muslims neighbor.
• Christian were forbidden to sell Muslims alcoholic beverage.
• Christians were forbidden to provide cover or shelter for spies.
• Prohibition against telling a lie about Muslims.
• Obligation to show deference toward Muslims. If a Muslim wishes to sit, non-Muslim should be rise from his seats and let the Muslim sit.
• Prohibition against preaching to Muslims in an attempt to convert them from Islam.
• Prohibition against preventing the conversion to Islam of some one who wants to convert.
• The appearance of the non-Muslims has to be different from those of the Muslims: Prohibition against wearing Qalansuwa(kind of dome that was used to wear by Bedouin), Bedouin turban (Amamh), Muslims shoes, and Sash to their waists. As to their heads, it was forbidden to comb the hair sidewise as the Muslim custom, and they were forced to cut the hair in the front of the head. Also non-Muslim shall not imitate the Arab-Muslim way of speech nor shall adopt the kunyas (Arabic byname, such as "abu Khattib").
• Obligation to identify non-Muslims as such by clipping the heads' forelocks and by always dressing in the same manner, wherever they go, with binding the zunar (a kind of belt) around the waists. Christians to wear blue belts or turbans, Jews to wear yellow belts or turbans, Zoroastrians to wear black belts or turbans, and Samaritans to wear red belts or turbans.
• Prohibition against riding animals in the Muslim custom, and prohibition against riding with a saddle.
• Prohibition against adopting a Muslim title of honor.
• Prohibition against engraving Arabic inscriptions on signet seals.
• Prohibition against any possession of weapons.
• Non-Muslims must host a Muslim passerby for at least 3 days and feed him.
• Non-Muslims prohibited from buying a Muslim prisoner.
• Prohibition against taking slaves who have been allotted to Muslims.
• Prohibition against non-Muslims to lead, govern or employ Muslims.
• If a non-Muslim beats a Muslim, his Dhimmi is removed.
• The worship places of non-Muslims must be lower in elevation than the lowest mosque in town.
• The houses of non-Muslims must not be taller in elevation than the houses of Muslims.

 

[JosephZ]

The No Go zones are the best examples.

I noticed you added a couple more videos to your post.

The second is from the group Acts 17 Apologetics. They are very similar to Westboro Baptist Church, except they are right-wing and part of the anti-Islamic propaganda industry. Here is a video of them at the Arab Festival in Dearborn with a pigs head on a stick and yelling insults at children.

There were several other Christian ministries at the Arab Festival, and they had no problems. This group went there to instigate a riot and they got what they were looking for.

Unfortunately because of Acts 17 Apologetics and threats from other right-wing groups, the Arab Festival had to be canceled and is no longer held in Dearborn. Not only does this deprive families from enjoying themselves each year, it hurts the local economy and most importantly, true Christian ministries lost an excellent venue for witnessing to Muslims because of the actions of these groups.


The second video of the 60 Minutes crew getting attacked has a similar character behind it. The man being interviewed, Jan Sjunnesson, is a notorious right-wing anti immigration activist. It very well be that the attack was staged by him since he has a history of lying and trying to portray the immigrant population in Sweden in a bad light. The perpetrators wore masks and no charges were filed, so there is no way of knowing for sure if the attack was real or not.

Aussie crew not 'in cahoots' with Swedish anti-refugee site

Avpixlat-writer Jan Sjunnesson acts as expert when Australian 60 Minutes visited Sweden. But in the episode, he spreads a false story that allegedly shows a 14-year-old athlete among peers.

The man in the video is known for creating discord in the community where this attack occurred.

Sweden far-right plans gay parade in mainly Muslim area

Swedish journalist faces probe for anti-Muslim drawings

Also, there are not any "No Go Zones" in Sweden.

Embassy: No-go zones 'do not exist in Sweden'

 

[Pavel Mosko]

That's not a no go zone and those are called extremists. They are being condemned by Muslims and Muslim leaders in those communities and being arrested when they harass people. They have no authority and nobody is taking their demands seriously. They are no different than members of the Westboro Baptist Church standing on street corners with signs telling everyone God hates Jews and American soldiers. Just like Westboro Baptist doesn't represent Christians, those guys in that video and their unsanctioned patrols don't represent Muslims.

Even if I completely accept your explanation, which I don't that one does not completely cover what happened to Nabeel Qureshi.

Besides this there is the tightening of rights that comes from the influx of Muslims and western politicians who want to placate them by restricting free speech to comply with Sharia (enforced blasphemy laws), those laws would restrict our discussion on this subject if we were living over there and they seem to be geared to affect the online world in a similar way as China would like to control how the media reports about their country via their new social media rating system.


Besides that is the dhimmi laws etc. that Al Masih posted at length about. The behavior that you mention that is not sanctioned, aka bullying actually sort of is. I am a member of the Coptic Church, I have heard many stories of such things, stories that can be actually verified. Like incidents of abduction and forced conversion, as well as other stories of dhimmi-hood (extreme restriction on churches). Such things have been shown to be treated much differently by the police. (The police usually pressure the Christian to do the Christian thing and forgive and charge them with a minor fine, rather than press the non-Christian to the full extent of the law.) It's funny that when liberals talk on other subjects like feminism and racism. liberals like you have no problem condemning systemic bias and prejudice etc. but when it comes to, Islam etc. you bend over backwards to justify it!

 

[JosephZ]

Even if I completely accept your explanation, which I don't that one does not completely cover what happened to Nabeel Qureshi.

Nabeel Qureshi couldn't even share his personal testimony on how he became a Christian without contradicting himself, so it's hard for me to take what he said in that video as being truth.

liberals like you have no problem condemning systemic bias and prejudice etc. but when it comes to, Islam etc. you bend over backwards to justify it!

I wouldn't consider myself a liberal, while I am liberal on some issues, I'm conservative on others. I'm a registered Republican and was even a member of the Tea Party several years ago. Anyway, I'm in no way defending or trying to justify Islam. As a Christian I believe it's a false religion and Muhammad was a false prophet; however; I will defend Muslims and dispel the misinformation and falsehoods being spread by extremists and anti-Islamic propagandists. I'm just trying to educate my brothers and sisters in Christ about Islam and what Muslims believe, so they will not fear this religion and those who follow it. How can Christians share their faith with Muslims if they don't interact with them and have already prejudged them based on all of the misinformation being pushed by Islamic extremists and anti-Islamic propagandists? Ignorance of Islam by non-Muslims is at the root of many of the problems we are seeing in the world today and if more people would take the time to study the religion and reach out to Muslims, the world we live in would be a better place for everyone.

 

[Joyousperson]

Pavel Mosko said: ↑
In Islam the quickest pathway to salvation comes from martyrdom aka being killed in Jihad, that gives you an instant path to salvation (which would otherwise be tenuous) but also allows for you to intercede for 70 of your relatives.

If this is true, then how do you explain why better than 99.99% of the more than 1.6 billion Muslims in the world aren't engaging in violent jihad? It seems if this is what Islam taught, you would see at least 1% of the followers of this religion doing so.

It is true martyrdom within Islam [supporting available] merit an expeditious passage to paradise with greater rewards.

It is also true only a rare % would commit martyrdom but there is a significant larger % that support martyrdom which add encouragement to the martyrs who are often respected as heroes.
Note the average is appx 25% support martyrdom in this Pew Poll;
Muslim Views on Suicide Bombing
In reality the % is likely to be greater than the above poll results.

However note the signficance of the even small % from 1.6 billion Muslims.

10% = 160 million
1% = 16 million
0.1% = 1.6
0.01% = 160,000
​

So note even if 99.99% of Muslims do not engage in violent Jihad, the 0.01% is still a very serious and critical quantum of 160,000.

Note it only took 18++ to do a 911 and a lone-wolf can cause terrible evil and violence that trigger terror in the rest of humanity, note the individuals that mow down innocents Muslims with a truck and car.

In addition, pew poll indicate an averag of 25% Muslims support martyrdom, but even if I conservative reduce that to 5% that would be 80 million Muslims.

Note Islamic terror, evil and violence is not restricted to violent jihad but cover a whole gamut and range of evils.
Note recently the Brunei Govt [non-Wahhabist] enacted laws to stone homosexuals to death and the Sultan defended the law stating 'because it is Allah's law' not his.
Even when this law was modified, what is frightening is the evil ethos that underlie the move to enact the law in the first place.
This is not the only inhuman issue, there are many inhumane issues that is ongoing around the world from Islam where many are also imposed on non-Muslim minorities. Note the inhumane blasphemy laws in many Muslims countries where execution in relation to such laws had taken place. Note the case of Asia Bibi a Christian from Pakistan.

Your usual 99.99% counter as apologetic to Islam is toothless.

In addition to this video being incredibly inaccurate historically, it also doesn't mention the many Christian explorers who committed atrocities and killed millions while establishing new territories and "Christianizing" the native populations in North and South America, the Caribbean, Africa, Southeast Asia, and the Pacific Islands; the Spanish inquisitions, the United States and Manifest destiny.

This is another strawman as usual.

Where is your sense of morality and justice?

All sort of evil and violent acts around the world had been condemned by various majority groups.

Your 'what about others' deflection away from Muslim atrocities is again another toothless and a bad argument.

There is no excuse for a rapist to insist to the jury or judge, what about others who raped?

 

[Joyousperson]

...
As a Christian I believe it's a false religion and Muhammad was a false prophet;

however; I will defend Muslims and dispel the misinformation and falsehoods being spread by extremists and anti-Islamic propagandists.

I'm just trying to educate my brothers and sisters in Christ about Islam and what Muslims believe, so they will not fear this religion and those who follow it.

How can Christians share their faith with Muslims if they don't interact with them and have already prejudged them based on all of the misinformation being pushed by Islamic extremists and anti-Islamic propagandists? Ignorance of Islam by non-Muslims is at the root of many of the problems we are seeing in the world today and if more people would take the time to study the religion and reach out to Muslims, the world we live in would be a better place for everyone.

It is not only a false religion from a false prophet but was is critical is the ideology of Islam is heavily loaded with inherent malignant evil elements which can be objective justified with verses from the Quran.
Christians would claim Buddhism, Jainism, Bahaism and others are false religions with false prophets, but these religions do not condone any evil and violent elements in their holy texts.

I believe you are very wrong in your approach by conflating various elements in this very serious issue that is impacting humanity terribly and it could even exterminate the human species.

The first proper thing you MUST do is to separate the ideology from the believers.
Thus you must differentiate the ideology of Islam [ideas] from Muslims [who are human beings].

It is VERY wrong to condemn Muslims [as human beings] as solely responsible for the atrocities, evil and violence committed by SOME Muslims.
I would not even blame those SOME Muslims who actually committed the atrocities for they are merely victims of the ideology of Islam. They were compelled to carry out their divine duty with a promise and be assured of salvation. But they have to be accountable for their crimes in accordance to the law of the land, but they are not the root cause nor ultimate means of the terrible evil and violence manifested.

It is like blaming the ideas of the Main Kempf for the atrocities by the German people, but in principle we should not blame the German people as a whole. Of course Hitler was directly responsible.

Similarly we should not blame Muslims even the ones who committed the atrocities at present. Of course we must blame the ones who founded the ideology of Islam, but they already dead while the ideology is still alive and active.

The ultimate root cause of all the atrocities, evils and violence by SOME Muslims must be traced to the ideology of Islam and not the Muslims as innocent victims in this ideological issue.

The main cause is the ideology of Islam that contain loads of evil elements which no human on earth can judge they are wrong!
As such even if 10% of Muslims [160 million !!!] are drawn to the evil elements of the ideology, then there is the reality of atrocities, evil and violence committed by zealous Muslims as their divine duty in accordance to the cannot-be-disputed ideology of Islam.

Note in the case of evil and violent elements in the media, we banned or censor them to avoid them influencing the vulnerable SOME to commit terrible evils and violence, e.g. PG ratings in movies, hate speeches, etc.

Accordingly we should do something to the 'cannot never be judged' evil elements in the Quran to prevent them from influencing vulnerable Muslims and inspiring them to commit terrible evils and violent acts upon non-Muslims and even Muslims the deemed as apostate and hypocrites.

But the problem and hindrance is, no human on earth can do anything to the Quran which is claimed to be perfect and immutable.

My point is, the guilty extremists must be accountable for their crimes under the law, but critically and primarily we should focus on the ideology of Islam itself and not on the Muslims who are either moderates or extremists.

In your case, your approach is wrong by focusing too much on the extremists while allowing the ideology with its inherent malignant elements to fester and the evil compounding within the Muslim population.

Note the increasing trend of terrorist attacks in the Phillippines
Terrorism in the Philippines - Wikipedia
This increase is due to the festering effect of the evil ideology regardless where the source is from, but ultimately it is from the immutable Quran.

It is very obvious and noticeable the Muslims are putting a tighter Islamic screw on Muslims and non-Muslims around the world.

 

[JosephZ]

Note the average is appx 25% support martyrdom in this Pew Poll;
Muslim Views on Suicide Bombing
In reality the % is likely to be greater than the above poll results.

However note the signficance of the even small % from 1.6 billion Muslims.

10% = 160 million
1% = 16 million
0.1% = 1.6
0.01% = 160,000

99.99% of Muslims that answered in support of the use of violence against civilians will never act out in violence themselves. We know this to be true, because that's what we are seeing today, and have been seeing historically.

So note even if 99.99% of Muslims do not engage in violent Jihad, the 0.01% is still a very serious and critical quantum of 160,000.

And that's pretty much the number of Muslims who belong to Islamic extremists groups in the world today. That number has been stagnant for several years now and there are no indications that that number is growing in any significant way.

Note it only took 18++ to do a 911 and a lone-wolf can cause terrible evil and violence that trigger terror in the rest of humanity, note the individuals that mow down innocents Muslims with a truck and car.

Keep in mind that 9/11 was a "Black Swan" event. There had never been an attack like it before, and due to advances in counter terrorism strategies, there will likely never be another. Even in countries where Islamic terrorists have had pretty much a free reign, there has not been an attack that even comes close to scale of what took place on 9/11.

Yes, it only takes one lone wolf to create chaos. It only took one man to park a truck packed with explosives next to a building in Oklahoma City to kill 168 and injure close to 700 people. That individual was radicalized by a right-wing ideology. This is the ideology that people in the west need to be more concerned about.

In addition, pew poll indicate an averag of 25% Muslims support martyrdom, but even if I conservative reduce that to 5% that would be 80 million Muslims.

Let's look at that poll a little closer. I want you to look at the actual wording of the question that appears in the small print at the bottom.

Notice it says "Suicide bombing AND other forms of violence." A similar question was asked in the United States, and not surprisingly, the number of around 25% is very similar. What some might find surprising though is that it was Muslims who were the least likely of the groups to support violence against civilians.

Also, if you go to a more detailed report on the poll you linked to, you will find that support for violence against civilians is on the decline.

More than a decade after the 9/11 attacks and after hundreds of high profile attacks on civilians, the percentage of Muslims who say suicide bombing is often or sometimes justified has fallen in many of the countries surveyed. For instance, in 2002, 74% of Lebanese Muslims said suicide bombing was often or sometimes justified. But in the wake of well-publicized attacks, such as the 2005 assassination of Prime Minister Hariri, support has fallen to just 29% today.

In Jordan, which experienced a devastating sequence of terrorist attacks on three hotels in Amman in 2005, support for the tactic among Muslims has fallen from 57% before those attacks to 15% today. A similar trend is found in Pakistan, where suicide bombing was falling out of favor with Muslims even before the attack on former Benazir Bhutto which ended her life in 2007. A decade ago, 41% of Pakistani Muslims said attacks on civilians were justified, but that has fallen to just 3% today.

As recent as last year, 62% of Palestinian Muslims said that suicide bombing was at least sometimes justified, but that support has fallen 16 percentage points since 2013. This tracks with increased negative opinions toward extremist groups among Palestinians in the last year. Concerns about Islamic Extremism on the Rise in Middle East

It seems your fears of the extremist brand of Islam, or "true Islam" as you like to call it isn't catching on among the Majority of the world's Muslim population.

It's also important to note that terrorism has been dropping significantly since 2014. This is primarily because of the larger groups being degraded in recent years, but since there are no signs of any other jihadist organizations filling the void, it shows that your fear of Islamic extremism encompassing the globe and bringing chaos to a global scale is unwarranted.

https://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/

In 2015 total terrorist attacks decreased by 11.5 percent and total terrorism-related deaths by 12.7 percent.

In 2016, we saw a further 9.2 percent decrease in attacks and 10.2 percent decline in total terrorism-related deaths.

The downward trend continued in 2017, the most recent data available, with a 19.8 percent drop in attacks and a 24.2 percent decline in fatalities.

In Western Europe and the United States, total terrorist attacks are down sharply from the 1970s. In 2017, Western Europe accounted for only 2.7 percent of worldwide attacks and the United States for less than 1 percent of attacks.

Taken together, these 36 months have witnessed the single largest three-year decline in attacks and fatalities since the Global Terrorism Database began in 1970 – nearly a half century ago.

This trend continued into 2018:

A new study by a defense analysis company indicates there was a 33 percent drop in global terror attacks in 2018, and terrorism fatalities fell to a 10-year low. Jane's has been issuing its reports since 2009. It said the 2018 study showed the lowest fatality numbers since it began issuing the report 10 years ago.

Since 2014, there has been a 60 to 70% decline in terrorist attacks worldwide in just the past 4 years. There has also been fewer attacks in the first quarter of 2019 than there were in the first quarter of 2018, so it appears this trend is continuing.

Note recently the Brunei Govt [non-Wahhabist] enacted laws to stone homosexuals to death and the Sultan defended the law stating 'because it is Allah's law' not his.
Even when this law was modified, what is frightening is the evil ethos that underlie the move to enact the law in the first place.

Fortunately Brunei has reversed it's decision. Brunei says it won't enforce gay death penalty after backlash - Reuters But it was a result of Brunei's close relationship with Saudi Arabia and Wahhabism: Brunei steps back to the stoning age Sultanate caves into oil money by introducing Saudi-Wahhabi values of Shariah law

Also, these types of barbaric laws are not exclusive to Islamic countries. The Christian country of Nigeria recently tried to enact legislation to impose the death penalty for homosexuals. This was supported by evangelical Christian groups in the west. Kenya, another Christian country had lawmakers introduce a bill to make stoning to death of homosexuals the law of the land. This too had the support of some fringe evangelicals in the west.

Your usual 99.99% counter as apologetic to Islam is toothless.

How so when 99.99% of the world's Muslim population isn't involved in violent jihad? That is proof positive that Islam doesn't teach what you claim it does.

I believe you are very wrong in your approach by conflating various elements in this very serious issue that is impacting humanity terribly and it could even exterminate the human species.

I'm not saying that Islamic terrorism isn't a global problem, it most certainly is. It's also why we have incorporated Countering Violent Extremism into our ministry here in Mindanao. So I'm not trying to sugar coat the problem at all, I'm just trying to ease your fears of this evil.

But your fears that Islamic ideology may someday "exterminate the human species" are not based on any type of reality. If it were such a grave threat, we would have seen the effects of it before now.

As such even if 10% of Muslims [160 million !!!] are drawn to the evil elements of the ideology, then there is the reality of atrocities, evil and violence committed by zealous Muslims as their divine duty in accordance to the cannot-be-disputed ideology of Islam.

Just because an individual may hold an extreme point of view, doesn't mean they will resort to violence. In fact most extremist are non-violent. In 1,400 years less than 1% of those who profess to be Muslims adhere to an extremist brand of Islam, so your projection of 10% is unlikely to ever be reached at any point in the future. It's more likely the earth will be destroyed by an asteroid or a nuclear exchange between the world's super powers will wipe out much of the world's population before 10% of the world's Muslims become Islamic extremists and/or start acting out in violence.

Note the increasing trend of terrorist attacks in the Phillippines
Terrorism in the Philippines - Wikipedia
This increase is due to the festering effect of the evil ideology regardless where the source is from, but ultimately it is from the immutable Quran.

It is very obvious and noticeable the Muslims are putting a tighter Islamic screw on Muslims and non-Muslims around the world.

Not all terrorism is Islamic in nature. The increase in terrorism in the Philippines is a direct response to historical and current injustices committed against the countries indigenous populations. Terrorist groups have been exploiting these injustices to furter their own agendas. The majority of terrorist incidents in the Philippines are carried out by the New People's Army, a Communist terror group, which has a significant amount of support from the Christian population and many of it's leaders are Christians.

Global Terrorism Database

The New People's Army— the armed unit of the Communist Party of the Philippines—was responsible for most of the casualities, or 35-percent of the total deaths, followed by the Abu Sayyaf group responsible for 18-percent of the deaths and the Maute group, responsible for 8 percent of deaths ascribed to terrorism.

From an article on a recent attack:

...the NPAs were led by a certain Christian Pastor of the Guerilla Front 33 of the NPA Southern Mindanao Regional Command (SMRC).

An older article:

Nuns and priests working with the communists divide church... ''They begin to see God as a historical process, Christ as a liberator and faith becomes commitment to the Communist Party. ''It used to be the church said killing could only be justified in self-defense,'' the priest said. ''But in our case, where there is what we call structural injustice, we believe you don't have to wait for the other person to kill you first before you kill them.''

The NPA is the most active group here in the Davao region:

• NPA official killed in an encounter in Davao del Norte -- 15 Apr 2019
• 2 killed as Army, NPA clash in Davao del Sur -- April 6, 2019
• 1 killed as troops, NPA clash in Davao City -- March 23, 2019
• Cops, soldiers clash with suspected NPA rebels in Davao City beach -- November 26, 2018
• 2 NPA members fall, 14 others escape in Davao City -- September 22, 2018
• 3 soldiers killed in clash with NPA -- August 3, 2018
• Soldiers kill 2 NPA rebels, 1 a minor, in Davao City clash -- June 30, 2018
• 300 families flee homes in Davao del Sur as troops, NPA clash -- February 25, 2017
• AFP-NPA clashes in Davao City on Thursday: 5 killed, 15 injured -- Feb. 17, 2017

 

[Sola1517]

Many non-Christians in the world, including many Muslims, equate these pictures with Christianity:

Both of these views are out of ignorance of what these religions teach and what their followers believe, and extremists from both sides exploit this ignorance to further their agendas.

Mmm, mmm, mmm. Smh

Do you know what kind of church is on the left?

 

[JosephZ]

Mmm, mmm, mmm. Smh

Do you know what kind of church is on the left?

I have no idea what denomination of the church is, it's certainly not a Christ-centered church, that much is certain.

According to the caption under the picture in this article, it's located in Oregon. Revisiting the preacher who used Christianity to revive the Ku Klux Klan

 

[Joyousperson]

99.99% of Muslims that answered in support of the use of violence against civilians will never act out in violence themselves. We know this to be true, because that's what we are seeing today, and have been seeing historically.

Will NEVER act out violence?
If 25% of Muslims supports martyrdom, then we have a pool of 400 million!! POTENTIAL martyrs and supporters.

You don't seem the understand the criticalness of the above % and numbers.
As I had stated it only took 18++ to do a 911 and a lone wolf can create hell of a terror.
The extreme possibility is these martyrs could even exterminate the human species given WMDs are cheaper and easier to access and that Islam don't give much concern for earthly life in preference for paradise.

And that's pretty much the number of Muslims who belong to Islamic extremists groups in the world today. That number has been stagnant for several years now and there are no indications that that number is growing in any significant way.

Note 160,000 of the extreme of the extremists is a serious number, but in reality it is more than that.
What is critical here is the permanent ethos/spirit of evil malignant elements from the ideology of Islam leveraged on salvation that prevails.

It is only because of the pressures of the governments from the non-Muslim world that is putting pressure on the extremist Muslims after the horror of ISIS.
As such the extremists has gone underground and breeding more and more. There is no way you can know the numbers are decreasing.

What is most obvious the terror attacks are still continuing as driven by the ideology of Islam.

Btw, the terror attacks are the glaring and serious ones, but there is a whole gamut and range of evil and violent acts all over the world from Muslims governments, groups and individuals.

Keep in mind that 9/11 was a "Black Swan" event. There had never been an attack like it before, and due to advances in counter terrorism strategies, there will likely never be another. Even in countries where Islamic terrorists have had pretty much a free reign, there has not been an attack that even comes close to scale of what took place on 9/11.

911 may be one-off in terms of planes flying into skyscrapers. The terrorists would be stupid to repeat such a similar pattern of evil.
Note there an infinite ways of killing innocent Muslims you can bet they will think of more innovative methods the authorities are not likely to think of.

Note after 911, there was the advent of ISIS which killed thousands.

There will other surprising terror methods to come.

Yes, it only takes one lone wolf to create chaos. It only took one man to park a truck packed with explosives next to a building in Oklahoma City to kill 168 and injure close to 700 people. That individual was radicalized by a right-wing ideology. This is the ideology that people in the west need to be more concerned about.

Strawman and deflection again!
I stated all types of terror attacks must be condemned.
The topic of this OP is related to Islamic terror attacks.

In any case you are supporting my point, ideologies with evil and malignant elements [e.g. Islam and others] are dangerous and they must be got rid off.

What is very critical in this discussion is the ideology of Islam is inherent a very dangerous ideology that inspire the evil prone Muslims (SOME) to commit terrible evil and violence in the name of the religion.
ALL Muslims are innocent victims of the ideology of Islam.

 

[Joyousperson]

Let's look at that poll a little closer. I want you to look at the actual wording of the question that appears in the small print at the bottom.

The small print is the question asked and note only Muslims were questioned in that poll.

View attachment 256591

Notice it says "Suicide bombing AND other forms of violence."
A similar question was asked in the United States, and not surprisingly, the number of around 25% is very similar. What some might find surprising though is that it was Muslims who were the least likely of the groups to support violence against civilians.

The point is the killing of innocent non-Muslims as driven by the evil and violent elements within the ideology of Islam.
It does not matter it is in the form of suicide bombing or otherwise.
Note the evil and violent acts of Boko Haram and others who not focus much on suicide bombing.

If in the USA, it is not unlikely we will get the fuller truth from Muslims in their support of violence.

View attachment 256584
Also, if you go to a more detailed report on the poll you linked to, you will find that support for violence against civilians is on the decline.

More than a decade after the 9/11 attacks and after hundreds of high profile attacks on civilians, the percentage of Muslims who say suicide bombing is often or sometimes justified has fallen in many of the countries surveyed. For instance, in 2002, 74% of Lebanese Muslims said suicide bombing was often or sometimes justified. But in the wake of well-publicized attacks, such as the 2005 assassination of Prime Minister Hariri, support has fallen to just 29% today.

In Jordan, which experienced a devastating sequence of terrorist attacks on three hotels in Amman in 2005, support for the tactic among Muslims has fallen from 57% before those attacks to 15% today. A similar trend is found in Pakistan, where suicide bombing was falling out of favor with Muslims even before the attack on former Benazir Bhutto which ended her life in 2007. A decade ago, 41% of Pakistani Muslims said attacks on civilians were justified, but that has fallen to just 3% today.

As recent as last year, 62% of Palestinian Muslims said that suicide bombing was at least sometimes justified, but that support has fallen 16 percentage points since 2013. This tracks with increased negative opinions toward extremist groups among Palestinians in the last year. Concerns about Islamic Extremism on the Rise in Middle East

It seems your fears of the extremist brand of Islam, or "true Islam" as you like to call it isn't catching on among the Majority of the world's Muslim population.

It's also important to note that terrorism has been dropping significantly since 2014. This is primarily because of the larger groups being degraded in recent years, but since there are no signs of any other jihadist organizations filling the void, it shows that your fear of Islamic extremism encompassing the globe and bringing chaos to a global scale is unwarranted.

View attachment 256581
https://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/

In 2015 total terrorist attacks decreased by 11.5 percent and total terrorism-related deaths by 12.7 percent.

In 2016, we saw a further 9.2 percent decrease in attacks and 10.2 percent decline in total terrorism-related deaths.

The downward trend continued in 2017, the most recent data available, with a 19.8 percent drop in attacks and a 24.2 percent decline in fatalities.

In Western Europe and the United States, total terrorist attacks are down sharply from the 1970s. In 2017, Western Europe accounted for only 2.7 percent of worldwide attacks and the United States for less than 1 percent of attacks.

Taken together, these 36 months have witnessed the single largest three-year decline in attacks and fatalities since the Global Terrorism Database began in 1970 – nearly a half century ago.

This trend continued into 2018:

A new study by a defense analysis company indicates there was a 33 percent drop in global terror attacks in 2018, and terrorism fatalities fell to a 10-year low. Jane's has been issuing its reports since 2009. It said the 2018 study showed the lowest fatality numbers since it began issuing the report 10 years ago.

Since 2014, there has been a 60 to 70% decline in terrorist attacks worldwide in just the past 4 years. There has also been fewer attacks in the first quarter of 2019 than there were in the first quarter of 2018, so it appears this trend is continuing.


Fortunately Brunei has reversed it's decision. Brunei says it won't enforce gay death penalty after backlash - Reuters But it was a result of Brunei's close relationship with Saudi Arabia and Wahhabism: Brunei steps back to the stoning age Sultanate caves into oil money by introducing Saudi-Wahhabi values of Shariah law

Also, these types of barbaric laws are not exclusive to Islamic countries. The Christian country of Nigeria recently tried to enact legislation to impose the death penalty for homosexuals. This was supported by evangelical Christian groups in the west. Kenya, another Christian country had lawmakers introduce a bill to make stoning to death of homosexuals the law of the land. This too had the support of some fringe evangelicals in the west.


How so when 99.99% of the world's Muslim population isn't involved in violent jihad? That is proof positive that Islam doesn't teach what you claim it does.


I'm not saying that Islamic terrorism isn't a global problem, it most certainly is. It's also why we have incorporated Countering Violent Extremism into our ministry here in Mindanao. So I'm not trying to sugar coat the problem at all, I'm just trying to ease your fears of this evil.

But your fears that Islamic ideology may someday "exterminate the human species" are not based on any type of reality. If it were such a grave threat, we would have seen the effects of it before now.


Just because an individual may hold an extreme point of view, doesn't mean they will resort to violence. In fact most extremist are non-violent. In 1,400 years less than 1% of those who profess to be Muslims adhere to an extremist brand of Islam, so your projection of 10% is unlikely to ever be reached at any point in the future. It's more likely the earth will be destroyed by an asteroid or a nuclear exchange between the world's super powers will wipe out much of the world's population before 10% of the world's Muslims become Islamic extremists and/or start acting out in violence.

You are claiming the support by Muslims for terrorism had decreased significantly overall.
I disagree.
Even if there is a reduction to 25%, the numbers are still very significant, i.e. 25% means a pool of 400 million evil prone Muslims.

One critical point to note is the evil and malignant elements within the ideology of Islam leveraged to trigger PRIMAL impulses of the existential dilemma in relation to salvation.
Thus is not only evil prone Muslims who are susceptible to be triggered to commit evil but even the most good person can be triggered with evil. There are so many cases of goody-two-shoes and the best behaved person suddenly appearing in TV as a suicide bomber, to the surprise of their friends, relatives, parents, etc.

Not all terrorism is Islamic in nature. The increase in terrorism in the Philippines is a direct response to historical and current injustices committed against the countries indigenous populations. Terrorist groups have been exploiting these injustices to furter their own agendas. The majority of terrorist incidents in the Philippines are carried out by the New People's Army, a Communist terror group, which has a significant amount of support from the Christian population and many of it's leaders are Christians.

View attachment 256613
Global Terrorism Database

The New People's Army— the armed unit of the Communist Party of the Philippines—was responsible for most of the casualities, or 35-percent of the total deaths, followed by the Abu Sayyaf group responsible for 18-percent of the deaths and the Maute group, responsible for 8 percent of deaths ascribed to terrorism.

From an article on a recent attack:

...the NPAs were led by a certain Christian Pastor of the Guerilla Front 33 of the NPA Southern Mindanao Regional Command (SMRC).

An older article:

Nuns and priests working with the communists divide church... ''They begin to see God as a historical process, Christ as a liberator and faith becomes commitment to the Communist Party. ''It used to be the church said killing could only be justified in self-defense,'' the priest said. ''But in our case, where there is what we call structural injustice, we believe you don't have to wait for the other person to kill you first before you kill them.''

The NPA is the most active group here in the Davao region:

• NPA official killed in an encounter in Davao del Norte -- 15 Apr 2019
• 2 killed as Army, NPA clash in Davao del Sur -- April 6, 2019
• 1 killed as troops, NPA clash in Davao City -- March 23, 2019
• Cops, soldiers clash with suspected NPA rebels in Davao City beach -- November 26, 2018
• 2 NPA members fall, 14 others escape in Davao City -- September 22, 2018
• 3 soldiers killed in clash with NPA -- August 3, 2018
• Soldiers kill 2 NPA rebels, 1 a minor, in Davao City clash -- June 30, 2018
• 300 families flee homes in Davao del Sur as troops, NPA clash -- February 25, 2017
• AFP-NPA clashes in Davao City on Thursday: 5 killed, 15 injured -- Feb. 17, 2017

Agree not all terrorists are from Islamists.
You cannot deny terror attacks from Islamists in Phillippines had increased and with greater intensity over the recent years and it should be evident from empirical evidence within your knowledge.

The contrast with the NPA is their ideology cannot be in lined with Christianity in whatever ways, because of the overriding pacifist maxim of love, even your enemies, give the other cheek, and the likes from the NT.

The ideology of Islam on the other hand condone the killing of even innocent non-Muslims [within very vague conditions, even cartoons] merely on the basis they are disbelievers. The point is no human on earth have the divine authority to stop SOME [400 million] Muslims from interpreting the verses literally so as to be ensure of a more secure passage to paradise with eternal life.

One critical point you need to note is, when a person is triggered with fear of inevitable mortality, they will do the most extreme in order to be assured of immortality and salvation.
This is why the ideology of Islam is very dangerous because in exchange for immortality and salvation, the Quran included very malignant and evil elements which all Muslims must comply with to gain access to heaven.

Note I had argued,
DNA wise ALL humans has the potential to commit evil and 20% are naturally born with an active evil tendency.
Thus 20% of Muslims [300 million] will feast on the God sanctioned evil elements within the Quran and thus existing glaring evil % violence and it potential existential threat to humanity.

 

[JosephZ]

Will NEVER act out violence?
If 25% of Muslims supports martyrdom, then we have a pool of 400 million!! POTENTIAL martyrs and supporters.

You don't seem the understand the criticalness of the above % and numbers.
As I had stated it only took 18++ to do a 911 and a lone wolf can create hell of a terror.
The extreme possibility is these martyrs could even exterminate the human species given WMDs are cheaper and easier to access and that Islam don't give much concern for earthly life in preference for paradise....

911 may be one-off in terms of planes flying into skyscrapers. The terrorists would be stupid to repeat such a similar pattern of evil.
Note there an infinite ways of killing innocent Muslims you can bet they will think of more innovative methods the authorities are not likely to think of.

Note after 911, there was the advent of ISIS which killed thousands.

There will other surprising terror methods to come.

Did you know that these fears you have of the future are actually fears of things that have already happened. You’re afraid that certain things that have happened in the past will happen again or even worse. Your mind has been filled with the images of 9/11, the recent bombings in Sri Lanka, negative stories in the media, and anti-propagandists who have been exploiting these events.

We can’t fear the future because we don’t know what the future holds. So all of these doom and gloom scenarios you share are based on fear and nothing more. Neither you nor I can predict the future. All the situations you have presented are far more complex than anyone can possibly calculate, so there's really no reason to entertain such projections.

Note 160,000 of the extreme of the extremists is a serious number, but in reality it is more than that.

What source of evidence can you provide shows where the number of the extreme of the Islamic extremists is higher than 160,000?

Based on the information provided by the US State Department, the number of known extremists who belong to or have sworn their allegiance to terrorist groups of all ideologies is less than 200,000 world wide.

What is most obvious the terror attacks are still continuing as driven by the ideology of Islam.

And they will continue forever, that is just something we have to accept while living in this world. But Islamic extremist aren't the only people carrying out terrorist attacks in the world. You keep singling out Islam for some reason. Prior to 2010, 90% of terrorist attacks worldwide were carried out by extremists who were not Islamic extremist. Who knows what the ideology behind most terrorism in the world will be in the future? It could be left-wing, right-wing, communist, environmental, etc... Throughout history the primary motivation for acts of terrorism has changed from time to time and it will continue to do so. Islamic terrorism on the scale we have seen since 9/11 is a recent phenomenon and all indications are it's on the decline. Hopefully that trend will continue.

In any case you are supporting my point, ideologies with evil and malignant elements [e.g. Islam and others] are dangerous and they must be got rid off.

What is very critical in this discussion is the ideology of Islam is inherent a very dangerous ideology that inspire the evil prone Muslims (SOME) to commit terrible evil and violence in the name of the religion.
ALL Muslims are innocent victims of the ideology of Islam.

You believe that Islam is an evil and dangerous ideology, but better than 99% of Muslims in the world live in harmony with their neighbors and have nothing to do with violent jihad. That would not be possible if what you believe is true.

As a Christian I try my best to judge everyone and every situation righteously. That said, I have seen and heard countless Muslims condemn terrorism, by my own observations I can see where better than 99% of Muslims live in peace and harmony with their neighbors, I have witnessed the kindness and generosity of Muslims in different parts of the world. I, like many others, witnessed the events of 9/11 as they unfolded live on TV and I have also been on the scene of a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists that killed and injured many people. I have held the hand of a crying child who watched as the man who shielded her from the blast got ripped to shreds; so I have also seen the evil that has been carried out in the name of Islam. So how should I judge this religion and it's followers? By the kindness and the peaceful lifestyles of the vast majority of Muslims, or the evil acts of the tiny minority of extremists?

The small print is the question asked and note only Muslims were questioned in that poll.

Yes, that is who the poll was targeting.

If in the USA, it is not unlikely we will get the fuller truth from Muslims in their support of violence.

Why do you feel Muslims wouldn't answer the poll truthfully?

Also, why aren't you concerned about the 26-27% of Christians in America who answered that poll who say they support acts of terrorism against innocent civilians?

There have been two serious attacks in just the past six months in the US where the Bible has been quoted by terrorists to justify their actions.

“Jews are the children of Satan. (John 8:44) — —- the Lord Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.” -- Robert Bowers, gunman who killed 11 people at a synagogue in Pittsburgh, PA

I did not choose to be a Christian. The Father chose me. The Son saved me. And the Spirit keeps me... My God does not take kindly to the destruction of His creation. Especially one of the most beautiful, intelligent, and innovative races that He has created. Least of all at the hands of one of the most ugly, sinful, deceitful, cursed, and corrupt. My God understands why I did what I did.

“I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan” (Revelation 2:9).

“Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee” (Revelation 3:9). -- John Earnest, gunman who entered a synagogue in California killing 1 person and injuring 3 others.

You are claiming the support by Muslims for terrorism had decreased significantly overall.
I disagree.

You are free to disagree, but the evidence shows otherwise.

You cannot deny terror attacks from Islamists in Phillippines had increased and with greater intensity over the recent years and it should be evident from empirical evidence within your knowledge.

Individual acts of terrorism yes, but in the years between 1970 and 2014 Islamic militants belonging to the Moro National Liberation front and the Moro Islamic Liberation Front were at war with the Philippine government. The conflict resulted in anywhere from 120,000 and 150,000 deaths and the displacement of millions. Despite the recent increase in attacks by the smaller extremist groups, things have been relatively peaceful compared to years past.

The contrast with the NPA is their ideology cannot be in lined with Christianity in whatever ways, because of the overriding pacifist maxim of love, even your enemies, give the other cheek, and the likes from the NT.

The NPA/Communist ideology is a form of Christian Communism like what is found in Latin America. This is why you see many of it's members who also belong to the Church.

Here again is the quote from a priest I gave in my earlier post:

''They begin to see God as a historical process, Christ as a liberator and faith becomes commitment to the Communist Party. ''It used to be the church said killing could only be justified in self-defense,'' the priest said. ''But in our case, where there is what we call structural injustice, we believe you don't have to wait for the other person to kill you first before you kill them.''

That is eerily similar to what the synagogue shooter in California said in his manifesto:

"Surely the Bible calls for you to love your enemies? Is it lawful to let a thief murder my friend instead of killing the thief to prevent the death of my friend? To ask such a question is to answer it. It is not loving towards your friend to let him be murdered. It is not loving towards your enemy—the thief—to let him murder." -- John Earnest

Muslims and Islamic extremists read the exact same Qur'an and Islamic texts, yet they come to different conclusions as to what they teach. The same with Christians and the Bible. You are always going to have a certain element in every religion who twist the scriptures to justify their actions, even the most evil of actions.

In both Christianity and Islam, the vast majority of people who flow these religions live peaceful lives. They are kind, compassionate, and generous people. This is how you judge what these religions teach. You don't take the actions of the less than 1% and the words of propagandists to reach a just decision. The actions of Muslims around the world should be proof enough for any reasonable person to conclude that Islam doesn't teach what the extremists, terrorist, and anti-Islamic propagandists claim.

When people start believing that Islam teaches Muslims to hate non-Muslims and are commanded to kill them, then the terrorists and anti-Islamic propagandists have accomplished their goal of creating division, fear, and hatred between Muslims and non-Muslims. If you want to know how real Muslims feel about violence and terrorism, read some of the thousands of examples found here: Muslims Condemn

One critical point you need to note is, when a person is triggered with fear of inevitable mortality, they will do the most extreme in order to be assured of immortality and salvation.
This is why the ideology of Islam is very dangerous because in exchange for immortality and salvation, the Quran included very malignant and evil elements which all Muslims must comply with to gain access to heaven.

Islam teaches that suicide, killing of civilians, women, children, disabled, elderly, and the innocent is forbidden. Terrorism and acts of aggression against non-Muslims is not a part of Islamic teaching. The extremists and anti-Islamic propagandists want you to believe that it is, but better than 99% of Muslims in the world will tell you otherwise.

Thus 20% of Muslims [300 million] will feast on the God sanctioned evil elements within the Quran and thus existing glaring evil % violence and it potential existential threat to humanity.

Once again, actions speak louder than words. Why hasn't this happened before today, some 1,400+ years after Islam was founded?

 

[Joyousperson]

Did you know that these fears you have of the future are actually fears of things that have already happened. You’re afraid that certain things that have happened in the past will happen again or even worse. Your mind has been filled with the images of 9/11, the recent bombings in Sri Lanka, negative stories in the media, and anti-propagandists who have been exploiting these events.

We can’t fear the future because we don’t know what the future holds. So all of these doom and gloom scenarios you share are based on fear and nothing more. Neither you nor I can predict the future. All the situations you have presented are far more complex than anyone can possibly calculate, so there's really no reason to entertain such projections.

Hey, aren't you familiar with the famous, 'prevention is better than cure'.

It is very natural for ordinary humans to forecast the future based on what has happened and experienced.
This is more critical for evil and violence that has occurred and thus their potential and predictable threat.

There are times where we have to be indifferent to the future, like the lilies in the fields, but it would be stupid to ignore potential and very likely threats to humanity, e.g. predictable evil and violence from the ideology of Islam in this OP and others off topic matters.

What source of evidence can you provide shows where the number of the extreme of the Islamic extremists is higher than 160,000?

Based on the information provided by the US State Department, the number of known extremists who belong to or have sworn their allegiance to terrorist groups of all ideologies is less than 200,000 world wide.

It is very commonly reported within the psychological community, 1% of people are psychopaths, thus 16 million of Muslims are psychopathic.

Notably, as evolutionary scientists frame it, any heritable trait in the population at a low frequency (like psychopathy at about 1% of the general population, see Neumann & Hare, 2008)
Blog

Thus if 20% of these 1% psychopaths are malignant, i.e. killers and very violent individual, that would be 3.2 million [16 x 20%].

Therefore my 160,000 of extremists Muslims is very conservative.
Note you stated the US Govt estimated <200,000, so my 160,000 is a good estimation.
In reality, the very serious psychopathic Muslims are likely to >10 million.

And they will continue forever, that is just something we have to accept while living in this world. But Islamic extremist aren't the only people carrying out terrorist attacks in the world. You keep singling out Islam for some reason. Prior to 2010, 90% of terrorist attacks worldwide were carried out by extremists who were not Islamic extremist. Who knows what the ideology behind most terrorism in the world will be in the future? It could be left-wing, right-wing, communist, environmental, etc... Throughout history the primary motivation for acts of terrorism has changed from time to time and it will continue to do so. Islamic terrorism on the scale we have seen since 9/11 is a recent phenomenon and all indications are it's on the decline. Hopefully that trend will continue.

Note my take that ALL evil and violent acts must be addressed as mentioned in the other thread.
Even one of such act must be addressed, thus we have to address the evil and violent acts committed by SOME Muslims as inpired directly by Islam. Therefore you should not deflect this Islam related evil and violence by the usual "what about this and that" which is fallacious.

Btw, terrorism by Islamists is more noticeable, but note I am referring to the whole gamut and range of evil and violent acts committed on non-Muslims, i.e. oppression of minorities, the aggression of domination over the rest of humanity, the future threats to humanity, etc.

 

[Joyousperson]

You believe that Islam is an evil and dangerous ideology, but better than 99% of Muslims in the world live in harmony with their neighbors and have nothing to do with violent jihad. That would not be possible if what you believe is true.

Your 99% is very dishonest.
Note I stated all evil and violent acts must be addressed but to topic we are discussing Islamic related evil and violent acts.

It is so common to hear of Muslims attacking other Muslims in Pakistan, Middle East countries and elswhere.

What we should be more concern with Islam is the inherent ethos of evil and violence within the ideology of Islam which can push the vulnerable to commit evil and violence upon non-Muslims and other Muslim at the slightest evidence of threat and the inherent aggression of Muslims to dominate the world.
World domination is typical with Christianity as the Bible have been inspiring all Christians to do so [thus your presence in Phillippines], but fortunately the Christian ethos is that of love while in Islam domination is based on no-holds-barred evil and violence.

As a Christian I try my best to judge everyone and every situation righteously. That said, I have seen and heard countless Muslims condemn terrorism, by my own observations I can see where better than 99% of Muslims live in peace and harmony with their neighbors, I have witnessed the kindness and generosity of Muslims in different parts of the world. I, like many others, witnessed the events of 9/11 as they unfolded live on TV and I have also been on the scene of a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists that killed and injured many people. I have held the hand of a crying child who watched as the man who shielded her from the blast got ripped to shreds; so I have also seen the evil that has been carried out in the name of Islam. So how should I judge this religion and it's followers? By the kindness and the peaceful lifestyles of the vast majority of Muslims, or the evil acts of the tiny minority of extremists?

It is obvious the majority Muslims are good people because they are being good human and not because they are good Muslims who comply with their covenanted terms which include evil and violent commands.

Note in the other thread, I stated we should not even put the primary blame on those extremist Muslims who kill for they are actually innocent victims in their quest for salvation and eternal life.

It is the ethos of Islam that is the ultimate root cause that inspire the naive Muslims to kill in compliance with the evil laden verses in the Quran with the hope a greater security to paradise.

.

Why do you feel Muslims wouldn't answer the poll truthfully?

Also, why aren't you concerned about the 26-27% of Christians in America who answered that poll who say they support acts of terrorism against innocent civilians?

Most people would not admit to their evil acts.
The 26-27% of Christians in America is OFF TOPIC and in any case they are not stating for Christianity or as true Christians in those cases.

There have been two serious attacks in just the past six months in the US where the Bible has been quoted by terrorists to justify their actions.

“Jews are the children of Satan. (John 8:44) — —- the Lord Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.” -- Robert Bowers, gunman who killed 11 people at a synagogue in Pittsburgh, PA

I did not choose to be a Christian. The Father chose me. The Son saved me. And the Spirit keeps me... My God does not take kindly to the destruction of His creation. Especially one of the most beautiful, intelligent, and innovative races that He has created. Least of all at the hands of one of the most ugly, sinful, deceitful, cursed, and corrupt. My God understands why I did what I did.

“I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan” (Revelation 2:9).

“Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee” (Revelation 3:9). -- John Earnest, gunman who entered a synagogue in California killing 1 person and injuring 3 others.

Such evil acts must be addressed, but they are off topic here. In any case they are not acting for Christianity or as true Christians in those cases.

The NPA/Communist ideology is a form of Christian Communism like what is found in Latin America. This is why you see many of it's members who also belong to the Church.

Here again is the quote from a priest I gave in my earlier post:

''They begin to see God as a historical process, Christ as a liberator and faith becomes commitment to the Communist Party. ''It used to be the church said killing could only be justified in self-defense,'' the priest said. ''But in our case, where there is what we call structural injustice, we believe you don't have to wait for the other person to kill you first before you kill them.''

That is eerily similar to what the synagogue shooter in California said in his manifesto:

"Surely the Bible calls for you to love your enemies? Is it lawful to let a thief murder my friend instead of killing the thief to prevent the death of my friend? To ask such a question is to answer it. It is not loving towards your friend to let him be murdered. It is not loving towards your enemy—the thief—to let him murder." -- John Earnest

I have responded and counter the above sort of response many times, i.e.
Such evil acts must be addressed, but they are off topic here. In any case they are not acting for Christianity or as true Christians in those cases.

Muslims and Islamic extremists read the exact same Qur'an and Islamic texts, yet they come to different conclusions as to what they teach. The same with Christians and the Bible. You are always going to have a certain element in every religion who twist the scriptures to justify their actions, even the most evil of actions.

In both Christianity and Islam, the vast majority of people who flow these religions live peaceful lives. They are kind, compassionate, and generous people. This is how you judge what these religions teach. You don't take the actions of the less than 1% and the words of propagandists to reach a just decision. The actions of Muslims around the world should be proof enough for any reasonable person to conclude that Islam doesn't teach what the extremists, terrorist, and anti-Islamic propagandists claim.

In the case of Christians who committed evil and violent acts, note the same;
Such evil acts must be addressed, but they are off topic here. In any case they are not acting for Christianity or as true Christians in those cases.

But in the case of Muslims, they are inspired directly by the ideology of Islam. As such Islam must be blamed and proper actions need to be taken.

When people start believing that Islam teaches Muslims to hate non-Muslims and are commanded to kill them, then the terrorists and anti-Islamic propagandists have accomplished their goal of creating division, fear, and hatred between Muslims and non-Muslims. If you want to know how real Muslims feel about violence and terrorism, read some of the thousands of examples found here: Muslims Condemn

Nope, actually it will favor Christianity the peaceful religion.
In theory, I would propose all existing Muslims convert to Christianity and I bet there will be no more Islamic driven evil and violent acts inspired directly by the ideology of Islam.
Religious believers will continue to commit evil and violent acts, but we cannot blame the respective religion because none of them condone their believers to kill non-believers.

Islam teaches that suicide, killing of civilians, women, children, disabled, elderly, and the innocent is forbidden. Terrorism and acts of aggression against non-Muslims is not a part of Islamic teaching. The extremists and anti-Islamic propagandists want you to believe that it is, but better than 99% of Muslims in the world will tell you otherwise.

I disagree.
If you are well verse with the Quran and supporting texts, you will note 99% of the evil acts committed by Muslims can be justified with verses from the Quran in one way or another. Note the quote re I.S.I.S beliefs I had linked from the Mirror.
The point is no Muslim will dare to reinterpret to their personal views deliberately, else it is bidah, thus going to hell.

Once again, actions speak louder than words. Why hasn't this happened before today, some 1,400+ years after Islam was founded?

I have responded to the same in another post where I stated you are very ignorant to the history of terror by Islamists inspired by the Quranic verses.

 

[JosephZ]

Hey, aren't you familiar with the famous, 'prevention is better than cure'.

Are you suggesting something like this? China putting minority Muslims in 'concentration camps,' U.S. says - Reuters

It is very natural for ordinary humans to forecast the future based on what has happened and experienced.
This is more critical for evil and violence that has occurred and thus their potential and predictable threat.

There are times where we have to be indifferent to the future, like the lilies in the fields, but it would be stupid to ignore potential and very likely threats to humanity, e.g. predictable evil and violence from the ideology of Islam in this OP and others off topic matters.

Ok then, let's take a look at historical and global trends when it comes to terrorism once again:

In 2015 terrorist attacks decreased by 11.5 percent

In 2016 terrorist attacks decreased by 9.2 percent

In 2017 terrorist attacks decreased by 19.8 percent

This trend continued in 2018: A new study by a defense analysis company indicates there was a 33 percent drop in global terror attacks in 2018, and terrorism fatalities fell to a 10-year low.

Prior to 2010, only around 10% of terrorist attacks were carried out by Islamic extremists. Between 2012 and today that percentage grew to greater than 50%. Since 2014 when acts of terrorism reached an historic high, there has been a steady and significant drop in terrorism each year since (60 to 70%).

Based on the above, what leads you to believe that things are going to get worse when the trend shows things are getting better?

History tells us that Islamic terrorism at the levels we are seeing today is a recent phenomenon.

Whose to say Islamic terrorism will not reach the pre-2010 levels again when it only accounted for 10% or terrorist attacks worldwide at some point in the future?

It is so common to hear of Muslims attacking other Muslims in Pakistan, Middle East countries and elswhere.

Yes, it's no secret that Muslims are the primary victims of Islamic terrorism and that better than 70% of terrorist attacks occur in that region of the world. It's Islamic terrorists who are responsible for killing most Muslims in those countries, not Muslims.

Your 99% is very dishonest.
Note I stated all evil and violent acts must be addressed but to topic we are discussing Islamic related evil and violent acts.

If you're going to say that my 99% is dishonest, then you are going to have to provide some evidence that shows where greater than 1% of those proclaiming to be Muslims are participating in evil and violent acts.

World domination is typical with Christianity as the Bible have been inspiring all Christians to do so [thus your presence in Phillippines], but fortunately the Christian ethos is that of love while in Islam domination is based on no-holds-barred evil and violence.

Christianity initially came to the Philippines by the sword and hundreds of thousands were killed and millions more suffered. This effort to forcefully "Christianize" Mindanao continued into the 1960's. There wasn't much love in how Christianity was introduced here. This was also the case in Much of North and South America, the Caribbean Islands and other parts of the world.

It is obvious the majority Muslims are good people because they are being good human and not because they are good Muslims who comply with their covenanted terms which include evil and violent commands.

Islam teaches do not kill, do not lie, do not steal, to be charitable, etc... There are not any commands to commit violent acts against others in Islam, unless it's in self defense, then Muslims are allowed to fight back.

Most people would not admit to their evil acts.
The 26-27% of Christians in America is OFF TOPIC and in any case they are not stating for Christianity or as true Christians in those cases.

Let's look at that poll again.

So what you are saying is that the 11% of Muslims that said acts of terrorism against civilians is sometimes justified are telling the truth and many of the 89% who said terrorism isn't justified are not being honest. While all of the 26 to 27% of the Christians who said they supported acts of terrorism are not really Christians? I just need some clarification.

Such evil acts must be addressed, but they are off topic here. In any case they are not acting for Christianity or as true Christians in those cases.

I have responded and counter the above sort of response many times, i.e.
Such evil acts must be addressed, but they are off topic here. In any case they are not acting for Christianity or as true Christians in those cases.

In the case of Christians who committed evil and violent acts, note the same;
Such evil acts must be addressed, but they are off topic here. In any case they are not acting for Christianity or as true Christians in those cases.

But in the case of Muslims, they are inspired directly by the ideology of Islam. As such Islam must be blamed and proper actions need to be taken.

So you are saying when people who claim to be Christians use the Bible to justify their acts of violence they are not really Christians, but when someone who claims to be a Muslim uses the Qur'an to justify their actions, they are a true Muslim.

Does that sound like you are using fair judgement? Especially when the vast majority of Muslims will say exactly the same thing you did about Christian extremists? They will tell you that in the case of Muslims who commit evil and violent acts, they are not acting for Islam or as true Muslims in those cases.

Nope, actually it will favor Christianity the peaceful religion.

You are going to have to explain to me how terrorists and anti-Islamic propagandists creating division, fear, and hatred between Muslims and non-Muslims is going to favor Christianity.

I disagree.
If you are well verse with the Quran and supporting texts, you will note 99% of the evil acts committed by Muslims can be justified with verses from the Quran in one way or another. Note the quote re I.S.I.S beliefs I had linked from the Mirror.
The point is no Muslim will dare to reinterpret to their personal views deliberately, else it is bidah, thus going to hell.

And yet almost every Muslim in the world from the individual Muslim on the street to the most well known Islamic clerics and scholars do not interpret the Qur'an in the same way the Islamic extremist do. That one fact should tell you that your views on Islam are distorted. ISIS doesn't speak for the worlds 1.8+ billion Muslims in the world.

I have responded to the same in another post where I stated you are very ignorant to the history of terror by Islamists inspired by the Quranic verses.

Can you provide some of your sources on the history of terror by Islamist inspired by the Qur'an? I'm particularly interested in the period between 1600 and 2001.

 

[Joyousperson]

Are you suggesting something like this? China putting minority Muslims in 'concentration camps,' U.S. says - Reuters

I am suggesting in general, prevention is always better than cure.

It is not 'concentration camps' and you are being dishonest in trying to be rhetorical to take the readers mind to the concentration camps of the Nazis, Japanese, and others in WWW II.

It is so evident, wherever there are Muslims that are bound to be evil and violent acts committed by SOME Muslims who are inspired or even 'compelled' by their covenanted terms to commit those evil and violent acts.

What China is doing is resorting to the most optimal strategy to deal with the inherent potential of evil and violence from any Muslim community and more evidently from that part of the country.

The strategies adopted are not inhumane but targeted toward educating and aligning the Muslims to be more humane and to be more aware of the evil and violent elements within their own religion. These Muslims were sent for education and training of skills so that they do not end with poverty, jobless, etc.

Ok then, let's take a look at historical and global trends when it comes to terrorism once again:

View attachment 256707
In 2015 terrorist attacks decreased by 11.5 percent

In 2016 terrorist attacks decreased by 9.2 percent

In 2017 terrorist attacks decreased by 19.8 percent

This trend continued in 2018: A new study by a defense analysis company indicates there was a 33 percent drop in global terror attacks in 2018, and terrorism fatalities fell to a 10-year low.

Prior to 2010, only around 10% of terrorist attacks were carried out by Islamic extremists. Between 2012 and today that percentage grew to greater than 50%. Since 2014 when acts of terrorism reached an historic high, there has been a steady and significant drop in terrorism each year since (60 to 70%).

Based on the above, what leads you to believe that things are going to get worse when the trend shows things are getting better?

History tells us that Islamic terrorism at the levels we are seeing today is a recent phenomenon.

Whose to say Islamic terrorism will not reach the pre-2010 levels again when it only accounted for 10% or terrorist attacks worldwide at some point in the future?

Note again, the emphasis is ALL evil and violence must be addressed down to the individual acts.

I disagree. I believe the number of terrorist attacks will increase in general especially the more serious ones and the possibility of the extermination of the human species.

Note again, I am interested in the whole gamut and range of evil and violent acts of various degrees. The mentioned of terrorist attacks is only because they are more visible and posed a more obvious immediate greater threat.

The fact is, as long as there is Islam and Muslims, there will be evil and violent committed by SOME [ a pool of 300 million!!!] in compliance with the covenanted terms within the ideology of Islam.

Yes, it's no secret that Muslims are the primary victims of Islamic terrorism and that better than 70% of terrorist attacks occur in that region of the world. It's Islamic terrorists who are responsible for killing most Muslims in those countries, not Muslims.

Note again, the emphasis is ALL evil and violence must be addressed down to the individual acts.

Note again, I am interested in the whole gamut and range of evil and violent acts of various degrees. The mentioned of terrorist attacks is only because they are more visible and posed a more obvious immediate greater threat.

What we are more concern is the inherent evil and violent ethos within the ideology of Islam and these can be triggered by any Muslim from around the world.

It does not matter which more of which group are killed. What is critical here is the ideology of Islam is driving Muslims to kill innocent human beings for being regardless they are 'Muslims' or non-Muslims.

Note my counter argument, appx 80 millions of Hindus and others were killed in India within the 1000 years of Muslim occupation in India. This is very reasonable and I have also provided a list of massarces [wiki] committed by Muslims in India.

If you're going to say that my 99% is dishonest, then you are going to have to provide some evidence that shows where greater than 1% of those proclaiming to be Muslims are participating in evil and violent acts.

I have already provided a pew poll where on average 17% of Muslims [with a range up to 40-50%] supported evil and violent acts on innocent non-Muslims.

Christianity initially came to the Philippines by the sword and hundreds of thousands were killed and millions more suffered. This effort to forcefully "Christianize" Mindanao continued into the 1960's. There wasn't much love in how Christianity was introduced here. This was also the case in Much of North and South America, the Caribbean Islands and other parts of the world.

Agree and those 'Christians' must be condemned.
But as I had argued many time, they were not wearing their true Christian hats at that time and they are likely be ticked off by God on Judgment Day and you have to leave God to make the wise judgment on this affair.
But note because it is not a true covenant terms of Christianity, those evil and violent acts will not be repeated by other Christians as a Christian doctrine to kill millions as condone by Jesus and God.

On the other hand, Muslims as covenanted will continue to kill non-Muslims in God's name as a divine duty to gain greater security for salvation.

Islam teaches do not kill, do not lie, do not steal, to be charitable, etc... There are not any commands to commit violent acts against others in Islam, unless it's in self defense, then Muslims are allowed to fight back.

The above restraints are not effective in the overall context and ethos of the ideology of Islam.
As I had argued WHO ARE YOU to make the above judgment.
Only Allah can decide on compliance with the covenanted terms and Allah will not appear to Muslims again until Judgment Day.
In the meantime the Muslims will comply with the covenanted terms in the Quran to the best of the ability.

My point is, 20% of Muslims [i.e. a pool of 300 million evil prone Muslims] will comply with the covenanted they believe is true as God's command.
The CRITICAL POINT is this;
No other Muslims and human being can insist they are wrong in killing non-Muslim within the definition of a threat to Islam.
Therefore the killings and range of evil acts will inevitably be committed by SOME Muslims and no one can judge they are wrong.

Let's look at that poll again.

View attachment 256709
So what you are saying is that the 11% of Muslims that said acts of terrorism against civilians is sometimes justified are telling the truth and many of the 89% who said terrorism isn't justified are not being honest. While all of the 26 to 27% of the Christians who said they supported acts of terrorism are not really Christians? I just need some clarification.

I have argued many times already.
Whilst they are Christians in one way, in this particular case, they are not wearing their true Christian hat.

A true Christian must comply with covenanted terms, i.e. the overriding pacifist term of love, even one's enemies, love thy neighbors, give the other cheek and the likes.

In this case these 27% "Christians" cannot be true and complete Christians because they have sinned against God's command.

I bet on Judgment Day, these Christians will face God's wrath and it is up to God to forgive them depending on the circumstances.

So you are saying when people who claim to be Christians use the Bible to justify their acts of violence they are not really Christians, but when someone who claims to be a Muslim uses the Qur'an to justify their actions, they are a true Muslim.

Does that sound like you are using fair judgement? Especially when the vast majority of Muslims will say exactly the same thing you did about Christian extremists? They will tell you that in the case of Muslims who commit evil and violent acts, they are not acting for Islam or as true Muslims in those cases.

Note I have stated many times.
In Christians are exhorted to love their enemies.
The overall ethos of Christianity within the Gospels do not condone the use of violence against non-Christians.
If God condone violence, then God would be contradicting itself?

On the other hand, the covenanted terms of the Muslims, Allah condone evil and violent acts. there is no overriding maxim from Allah to love and not to kill non-Muslims or enemies.

You are going to have to explain to me how terrorists and anti-Islamic propagandists creating division, fear, and hatred between Muslims and non-Muslims is going to favor Christianity.

Obviously the covenanted terms of an overriding pacifist maxim will favor Christianity which imply Christianity itself is not an evil and violent religion.

And yet almost every Muslim in the world from the individual Muslim on the street to the most well known Islamic clerics and scholars do not interpret the Qur'an in the same way the Islamic extremist do. That one fact should tell you that your views on Islam are distorted. ISIS doesn't speak for the worlds 1.8+ billion Muslims in the world.

I noted the point was argued in the cancelled threads.
All the well known Ahadiths compiler and scholars of the past expounded and interpret the Quran in a very literal sense.
Note sunna.com -&nbspSunna Resources and Information.
It is only in modern times where evil and violent acts are commonly condemned that some scholars have given their own spin that the Quran is positive and contain no evil and violent elements. But their opinions are not objective in alignment with the verses in the Quran.

Btw, I have argued, no humans on earth can insist what is right or wrong in the interpretation of the Quranic verses. Thus the literal intepretation of the already perfected Quran from God will likely holds and prevails as the truth of the ideology of Islam.

Can you provide some of your sources on the history of terror by Islamist inspired by the Qur'an? I'm particularly interested in the period between 1600 and 2001.

I have already provided listing and videos of the history of terror committed by Islamists throughout the 1400++ years history of Islam.

I don't have the specifics for the period between 1600 and 2001 but I don't think this specific is relevant.
I am very certain, given the inherent evil and violent ethos of the ideology of Islam, there are evil and violent acts committed by SOME Muslims within 1600 and 2001. I will produce them if you insist.

ETA:
Note this list of Massacres [hundreds] by Muslims and many occurred within 1600 and 2001;

Category:Massacres perpetrated by Muslims - Wikipedia

One of the notable one;

The Armenian Genocide (Armenian: Հայոց ցեղասպանություն,[note 3] Hayots tseghaspanutyun), also known as the Armenian Holocaust,[9] was the Ottoman government's systematic extermination of 1.5 million Armenians,[note 2] mostly citizens within the Ottoman Empire.[10][11] The starting date is conventionally held to be 24 April 1915,