What is you first and last appeal, the Bible or Mrs. White's writings?

[Tigger Boy]

What is your first and last appeal, the Bible or Mrs. White?


It is my understanding that Mrs. White believed her writings were a lesser light to lead readers to the greater light, the Bible. So if my beliefs are strictly Bible based would I be in discord with her writings?


I studied my way into the Adventist faith over forty years ago, when I was in my early thirties, by way of our Revelation Seminars. It was my interest in understanding prophecies of closing events that got me to attend those studies. My interest in those studies continue to this day. I have come to understand it is my spiritual gift/ since it is my greatest interest.


That interest has led me to understand progressive insights outside of what corporate Adventist are willing to consider, because in my years of experience the church will not move passed what Mrs. White understood in 1880, at the time she wrote the GC, one hundred forty four yrs. ago.


Most are aware, without me having to quote her here, that she knew that new light would be forth coming from her time and that nobody should take the position that all our(Adventist) expositions of scripture are without error. Just because our people have held to certain beliefs, this does not make our ideas infallible, as age does not make error into truth. Neither will any true teaching lose anything by close investigation.

It is this counsel that has given me a quilt free conscious to study outside of her own understanding of prophecy. These progressive insights are easily recognized by church leadership and older laity who are well read into the her writings, and are quickly rejected without any investigation, contrary to her explicit counsel.

The reason I am adamant on closing events is that I believe Adventist are just as misinformed as those believing in a secrete rapture. They believe they will be out of here, when the tribulation begins, whereas, Adventist believe most of Revelation is history, except for the mark of the beast and the bowl judgements. which pretty much means, their in the same boat in that they need not understand it. This is a disaster waiting to happen.

I would be amiss if I where not able to share with you some hard facts for you to consider, Following are six prophetic events which the Millerites believed were fulfilled prior to 1844.

The sixth seal opened in 1755, marked by the Lisbon earthquake. (GC 304)
The fifth trumpet sounded in 1299 and the sixth trumpet sounded on August 11, 1840. (GC 335)
The beast that killed the Two Witnesses is France. (GC 268 269)
The Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 are the Old and New Testament. (GC 267)
The beast with seven heads ten horns in Revelation 13 s the papacy in various forms. (GC 439)
The lamb-like beast of Revelation 13 is the United States. (GC 440)

The Adventist church to date still defends these events as being historically fulfilled.

These teachings predate the ministry of Mrs. White. She grew into these views. She was born in 1827, and was twelve years old when William Miller came to her town in 1839, with the end of the world message, that Jesus would return in 1844. This belief naturally required that all pre-Advent prophecies be fulfilled before 1844.

Those Adventists who endured the great disappointment made some important discoveries about progressive truth and God confirmed the accuracy of some of those discoveries through Mrs. White. However, they did not relinquish those prophetic fulfillments above mentioned established by earlier Millerites, and Ellen White was no exception. In 1880 The GC went into circulation in which Mrs. White explains the fulfillment of all six of those prophetic events.

Adventists understanding of the properties of inspiration combined with the GC has halted any serious investigation into what individuals such as I consider progressive truth. These two issues in my opinion is preventing a much improved understanding of Revelations story, even while we are getting closer to closing events.

(In my next post I shall present both Biblical and historical facts.)

 

[Tigger Boy]

I will share the facts around just two of those six fulfillments for your consideration. Please keep in mind the following counsel: Age does not make error into truth. Neither will any true teaching lose anything by close investigation.

According to history, the Turkish empire did not fall on August 11, 1840 as the Milerites claimed. In fact, from 1783 to 1914, the boundaries of the Ottoman Empire were reduced by a series of defeats. The war waged against Turkey in 1840 end in 1841 without significant change. Today, the August 11, 1840 date set by the Millerites is not regarded by historians as an important date in Turkish history. In World War I, Turkey allied with Germany and lost even more territory. In 1923, the Grand National Assembly of Turkey proclaimed Turkey to be a republic and Turkey remains a sovereign nation to this day.

The August 11, 1840 date is reached through a faulty King James translation of scripture that says: “And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.” (Rev. 9:15)

Dr. Josiah Litch, the man that first concluded that the sixth trumpet must occur on August 11, 1840 date, applied the day/year principle to this verse and derived 391 years and 15 days out of the hour, day, month and year mentioned. However, the King James translation of this verse is incorrect! The translation should read: “And the four angels who has been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind.” Greek scholars around the world widely agree that the syntax of Rev. 9:15 points to a specific point in time and is therefore pontellier not the sum of chronological units of time. (See the NIV, NEB, NEV, RSV, and ASV.) In short, this verse does not contain 391 years and 15 days. Rather, this verse points to a specific moment in time!

Dr. Litch failed to just his 391 years, 15 day prophecy with the change of the calendar in October, 1582, when ten days were dropped from the calendar to correct for errors in the Julian calendar. Thus the August 11, 1840 date should be August 21, 1840. And Nothing of historical consequence occurred on that date.

Unknown to Adventists the seven trumpet are yet to be fulfilled. They are shadowed in the Feast of Trumpets in the Old Testament. Which began nine days prior to the Day of Atonement. In like fashion the trumpets of Revelation which are literal events, will begin blowing to arouse and awaken the people on earth to hear the three angel’s messages so that no one needs to be cut off from salvation. God has carefully designed the close of mercy so that anyone desiring to be saved, may be saved.

Lets consider another Millerite declared fulfillment, of which Mrs. White excepted as being fulfilled, the beast that kills the two witnesses is France. (Rev. 11:7) (GC 268,269)

Can we take this interpretation and explain the rest of Revelation’s story concerning the beast from the bottomless pit? Example, in Rev.17:8, John says, “The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not , and yet will come.”

John also says concerning the beast. “The beast [from the Abyss] is a n eight king. He belongs to the seven [heads on the best which comes out of the sea, Rev. 13:1-5] and is going to his destruction.” (Rev. 17:11)

Can France satisfy these additional specifications belonging to the beast from the bottomless bit? The underlying problem with chronology and interpretation of Revelation through Mrs. White is that she merged information from visions with commonly held reformation views on prophecy to explain Revelation. The result is an assortment of conclusions that cannot be justified historically as fulfillments, and neither can those interpretations be derived from Scripture by use of any known rules of interpretation. Thus Adventists, prophetically speaking, cannot say, “the Bible and the Bible alone” is the rule of faith. They need Mrs. White’s writings as a divine confirmation of the way prophetic things are and will be. Period. Your web site confirms this mind set. Consequently the church has ceased too consider any progressive revelations the Holy Spirit has been revealing to those with eyes that see and hears that hear. Is this not similar to the Catholic and Mormon faiths? The Catholics trust in the Pope for external authority on the Bible to declare what is truth through his “infallible” interpretations, and the Mormons use Joseph Smith to defend views that are completely contrary to Scripture.

 

[BobRyan]

What is your first and last appeal, the Bible or Mrs. White?

It is the Bible. However the Bible proves that both of those sources were divinely inspired.
So the question then becomes "do you listen to the messages God sends?"

It is my understanding that Mrs. White believed her writings were a lesser light to lead readers to the greater light

True. But she also believed in the Bible definition for the gift of prophecy as stated in the NT in 2 Peter 1:21.

, the Bible. So if my beliefs are strictly Bible based would I be in discord with her writings?

No you would not.
But if in some point you were in error on what the Bible is teaching - you could be at variance with something God said to Ellen White.
The disciples viewed themselves as fully devoted to Christ in Matt 16 -- yet they still had a few mistakes in their thinking to be cleared up as that same chapter points out.

I studied my way into the Adventist faith over forty years ago, when I was in my early thirties, by way of our Revelation Seminars. It was my interest in understanding prophecies of closing events that got me to attend those studies.

Good for you. A lot of people get started that way. But they seldom reach the point of understanding all knowledge , having nothing else to learn, gaining no more understanding.

My interest in those studies continue to this day. I have come to understand it is my spiritual gift/ since it is my greatest interest.

I am happy to hear that.

That interest has led me to understand progressive insights outside of what corporate Adventist are willing to consider

"corporate Adventists"?
What is a "corporate Adventist"??

, because in my years of experience the church will not move passed what Mrs. White understood in 1880

Ellen White continued to write to the time of her death - so then for example, Prophets and Kings was published after her death from manuscripts she had been working on to the very end.

Is it your claim that Ellen White or the Bible contradicts itself in later chapters?

Many SDAs do not go for that sort of hermeneutic.

Most are aware, without me having to quote her here, that she knew that new light would be forth coming from her time and that nobody should take the position that all our(Adventist) expositions of scripture are without error.

true.

Just because our people have held to certain beliefs, this does not make our ideas infallible

true.

, as age does not make error into truth. Neither will any true teaching lose anything by close investigation

true.

The reason I am adamant on closing events is that I believe Adventist are just as misinformed as those believing in a secrete rapture.

you have free will and can believe whatever you wish of course.

But showing your view to be inline with the best understanding of the text of scripture will take more than a mere assertion.

Adventist believe most of Revelation is history, except for the mark of the beast and the bowl judgements. which pretty much means, their in the same boat

Not true.

Almost all of the "7's" in the book of revelation have some part that is still future. According to SDA accepted teachings. You may not know this if you left 40 years ago. It is easy to forget things or to lose track of the prior point.

We also have a lot of things in Daniel and Revelation that are still "not understood". Dan 11 for example gets into some uncertain ground as do several sections of Revelation.

Still we are historicist in our hermeneutic for understanding prophecy, we know that all Bible timelines are contiguous withing themselves and that apocalyptic timelines use the day-for-year model.

I would be amiss if I where not able to share with you some hard facts for you to consider, Following are six prophetic events which the Millerites believed were fulfilled prior to 1844.

The sixth seal opened in 1755, marked by the Lisbon earthquake. (GC 304)
The fifth trumpet sounded in 1299 and the sixth trumpet sounded on August 11, 1840. (GC 335)
The beast that killed the Two Witnesses is France. (GC 268 269)
The Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 are the Old and New Testament. (GC 267)
The beast with seven heads ten horns in Revelation 13 s the papacy in various forms. (GC 439)
The lamb-like beast of Revelation 13 is the United States. (GC 440)

The Adventist church to date still defends these events as being historically fulfilled.

We do not view Rev 13 as being fulfilled but rather in-progress.
I don't think Miller had any concept of the US in Rev 13 since everything was going to be over in just a few weeks according to Miller in Sept of 1844.
We do not view Rev 14 as being all fulfilled but rather in-progress
Same is true for Rev 15,16, 17, 18 ... And portions of all previous chapters.

These teachings predate the ministry of Mrs. White. She grew into these views. She was born in 1827, and was twelve years old when William Miller came to her town in 1839, with the end of the world message, that Jesus would return in 1844. This belief naturally required that all pre-Advent prophecies be fulfilled before 1844.

You are missing a great deal of details.

The first is that Miller was clearly aMillennial and we are not.
He did not have the 7 last plagues before the return of Christ nor any events in Rev 13 before that.
He did not have our view on what happens when you die
He did not have our view of the Sabbath
He did not have our view of the Millennium
he did not have our view of what happens at Christ's appearing in Matt 24
He did not have our view of the Dan 7 judgment

Miller seemed to have the view that Jesus would sort all the eschatology, ten commandment stuff out when He showed up in a few weeks.

Those Adventists who endured the great disappointment made some important discoveries about progressive truth and God confirmed the accuracy of some of those discoveries through Mrs. White. However, they did not relinquish those prophetic fulfillments above mentioned

It is not clear to me that you have determined exactly what they did or did not accept.

. In 1880 The GC went into circulation in which Mrs. White explains the fulfillment of all six of those prophetic events.

Except she did not claim that Rev 13 is fulfilled, nor Rev 14, or 15, nor 16, nor 17 nor 18 nor 19 etc.
And she did not agree with some of the views of Uriah Smith about prophecy.

Adventists understanding of the properties of inspiration combined with the GC has halted any serious investigation into what individuals such as I consider progressive truth.

You can't blame the differences you have with the denomination on others. You need to present an actual case for something first. You could be right or you may turn out to be in error. The exercise of reviewing it will indicate the direction.

 

[BobRyan]

I will share the facts around just two of those six fulfillments for your consideration. Please keep in mind the following counsel: Age does not make error into truth. Neither will any true teaching lose anything by close investigation.

According to history, the Turkish empire did not fall on August 11, 1840 as the Milerites claimed. In fact, from 1783 to 1914, the boundaries of the Ottoman Empire were reduced by a series of defeats. The war waged against Turkey in 1840 end in 1841 without significant change. Today, the August 11, 1840 date set by the Millerites is not regarded by historians as an important date in Turkish history. In World War I, Turkey allied with Germany and lost even more territory. In 1923, the Grand National Assembly of Turkey proclaimed Turkey to be a republic and Turkey remains a sovereign nation to this day.

The August 11, 1840 date is reached through a faulty King James translation of scripture that says: “And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.” (Rev. 9:15)

Dr. Josiah Litch, the man that first concluded that the sixth trumpet must occur on August 11, 1840 date, applied the day/year principle to this verse and derived 391 years and 15 days out of the hour, day, month and year mentioned. However, the King James translation of this verse is incorrect! The translation should read: “And the four angels who has been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind.” Greek scholars around the world widely agree that the syntax of Rev. 9:15 points to a specific point in time and is therefore pontellier not the sum of chronological units of time. (See the NIV, NEB, NEV, RSV, and ASV.) In short, this verse does not contain 391 years and 15 days. Rather, this verse points to a specific moment in time!

Dr. Litch failed to just his 391 years, 15 day prophecy with the change of the calendar in October, 1582, when ten days were dropped from the calendar to correct for errors in the Julian calendar. Thus the August 11, 1840 date should be August 21, 1840. And Nothing of historical consequence occurred on that date.

It is not at all clear that Ellen White had much if anything to say in confirmation of Litch's proposed solution for Trumpets.

101 Questions on the Sanctuary and on Ellen White

Search, read, listen to, and download Ellen G. White's Writings in multiple languages! Publications are available in epub, mobi, Kindle, MP3 and PDF …

text.egwwritings.org

"The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary states, “Generally speaking, the Seventh-day Adventist interpretation of the fifth and sixth trumpets, particularly as touching the time period involved, is essentially that of Josiah Litch” (Volume 7, Page 796). Ministry magazine has suggested the dates 1453 to 1844 for the sixth trumpet instead of the period 1449 to 1840 assigned by Litch" (Ministry, October, 1980, Page 4l.).

Litch's "prediction" for the event and date came true - as noted, and many were impressed since he made the prediction before the event, but how it got to that conclusion was not the point affirmed. Just that his prediction did occur on the date he predicted.

The case is more fluid than your representation would allow.

Unknown to Adventists the seven trumpet are yet to be fulfilled. They are shadowed in the Feast of Trumpets in the Old Testament. Which began nine days prior to the Day of Atonement. In like fashion the trumpets of Revelation which are literal events, will begin blowing to arouse and awaken the people on earth to hear the three angel’s messages so that no one needs to be cut off from salvation. God has carefully designed the close of mercy so that anyone desiring to be saved, may be saved.

One thing we are very clear on - is that the Day of Atonement started in 1844.
You're going to need a lot more than what you have posted here - to unseat that Dan 7 , Dan 8 fact.

Ellen White said "Trumpet after Trumpet will sound"

"Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded; vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth." LDE 238.1

You need to do more research before tying the bow on that package of ideas you are presenting.

Lets consider another Millerite declared fulfillment, of which Mrs. White excepted as being fulfilled, the beast that kills the two witnesses is France. (Rev. 11:7) (GC 268,269)

The "beast" kills two witnesses in Rev 11.
7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.

7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves.

The Bible was place on the list of forbidden books and in America the Catholics did not remove it from that list until the 1960's. But long before that the bible was freely available to all with the advent of the printing press and work of the reformers.

The beast in Rev 17 is the same entity. The woman in Rev 17 is the fallen church and the beast is the state.

Can we take this interpretation and explain the rest of Revelation’s story concerning the beast from the bottomless pit? Example, in Rev.17:8, John says, “The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not , and yet will come.”

John also says concerning the beast. “The beast [from the Abyss] is a n eight king. He belongs to the seven [heads on the best which comes out of the sea, Rev. 13:1-5] and is going to his destruction.” (Rev. 17:11)

Can France satisfy these additional specifications

The Dragon in Rev 12 is Satan, but in fact it is pagan and then papal Rome as well since it is Satan working through entities that ended up persecuting Christians after Christ was ascended and especially in the 1260 years of persecution.

Satan is also the one doing all those signs and wonders in Rev 13 via the second beast of that chapter --- but the second beast in Rev 13 is not stuck as pagan Rome or as France etc.

You are being a bit too rigid in your review such that you are not even getting the SDA position stated accurately.

It is one thing to differ with another position ,, it is another thing not to know exactly what it is you are differing with.

Thus Adventists, prophetically speaking, cannot say, “the Bible and the Bible alone” is the rule of faith. They need Mrs. White’s writings as a divine confirmation of the way prophetic things are and will be.

hold the phone! Stop the bus!

I thought you were asking about the doctrinal statements of the church in your "Bible and Bible alone" question. But if you are asking about our understanding of future events, well then just as the apostle John ADDS NEW information about the future that did not exist before, so it is also true with prophets in every age. They do not simply "paraphrase prior statements - providing no new information or insights".

Consequently the church has ceased too consider any progressive revelations the Holy Spirit has been revealing

Not true.

There were other prophets in Ellen White's day and the SDA denomination has not rejected the fact of prophetic visions/dreams since the time of Ellen White.

You need more balanced facts in your statements.

 

[Tigger Boy]

Bob, appreciate your response, and would like to dialogue further if you stick to the subject. You took many off ramps in your post but avoided the two of the six fulfillments claimed by the Millerites, and latter Mrs. White, of which I explained do not hold up to historical facts nor prophecy.

Have you any thoughts on those two claimed fulfillments, which our church still defends today?

 

[reddogs]

What is your first and last appeal, the Bible or Mrs. White?


It is my understanding that Mrs. White believed her writings were a lesser light to lead readers to the greater light, the Bible. So if my beliefs are strictly Bible based would I be in discord with her writings?


I studied my way into the Adventist faith over forty years ago, when I was in my early thirties, by way of our Revelation Seminars. It was my interest in understanding prophecies of closing events that got me to attend those studies. My interest in those studies continue to this day. I have come to understand it is my spiritual gift/ since it is my greatest interest.


That interest has led me to understand progressive insights outside of what corporate Adventist are willing to consider, because in my years of experience the church will not move passed what Mrs. White understood in 1880, at the time she wrote the GC, one hundred forty four yrs. ago.


Most are aware, without me having to quote her here, that she knew that new light would be forth coming from her time and that nobody should take the position that all our(Adventist) expositions of scripture are without error. Just because our people have held to certain beliefs, this does not make our ideas infallible, as age does not make error into truth. Neither will any true teaching lose anything by close investigation.

It is this counsel that has given me a quilt free conscious to study outside of her own understanding of prophecy. These progressive insights are easily recognized by church leadership and older laity who are well read into the her writings, and are quickly rejected without any investigation, contrary to her explicit counsel.

The reason I am adamant on closing events is that I believe Adventist are just as misinformed as those believing in a secrete rapture. They believe they will be out of here, when the tribulation begins, whereas, Adventist believe most of Revelation is history, except for the mark of the beast and the bowl judgements. which pretty much means, their in the same boat in that they need not understand it. This is a disaster waiting to happen.

I would be amiss if I where not able to share with you some hard facts for you to consider, Following are six prophetic events which the Millerites believed were fulfilled prior to 1844.

The sixth seal opened in 1755, marked by the Lisbon earthquake. (GC 304)
The fifth trumpet sounded in 1299 and the sixth trumpet sounded on August 11, 1840. (GC 335)
The beast that killed the Two Witnesses is France. (GC 268 269)
The Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 are the Old and New Testament. (GC 267)
The beast with seven heads ten horns in Revelation 13 s the papacy in various forms. (GC 439)
The lamb-like beast of Revelation 13 is the United States. (GC 440)

The Adventist church to date still defends these events as being historically fulfilled.

These teachings predate the ministry of Mrs. White. She grew into these views. She was born in 1827, and was twelve years old when William Miller came to her town in 1839, with the end of the world message, that Jesus would return in 1844. This belief naturally required that all pre-Advent prophecies be fulfilled before 1844.

Those Adventists who endured the great disappointment made some important discoveries about progressive truth and God confirmed the accuracy of some of those discoveries through Mrs. White. However, they did not relinquish those prophetic fulfillments above mentioned established by earlier Millerites, and Ellen White was no exception. In 1880 The GC went into circulation in which Mrs. White explains the fulfillment of all six of those prophetic events.

Adventists understanding of the properties of inspiration combined with the GC has halted any serious investigation into what individuals such as I consider progressive truth. These two issues in my opinion is preventing a much improved understanding of Revelations story, even while we are getting closer to closing events.

(In my next post I shall present both Biblical and historical facts.)

You would not be Bible based then, as her writings have over time showed her to be true to the scriptures, of course even in the Bible there are hard texts and prophecy to understand, so there is always those who argue on the issue.

 

[Tigger Boy]

You would not be Bible based then, as her writings have over time showed her to be true to the scriptures, of course even in the Bible there are hard texts and prophecy to understand, so there is always those who argue on the issue.

Reddogs, appreciate you joining the conversation. I know from personal experience that it is not easy when ones faith is seriously challenged. Truth is not easily accepted when one discovers what they grew into, taught, and defended latter in life is perhaps assumed truth.

Undoubtedly Christ choose the disciples who were not defenders/employees of the Jewish faith, instead of those who were, because they were so sure they understood the ways of God, that any teaching different would necessarily mean what they understood to be truth, was instead assumed truth. Even to consider it, would suggest a lack of faith in what they taught and believed, not to mention their personal loss of integrity and social status, employment within their church and community, should they ever except it.

Was this not the same situation that Martin Luther, (the reformer we as Adventists hold up for his courage and faith) faced as he but progressive truth before the leaders of Catholic Faith? Is this same situation not also true, of all the progressive truths championed by the reformer’s ?

I’m highlighting mans fallen nature, which plays well for Satan’s purposes, even to get God’s people to fight agains God’s progressive truths. We cannot stop it, but we can choose to get in it’s way. If we are not for it, then we are against it.

Having said that, I also understand that only God truly knows the motives of the heart which leads us to any decision, and further actions, and therefore we shall be judged by Him accordingly.

My purpose on this forum is to promote progressive truth as it relates to apocalyptic prophecy only. Not a matter of moral law nor doctrine as I believe we, Adventists understand correctly. Your objective, it seems to me is to teach and defend all our teachings, of which I think you do very well.

However, I believe Adventists, therefore you too, need to rethink many of Daniel’s and Revelations prophecies based on the progressive truths that God has been revealing as we draw closer to His return.

In my introduction two post on this thread. I was very specific in listing six prophetic prophecies that the Millerite, and Mrs. White believed to have been fulfilled prior to 1844. I selected two, and based on the prophecies themselves, and historical facts, proved that this is not true.

Too, I’m not aware that any of those six so called fulfillments were ever confirmed as being fulfilled by God through through Ellen White.

Neither, you, Bob, or Gary, have countered my claims and support as to why those two prophecies have not been fulfilled. I can only assume in this instance that facts don’t matter to any of you, and if I were to offer more, which I could, they too, would not change any of your opinions, since Mrs. White confirmed fulfillment of all six in the GC.

It is a statistical fact for most christians traditions and the opinions of respected leader are more important that truth itself, as truth can be disruptive, humiliating, and socially divisive.

Blessings

 

[reddogs]

Reddogs, appreciate you joining the conversation. I know from personal experience that it is not easy when ones faith is seriously challenged. Truth is not easily accepted when one discovers what they grew into, taught, and defended latter in life is perhaps assumed truth.

Undoubtedly Christ choose the disciples who were not defenders/employees of the Jewish faith, instead of those who were, because they were so sure they understood the ways of God, that any teaching different would necessarily mean what they understood to be truth, was instead assumed truth. Even to consider it, would suggest a lack of faith in what they taught and believed, not to mention their personal loss of integrity and social status, employment within their church and community, should they ever except it.

Was this not the same situation that Martin Luther, (the reformer we as Adventists hold up for his courage and faith) faced as he but progressive truth before the leaders of Catholic Faith? Is this same situation not also true, of all the progressive truths championed by the reformer’s ?

I’m highlighting mans fallen nature, which plays well for Satan’s purposes, even to get God’s people to fight agains God’s progressive truths. We cannot stop it, but we can choose to get in it’s way. If we are not for it, then we are against it.

Having said that, I also understand that only God truly knows the motives of the heart which leads us to any decision, and further actions, and therefore we shall be judged by Him accordingly.

My purpose on this forum is to promote progressive truth as it relates to apocalyptic prophecy only. Not a matter of moral law nor doctrine as I believe we, Adventists understand correctly. Your objective, it seems to me is to teach and defend all our teachings, of which I think you do very well.

However, I believe Adventists, therefore you too, need to rethink many of Daniel’s and Revelations prophecies based on the progressive truths that God has been revealing as we draw closer to His return.

In my introduction two post on this thread. I was very specific in listing six prophetic prophecies that the Millerite, and Mrs. White believed to have been fulfilled prior to 1844. I selected two, and based on the prophecies themselves, and historical facts, proved that this is not true.

Too, I’m not aware that any of those six so called fulfillments were ever confirmed as being fulfilled by God through through Ellen White.

Neither, you, Bob, or Gary, have countered my claims and support as to why those two prophecies have not been fulfilled. I can only assume in this instance that facts don’t matter to any of you, and if I were to offer more, which I could, they too, would not change any of your opinions, since Mrs. White confirmed fulfillment of all six in the GC.

It is a statistical fact for most christians traditions and the opinions of respected leader are more important that truth itself, as truth can be disruptive, humiliating, and socially divisive.

Blessings

I think Bob answered your questions, but I want to go into the Image of the Beast as we see the current events. First we look what Ellen White wrote on it:
"In order for the United States to form an image of the beast, the religious power must so control the civil government that the authority of the state will also be employed by the church to accomplish her own ends....

The “image to the beast” represents that form of apostate Protestantism which will be developed when the Protestant churches shall seek the aid of the civil power for the enforcement of their dogmas...."

We see the current administration tearing down the foundations today of America and weaking the other branches of the government and even suppressing the other candidates, and the two sides are tearing apart any cooperation so that just a few can be the difference of what laws are presented, what monys are approved, and who wins office. So if one group or demographics becomes a factor they can sway the direction this country takes quiet easily now, and it looks like that is what is being done with the current political situation and the immorality being thrown against anyone who stands in the way, and we are near a looming precipice at all levels, politically, socially, and religiously and about to go over. And then we shall see this things come to realization..

 

[Tigger Boy]

I think Bob answered your questions, but I want to go into the Image of the Beast as we see the current events. First we look what Ellen White wrote on it:
"In order for the United States to form an image of the beast, the religious power must so control the civil government that the authority of the state will also be employed by the church to accomplish her own ends....

The “image to the beast” represents that form of apostate Protestantism which will be developed when the Protestant churches shall seek the aid of the civil power for the enforcement of their dogmas...."

We see the current administration tearing down the foundations today of America and weaking the other branches of the government and even suppressing the other candidates, and the two sides are tearing apart any cooperation so that just a few can be the difference of what laws are presented, what monys are approved, and who wins office. So if one group or demographics becomes a factor they can sway the direction this country takes quiet easily now, and it looks like that is what is being done with the current political situation and the immorality being thrown against anyone who stands in the way, and we are near a looming precipice at all levels, politically, socially, and religiously and about to go over. And then we shall see this things come to realization..

Reddogs, Nice to hear from you again. Appreciate your attitude, more Christ like than others.

Before I go further into this response, I wish to refresh the counsel given by E.W. when we, includes me, engage in discussions with brother and sister of the faith having different opinions.

“If a brother differ with you on some points of truth, do no stoop to ridicule , do not place him in a false light, or misconstrue his words, making sport of them, do not misinterpret his words and wrest them of their true meaning. This is not conscientious argument. Do not present him before others as a heretic, when you have not with him investigated his positions, taking the Scriptures texts by texts in the spirit of Christ to show him what is truth, You do not yourself really know the evidence he has for his faith, and you cannot really clearly define your own position. Take your Bible , and in a kindly define your own position. Take your Bible, and in kindly spirit weigh every argument that he presents and show him by the Scriptures if he is in error. When you do this without unkind feelings, you will do only that which is your duty and the duty of every minister of Jesus Christ.” (CW 50,51) (Emphasis added in bold)

As my posts confirm I try my best to use Scripture only to support my views, whereas, most respondents here insists on using Mrs. Whites writings, which is contrary to the above counsel. This fact goes back to the title of this thread.

Reddogs, in your first statement you say, “I think Bob answered your questions.” I don’t think he has. I seems to me he avoid the fact that those six claimed fulfillment’s which Adventists still support as being fulfilled originated with the Millerites. He went out of his way to distance us (Adventists) today from our founding fathers who came out of that movement, and held to those beliefs. This is factual and we must except these historical facts in order to understand why we interpret those events as we do today.

So let me address your explanation of the “Image of The Beast.” Your first reference is that of Mrs. White. Here I will point out is against her above quoted counsel. True or False?

By following her counsel, lets look to the scripture/prophecy of which I assume you are referring to, Rev. 13:11-17. True or False?

According to vs. 11, the second beast comes up after the previous composite beast of of vss. 1-8. True or False?

At this point let me inject a facf that you may not realize, however, is most important to understanding prophecy. Fulfilled apocalyptic prophecy proves that each event within any given apocalyptic prophecy is given by God in it’s chronological order. No exception. Too, when any event within each prophecy is fulfilled it is, “time stamped,” just as our birth date is stamped in time. Do you agree with this statement. Yes or No?

Historicist do not understand this to my knowledge. Correct me if I am wrong.

Chronology is vital to understanding apocalyptic prophecy as it establishes timing/placement with respect to various events, as well as the entire prophecy itself.

This is why I’m going back to the timing of the composite beast coming up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns.

I believe the true identity of this composite beast can only be made if we understand the chronology of it rise within the prophecy of which it is placed, as well as understanding ALL of the descriptive markers connect to it are met. Would you agree?

I believe our commentary on v. 3, is correct in that it identifies the head that was wounded as the Papacy, and that wound was inflicted in 1798. (See pg. 817, com., on Rev.) However, we/Adventists/Historicist do not pay attention to chronology within prophecy. Our texts clearly places the rise of this composite beast sometime after the deadly wound was inflicted in 1798, not before.

Based on timing alone within this prophecy alone, how can this composite beast, coming out of the sea after 1798 be the Papacy, when the papacy came up among ten horns in 538 A.D. Too, the papacy does not having ten horns as the composite beast has. Is this not a huge difference?

Again, according to chronology provided within this prophecy alone we now know beyond a shadow of doubt that the composite beast comes on the world scene after 1798, (It is a future events waiting fulfillment) that means the beast coming out of the earth too, has to appear after 1798. (Again a future event waiting fulfillment) To claim that this Lamb like beast is the United States is forcing prophecy to say something that it is not. This was the very practice that led the Millerites into believing the six fulfilled events listed in my initial post, and eventually the great disappointment. Shall we not learn from history?

Again I appreciate your post, I hope you and others are beginning to see how much you base your beliefs on Mrs. White. We don’t do that when we share our beliefs with others so why not do the same when sharing amongst ourselves.

I didn’t go into the identity of what I believe prophecy reveals as to what the composite beast or the beast coming out of the earth are. I tried to keep this post short and on point. If your interested in that just let me know.





Blessings

 

[reddogs]

Reddogs, Nice to hear from you again. Appreciate your attitude, more Christ like than others.

Before I go further into this response, I wish to refresh the counsel given by E.W. when we, includes me, engage in discussions with brother and sister of the faith having different opinions.

“If a brother differ with you on some points of truth, do no stoop to ridicule , do not place him in a false light, or misconstrue his words, making sport of them, do not misinterpret his words and wrest them of their true meaning. This is not conscientious argument. Do not present him before others as a heretic, when you have not with him investigated his positions, taking the Scriptures texts by texts in the spirit of Christ to show him what is truth, You do not yourself really know the evidence he has for his faith, and you cannot really clearly define your own position. Take your Bible , and in a kindly define your own position. Take your Bible, and in kindly spirit weigh every argument that he presents and show him by the Scriptures if he is in error. When you do this without unkind feelings, you will do only that which is your duty and the duty of every minister of Jesus Christ.” (CW 50,51) (Emphasis added in bold)

As my posts confirm I try my best to use Scripture only to support my views, whereas, most respondents here insists on using Mrs. Whites writings, which is contrary to the above counsel. This fact goes back to the title of this thread.

Reddogs, in your first statement you say, “I think Bob answered your questions.” I don’t think he has. I seems to me he avoid the fact that those six claimed fulfillment’s which Adventists still support as being fulfilled originated with the Millerites. He went out of his way to distance us (Adventists) today from our founding fathers who came out of that movement, and held to those beliefs. This is factual and we must except these historical facts in order to understand why we interpret those events as we do today.

So let me address your explanation of the “Image of The Beast.” Your first reference is that of Mrs. White. Here I will point out is against her above quoted counsel. True or False?

By following her counsel, lets look to the scripture/prophecy of which I assume you are referring to, Rev. 13:11-17. True or False?

According to vs. 11, the second beast comes up after the previous composite beast of of vss. 1-8. True or False?

At this point let me inject a facf that you may not realize, however, is most important to understanding prophecy. Fulfilled apocalyptic prophecy proves that each event within any given apocalyptic prophecy is given by God in it’s chronological order. No exception. Too, when any event within each prophecy is fulfilled it is, “time stamped,” just as our birth date is stamped in time. Do you agree with this statement. Yes or No?

Historicist do not understand this to my knowledge. Correct me if I am wrong.

Chronology is vital to understanding apocalyptic prophecy as it establishes timing/placement with respect to various events, as well as the entire prophecy itself.

This is why I’m going back to the timing of the composite beast coming up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns.

I believe the true identity of this composite beast can only be made if we understand the chronology of it rise within the prophecy of which it is placed, as well as understanding ALL of the descriptive markers connect to it are met. Would you agree?

I believe our commentary on v. 3, is correct in that it identifies the head that was wounded as the Papacy, and that wound was inflicted in 1798. (See pg. 817, com., on Rev.) However, we/Adventists/Historicist do not pay attention to chronology within prophecy. Our texts clearly places the rise of this composite beast sometime after the deadly wound was inflicted in 1798, not before.

Based on timing alone within this prophecy alone, how can this composite beast, coming out of the sea after 1798 be the Papacy, when the papacy came up among ten horns in 538 A.D. Too, the papacy does not having ten horns as the composite beast has. Is this not a huge difference?

Again, according to chronology provided within this prophecy alone we now know beyond a shadow of doubt that the composite beast comes on the world scene after 1798, (It is a future events waiting fulfillment) that means the beast coming out of the earth too, has to appear after 1798. (Again a future event waiting fulfillment) To claim that this Lamb like beast is the United States is forcing prophecy to say something that it is not. This was the very practice that led the Millerites into believing the six fulfilled events listed in my initial post, and eventually the great disappointment. Shall we not learn from history?

Again I appreciate your post, I hope you and others are beginning to see how much you base your beliefs on Mrs. White. We don’t do that when we share our beliefs with others so why not do the same when sharing amongst ourselves.

I didn’t go into the identity of what I believe prophecy reveals as to what the composite beast or the beast coming out of the earth are. I tried to keep this post short and on point. If your interested in that just let me know.





Blessings

Thats the thing, if two brothers go over the truth, there has to be resolution if they follow God, much like when Paul confronted Peter about his behavior with the Gentiles. If its just a debate/vain argument, God would not approve.... Galatians 5:26

 

[BobRyan]

Tigger Boy said:


I would be amiss if I where not able to share with you some hard facts for you to consider, Following are six prophetic events which the Millerites believed were fulfilled prior to 1844.

The sixth seal opened in 1755, marked by the Lisbon earthquake. (GC 304)
The fifth trumpet sounded in 1299 and the sixth trumpet sounded on August 11, 1840. (GC 335)
The beast that killed the Two Witnesses is France. (GC 268 269)
The Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 are the Old and New Testament. (GC 267)
The beast with seven heads ten horns in Revelation 13 s the papacy in various forms. (GC 439)
The lamb-like beast of Revelation 13 is the United States. (GC 440)

The Rev 13 position is well established - you don't address a single flaw in it other than to say you don't agree with the conclusion. As noted before - you have free will and can differ with whatever you wish.

Bob, appreciate your response, and would like to dialogue further if you stick to the subject. You took many off ramps in your post but avoided the two of the six fulfillments claimed by the Millerites, and latter Mrs. White, of which I explained do not hold up to historical facts nor prophecy.

Have you any thoughts on those two claimed fulfillments, which our church still defends today?

You listed six not two.

The same goes for the first beast in Rev 13 in your list - you differ but offer no actual support for your view and do not show anything to be in error in the Adventist position.

The same goes for the two witnesses in Rev 11 in your list

The same goes for the beast the kills the two witnesses in your list -- and your choice to differ - why not make a case?

 

[BobRyan]

What is your first and last appeal, the Bible or Mrs. White?

It is the Bible. However the Bible proves that both of those sources were divinely inspired.
So the question then becomes "do you listen to the messages God sends?"

It is my understanding that Mrs. White believed her writings were a lesser light to lead readers to the greater light

True. But she also believed in the Bible definition for the gift of prophecy as stated in the NT in 2 Peter 1:21.

, the Bible. So if my beliefs are strictly Bible based would I be in discord with her writings?

No you would not.
But if in some point you were in error on what the Bible is teaching - you could be at variance with something God said to Ellen White.
The disciples viewed themselves as fully devoted to Christ in Matt 16 -- yet they still had a few mistakes in their thinking to be cleared up as that same chapter points out.

I studied my way into the Adventist faith over forty years ago, when I was in my early thirties, by way of our Revelation Seminars. It was my interest in understanding prophecies of closing events that got me to attend those studies.

Good for you. A lot of people get started that way. But they seldom reach the point of understanding all knowledge , having nothing else to learn, gaining no more understanding.

My interest in those studies continue to this day. I have come to understand it is my spiritual gift/ since it is my greatest interest.

I am happy to hear that.

That interest has led me to understand progressive insights outside of what corporate Adventist are willing to consider

"corporate Adventists"?
What is a "corporate Adventist"?

Most are aware, without me having to quote her here, that she knew that new light would be forth coming from her time and that nobody should take the position that all our(Adventist) expositions of scripture are without error.

true.

Just because our people have held to certain beliefs, this does not make our ideas infallible

true.

, as age does not make error into truth. Neither will any true teaching lose anything by close investigation

true.

The reason I am adamant on closing events is that I believe Adventist are just as misinformed as those believing in a secrete rapture.

you have free will and can believe whatever you wish of course.

But showing your view to be inline with the best understanding of the text of scripture will take more than a mere assertion.

Adventist believe most of Revelation is history, except for the mark of the beast and the bowl judgements. which pretty much means, their in the same boat

Not true.

Almost all of the "7's" in the book of revelation have some part that is still future. According to SDA accepted teachings. You may not know this if you left 40 years ago. It is easy to forget things or to lose track of the prior point.

We also have a lot of things in Daniel and Revelation that are still "not understood". Dan 11 for example gets into some uncertain ground as do several sections of Revelation.

Still we are historicist in our hermeneutic for understanding prophecy, we know that all Bible timelines are contiguous withing themselves and that apocalyptic timelines use the day-for-year model.

==========================================

Bob, appreciate your response, and would like to dialogue further if you stick to the subject. You took many off ramps in your post

IT is hard to take you seriously at that point.

but avoided the two of the six fulfillments claimed by the Millerites, and latter Mrs. White, of which I explained do not hold up to historical facts nor prophecy.

Have you any thoughts on those two claimed fulfillments, which our church still defends today?

The two I already addressed??

 

[BobRyan]

Again, according to chronology provided within this prophecy alone we now know beyond a shadow of doubt that the composite beast comes on the world scene after 1798, (It is a future events waiting fulfillment) that means the beast coming out of the earth too, has to appear after 1798.

You are skimming past to many details "in the text" when you insist on that revision above.

Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. 2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority. 3 I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; 4 they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?” 5 There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.

We have FIVE 1260 day references in Rev 11, 12, 13.
¨Rev 11:2-3 tells us 42 months is 1260 days (years)
¨Rev 12: 6,14 tells us 3.5 Times – is 1260 days (years)
¨Rev 13:5 Reminds us that it is 42 months ,1260
¨Dan 7 – Times Times ½ Time (1260 days, day for yr)
¨Dan 12:7 – 3.5 “Times” – is 1260 days (day for year)

Mark 1:14-15 tells us that Daniel and Rev are using day-for-year such that 27 AD is the 483rd year of the 490 years of Dan 9.

That means that the 1260 in Rev 1260 are the same 1260 years that you see in Rev 13.

 

[Tigger Boy]

The Rev 13 position is well established - you don't address a single flaw in it other than to say you don't agree with the conclusion. As noted before - you have free will and can differ with whatever you wish.


You listed six not two.

The same goes for the first beast in Rev 13 in your list - you differ but offer no actual support for your view and do not show anything to be in error in the Adventist position.

The same goes for the two witnesses in Rev 11 in your list

The same goes for the beast the kills the two witnesses in your list -- and your choice to differ - why not make a case?

The Rev 13 position is well established - you don't address a single flaw in it other than to say you don't agree with the conclusion. As noted before - you have free will and can differ with whatever you wish.

I beg to differ. Yes our position is well established in print, however, not chronologically, nor historically. In post 9, I shared with Reddogs why the second beast of Rev. 13, which comes out of the earth as you know, cannot be the US. In summary I took him through Rev. 13: 1-5, and pointed out the composite beast has to appear after the healing of the wound on one of the heads, which Adventist correctly understand is the papacy of which I concur, and as we know that happened in 1798. If one of the heads is a religious system then the other five have to be also. Do you agree? (please answer the question, in order to nail this down.)

What I was proving based on prophecy and chronology alone, then the second beast too, has to come out out of the earth AFTER 1798. As you know the US came to be in 1776, 22 years earlier not after. Do you see the problem, Yes or No or, I refuse to answer because that confirms Historicist have it wrong?

I don't think your reading my post clearly. I listed six fulfillments Adventists claim are fulfilled to this day. I explained why the Sixth trumpet and the beast out of the abyss (France) do not meet the requirement of being fulfilled. You did on the remarks on the facts I presented. I would like to hear your response.

You are skimming past to many details "in the text" when you insist on that revision above.

Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. 2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority. 3 I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; 4 they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?” 5 There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.

We have FIVE 1260 day references in Rev 11, 12, 13.
¨Rev 11:2-3 tells us 42 months is 1260 days (years)
¨Rev 12: 6,14 tells us 3.5 Times – is 1260 days (years)
¨Rev 13:5 Reminds us that it is 42 months ,1260
¨Dan 7 – Times Times ½ Time (1260 days, day for yr)
¨Dan 12:7 – 3.5 “Times” – is 1260 days (day for year)

Mark 1:14-15 tells us that Daniel and Rev are using day-for-year such that 27 AD is the 483rd year of the 490 years of Dan 9.

That means that the 1260 in Rev 1260 are the same 1260 years that you see in Rev 13.

Bob,

You are skimming past to many details "in the text" when you insist on that revision above.

Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. 2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority. 3 I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; 4 they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?” 5 There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.

We have FIVE 1260 day references in Rev 11, 12, 13.
¨Rev 11:2-3 tells us 42 months is 1260 days (years)
¨Rev 12: 6,14 tells us 3.5 Times – is 1260 days (years)
¨Rev 13:5 Reminds us that it is 42 months ,1260
¨Dan 7 – Times Times ½ Time (1260 days, day for yr)
¨Dan 12:7 – 3.5 “Times” – is 1260 days (day for year)

Mark 1:14-15 tells us that Daniel and Rev are using day-for-year such that 27 AD is the 483rd year of the 490 years of Dan 9.

That means that the 1260 in Rev 1260 are the same 1260 years that you see in Rev 13.

Bob, Your spirit/tone is not Christ Like so please take it down some or you will fail to understand anything I have to offer. We both must be humble toward each other if we are to benefit from which either of us have to say.

In post 9 to Reddogs, I was trying to keep the post simple by not getting to deep, and just focused on chronology. By understanding it's importance the timing of events within all apocalyptic can be known. But if you ignore it than one has to force ones bias into the prophecy then the interpretation becomes private (not conforming to valid rules).

This thread I started, let me lead out in this conversation we are now in. Let me share, and you can ask questions as we go along but on just what I present in the post. Please don't go off on a dozen ramps before I get to them. If you are willing to do this our time will be much more beneficial to us both.

This post is dealing with chronology only Bob, not the 1260 time period, which you have injected. I will address that latter, promise.

What makes apocalyptic different than other prophecy is that each one has a starting and ending point in time, and each event is given in chronological order by God, the author. If you can grasp the significance of this then apocalyptic prophecy informs us where we are within the plan of salvation by marking off fulfilled events and informing us which ones are still ahead of us. Like mileage signs to our point of destination.

Consider this: take all the events listed in all apocalyptic prophecy and place them on a table. Now put them in their proper order of fulfillment. Wouldn't be easy would it? When Mrs. White was given visions on closing events God didn't inform her of their chronology. She had to research history and try to figure it out, out side of inspiration. God had not yet revealed what I'm sharing with you nor do the Historicist understand this.

However, all of fulfilled prophecy to date has been fulfilled according to the Chronology God has given within prophecy. If you believe this then you are trusting God has it right since He only knows the beginning from the end. However, past expositors have taken events within prophecy and either switch them out of their order, or ignore their placement altogether.

Early expositors have done this with Rev. 13:1-3. They fail to recognize it comes up after the wound on the head (papacy) was inflicted in 1798.

Bob what I would like from you is just a couple of easy and straight answers. Does it make sense to you that God would list the events within each apocalyptic prophecy in their chronological order, since He knows the beginning from the end, yes or no? If you answer no, show me fulfilled apocalyptic prophecy that has been fulfilled out of it's placement within that prophecy.

Considering only Rev. 13: 1-3, would you conclude prophecy puts the healing of the wound on one of it's head before the composite beast rises from the sea, yes or no?

 

[Aaron112]

It is my understanding that Mrs. White believed her writings were a lesser light to lead readers to the greater light, the Bible. So if my beliefs are strictly Bible based would I be in discord with her writings?

Not as much as many /most/ other writings by others.
Stay Seeking Truth, Keep Seeking Truth
by and in grace, Keep Asking and Seeking Truth from the Creator
by faith in Jesus. Not from men/ mankind/ society.

 

[Aaron112]

Undoubtedly Christ choose the disciples who were not defenders/employees of the Jewish faith, instead of those who were, because they were so sure they understood the ways of God, that any teaching different would necessarily mean what they understood to be truth, was instead assumed truth. Even to consider it, would suggest a lack of faith in what they taught and believed, not to mention their personal loss of integrity and social status, employment within their church and community, should they ever except it.

Rather realize what if as may be the case the disciples were better versed in Jesus' Jewish Faith
than anyone known here today.
They needed to and did obey Jesus re : "IF you want to be MY disciple, you must give up everything and follow ME (not follow anyone else) " They willingly gave up all that they knew, their own lives and families and job security and so forth, to be His disciples. And they gave up what they "knew" in the Jewish faith , to learn directly from Jesus.

This is still true today, and few aware of it.

 

[BobRyan]

I beg to differ. Yes our position is well established in print, however, not chronologically, nor historically.

Actually both are established historically and chronologically.

We were the ones all during the 1800's saying that as the 2nd beast in Rev 13 - it was America and NOT the powers of Europe, Asia etc that would dominate the Earth at the end. All those who doubted us then -- have nowhere to do now.

We were the ones saying that America would start out as a Christian nation, and would eventually move down the road to anti-Christian in its opposition to Bible standards of morality, sin etc.

In post 9, I shared with Reddogs why the second beast of Rev. 13, which comes out of the earth as you know, cannot be the US. In summary I took him through Rev. 13: 1-5, and pointed out the composite beast has to appear after the healing of the wound on one of the heads,

Which is a huge mistake since the Rev 13 beast persecutes the saints for 1260 years -- the same 1260 year period seen in Rev 11 and 12.

And "no" there is not going to be yet another 1260 year period of persecution of the saints.

You simply can't make your idea of a new beast and another 1260 years of persecution in Rev 13 work out historically or chronologically.

which Adventist correctly understand is the papacy of which I concur

Well we are all certain that the papacy does not have yet-another 1260 years of persecution in the wings waiting to spring upon planet . I think even you would agree on this point.

, and as we know that happened in 1798. If one of the heads is a religious system then the other five have to be also

No they don't - but there is no doubt an element of Babylon - a thread of false doctrine that continues through all those empires in their religion about spirits, immortal humans, contact with the dead etc.

Rather they are the very heads of Dan 7 -- in fact the composite in Rev 13 is the composite of Dan 7.

. Do you agree? (please answer the question, in order to nail this down.)

I am trying to show where there is agreement and differences on each point you are raising.

What I was proving based on prophecy and chronology alone, then the second beast too, has to come out out of the earth AFTER 1798.

No doubt the second beast does that in vs 11 not vs 1 - and it has to happen after the 1260 years of persecution given in Rev 13. Persecution that actually ends before 1798 due to the Protestant Reformation. What is more - the US does not rise as a dominant power in 1776. It arises but is not dominant until much later.

As you know the US came to be in 1776, 22 years earlier not after. Do you see the problem, Yes or No

No - because Rev 13 does not say that we emerge as an instant superpower controlling the Earth.

We know it comes out of the Earth but not "it comes out of the Earth after the 1260 are completed" -- you are inserting a lot of inference as if it were in the text.

It presents the right sequence - but you are trying to parse the difference between organize and dominate as "rise up" - as if we dominate the moment we come into existence.

And what is worse - you no "other superpower" to be named that fits your requirement "do not organize until after 1798"

 

[BobRyan]

I don't think your reading my post clearly. I listed six fulfillments Adventists claim are fulfilled to this day. I explained why the Sixth trumpet and the beast out of the abyss (France) do not meet the requirement of being fulfilled. You did on the remarks on the facts I presented. I would like to hear your response.

As I said before - I don't see how you have even remotely challenged the historic fact of the French age of reason, revolution, banning of the Bible, opposition to Christianity etc.

 

[BobRyan]

According to history, the Turkish empire did not fall on August 11, 1840 as the Milerites claimed. In fact, from 1783 to 1914, the boundaries of the Ottoman Empire were reduced by a series of defeats. The war waged against Turkey in 1840 end in 1841 without significant change. Today, the August 11, 1840 date set by the Millerites is not regarded by historians as an important date in Turkish history. In World War I, Turkey allied with Germany and lost even more territory. In 1923, the Grand National Assembly of Turkey proclaimed Turkey to be a republic and Turkey remains a sovereign nation to this day.

The August 11, 1840 date is reached through a faulty King James translation of scripture that says: “And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.” (Rev. 9:15)

Dr. Josiah Litch, the man that first concluded that the sixth trumpet must occur on August 11, 1840 date, applied the day/year principle to this verse and derived 391 years and 15 days out of the hour, day, month and year mentioned. However, the King James translation of this verse is incorrect!

This is not helping your case - since it does not change the historic facts listed to date.

. Thus the August 11, 1840 date should be August 21, 1840. And Nothing of historical consequence occurred on that date.

so then --

this Aug 11, 1840 subject you "select"

Is not about any of the 28 SDA doctrines
Is not about any prediction that Ellen White made
Is not about Josiah Litch claiming to be a prophet or prophesying anything at all
Is not about any incident that happens in any year while Ellen White was claiming to have a prophetic gift.

Rather it is about Litch's interpretation of a prophecy in a chapter of the book of revelation and a single comment Ellen White published about that historic event where Litch's interpretation was published before Ellen White was doing anything at all as a prophet.??

oh well... if that is the best you have ..

hint: This is the only mention of Josiah Litch or the date August 11 1840 in all of her writings. It is not even mentioned in the 1884 Great Controversy.

GC 334.4 (1911) In the year 1840 another remarkable fulfillment of prophecy excited widespread interest. Two years before, Josiah Litch, one of the leading ministers preaching the second advent, published an exposition of Revelation 9, predicting the fall of the Ottoman Empire. According to his calculations, this power was to be overthrown "in A.D. 1840, sometime in the month of August;" and only a few days previous to its accomplishment he wrote:

"Allowing the first period, 150 years, to have been exactly fulfilled before Deacozes ascended the throne by permission of the Turks, and that the 391 years, fifteen days, commenced at the close of the first period, it will end on the 11th of August, 1840, when the Ottoman power in Constantinople may be expected to be broken. And this, I believe, will be found to be the case."--Josiah Litch, in Signs of the Times, and Expositor of Prophecy, Aug. 1, 1840.​

At the very time specified, Turkey, through her ambassadors, accepted the protection of the allied powers of Europe, and thus placed herself under the control of Christian nations. The event exactly fulfilled the prediction.

"When it became known, multitudes were convinced of the correctness of the principles of prophetic interpretation adopted by Miller and his associates, and a wonderful impetus was given to the advent movement. Men of learning and position united with Miller, both in preaching and in publishing his views, and from 1840 to 1844 the work rapidly extended.


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Ellen White says Litch predicted the fall for the Ottoman empire from its prior position - but then qualifies that to mean a communication was sent from her ambassadors to certain European nations requesting protection - a treaty of sorts.

So then it is all about when a certain communication was made between representatives such that other nations enter into an agreement with Turkey to support/defend it , and then exactly what stage that communication was in at the time that Litch selects... "err...umm... right"
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Josiah Litch

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" But what, it is asked, will be the effect on your own mind, if it does not come out according to the above calculation? Will not your confidence in your theory be shaken? I reply, not all. The prophecy in hand is an isolated one; and a failure in the calculation does not necessarily affect any other calculation. But' yet, whenever it is fulfilled, whether in 1840, or at a future period, it will open the way for the scenes of the last day. Let no man, therefore, triumph, even if there should be an error of a few months in our calculation on this prophesy." L SIGNS OF THE TIMES August 1 1840 ​

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As for Ellen White's statements on the The Trumpets..​

14MR 287 “Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth.”

Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth. Scenes of stupendous interest are right upon us, and these things will be sure indications of the presence of Him who has directed in every aggressive movement, who has accompanied the march of His cause through all the ages, and who has graciously pledged Himself to be with His people in all their conflicts to the end of the world. He will vindicate His truth. He will cause it to triumph. He is ready to supply His faithful ones with motives and power of purpose, inspiring them with hope and courage and valor in increased activity as the time is at hand. 6LtMs, Lt 112, 1890, par. 13


This statement was written Dec 22 1890 and it is clearly referring to future events from that date.
Ellen White says: In the future trumpet after trumpet is going to sound one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth.
She also says: Vial after vial is going to be poured out on after another upon the inhabitants of the earth.

If a person denies that this is referring to the seven trumpets. Then they should also have to deny that the seven last plagues are also being referred to.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:


You are skimming past to many details "in the text" when you insist on that revision above.

Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. 2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority. 3 I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; 4 they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?” 5 There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.

We have FIVE 1260 day references in Rev 11, 12, 13.
¨Rev 11:2-3 tells us 42 months is 1260 days (years)
¨Rev 12: 6,14 tells us 3.5 Times – is 1260 days (years)
¨Rev 13:5 Reminds us that it is 42 months ,1260
¨Dan 7 – Times Times ½ Time (1260 days, day for yr)
¨Dan 12:7 – 3.5 “Times” – is 1260 days (day for year)

Mark 1:14-15 tells us that Daniel and Rev are using day-for-year such that 27 AD is the 483rd year of the 490 years of Dan 9.

That means that the 1260 in Rev 1260 are the same 1260 years that you see in Rev 13.

Bob, Your spirit/tone is not Christ Like so please take it down

Please expand on that a bit.

I don't know what you are talking about just then.,

This post is dealing with chronology only Bob, not the 1260 time period, which you have injected. I will address that latter, promise.

The 1260 is how the date 1798 comes up in your own posts. You and I both know that. I don't understand your comment just then as if you and I were thinking that the 1798 AD date "comes from something else" --

How is it you are including the 1798 date in your post - and then claiming we should not discuss the 1260 timeline that determines the 1798 date? Is it that you and I both know that that timeline is in Rev 13 as well as Rev 11 and Rev 12?

Is it that by noting this fact your argument is not benefited. Ok fine it is "an inconvenient fact" when viewed that way - but still highly applicable.

What makes apocalyptic different than other prophecy is that each one has a starting and ending point in time

Not true.

Many prophecies have start and end points such as Dan 9:1-6 where Jeremiah's 70 year timeline is referenced. Having a start and an end point is not what makes a prophecy "apocalyptic" . I suggest that we both know this is true.

, When Mrs. White was given visions on closing events God didn't inform her of their chronology.

I assume you mean she did not predict a year for something to happen or how many months/days it would last -- in some cases.

Early expositors have done this with Rev. 13:1-3. They fail to recognize it comes up after the wound on the head (papacy) was inflicted in 1798.

Rev 13 includes events many centuries before 1798 with its reference to the 1260 years of persecution.

Considering only Rev. 13: 1-3, would you conclude prophecy puts the healing of the wound on one of it's head before the composite beast rises from the sea, yes or no?

no I would not.

But God would include details / events in Rev 13 already given in Rev 11 and 12 - just as He in fact did with the 1260 years mentioned in all three chapters.