Islam Sri Lankan Massacre Revenge

[Joyousperson]

Let's look at how you describe Dr. Jeffrey Bale in that thread:

In this thread you are discounting his expertise.

Here is a more in depth bio on Dr. Bale found on the National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism's website.

Biography:
Jeff is the Director of the Monterey Terrorism Research and Education Program (MonTREP) and Associate Professor in the Graduate School of International Policy Studies at the Monterey Institute of International Studies (MIIS). He obtained his B.A. in Middle Eastern, Islamic, and Central Asian history at the University of Michigan, his M.A. in social movements and political sociology at the University of California at Berkeley, and his Ph.D. in contemporary European history at Berkeley. He has taught at Berkeley, Columbia University, and the University of California at Irvine, and was the recipient of postdoctoral fellowships from the Society of Fellows in the Humanities at Columbia, the Office of Scholarly Programs at the Library of Congress, and the Center for German and European Studies at Berkeley. Dr. Bale has been studying extremist and terrorist groups for many years, has done archival research and interviewed extremists in several countries, and has published numerous articles on terrorism, right-wing extremism, Islamism, and covert operations. He is in the process of updating two book manuscripts on neo-fascist terrorist networks in Cold War Europe, editing a special issue of the journal Totalitarian Movements and Political Religions on Islamism, and gathering primary and secondary source materials for three new monographs, one on Islamist networks operating in Europe and North America, another on the growing reported links between dissident left- and right-wing radicals in the West and Islamist terrorists, and still another on "conspiracy theories" concerning major recent acts of terrorism (from the 1993 World Trade Center bombing to the 7/7 bombings in London). In addition to his teaching and research duties at MIIS, he also teaches courses on an adjunct basis at the Naval Postgraduate School and regularly consults for the U.S. government on matters related to political and religious extremism.

How can you honestly say that Dr. Bale's view on Islam and terrorism is very limited and he is ignorant of many critical factors to the Islamic-driven terrorism equation based on the credentials above?

I have come to the conclusion that it will not matter to you what I or anyone else says on this subject, because in your eyes everyone who disagrees with you is ignorant.

I have read Jeffrey Bale's profile and scan through Jeffrey Bale's views on Islam and terrorism.

Note I have stated Jeffrey Bale's agreed Islam itself has something to do with Islamic terrorism and he labelled this as "Islamism" a term coined by Maajid Nawaz and Islamism is differentiated from moderate Islam.

Now if you read Jeffrey Bale's views, you will note he did not include those critical factors I have highlighted in my posts, e.g. the covenant, evolutionary psychology of evil -20% of evil prone, a detailed analysis of the Quran and others.
If so, show me the evidence.

Note what counts is whether my arguments are objectively verifiable, logical, and sound.

 

[JosephZ]

Note I have stated Jeffrey Bale's agreed Islam itself has something to do with Islamic terrorism

Her is the short answer on how Dr. Bale associates Islam with Islamic extremism and terrorism.

"Islamism, including jihadism, is inconceivable without reference to Islam, just as Christian Reconstructionism is inconceivable without reference to Christianity."

Dr. Bale considers Islam to be "one of the world’s most historically important and influential religions" and that it shouldn't be confused with Islamism which is an "intrinsically radical and anti-democratic extreme right-wing political ideology, one that is not only based upon an unusually strict, puritanical interpretation of central tenets of the Islamic faith but is totalitarian in its very essence." Dominion or Reconstruction ideology in Christianity is much the same as Islamism as it considers unbelievers and Christians with more moderate interpretations of the Bible to be enemies of God and the Biblical law should apply to economics, education, criminal law, politics, business, ecology, journalism, and medicine.

You argument here fails because you are not making a distinction between Islam the religion and Islamic Extremism.

Note what counts is whether my arguments are objectively verifiable, logical, and sound.

Much of what you have said in this thread is correct in regards to Islamic extremism and the extremist ideologies found in Islam, but you fail recognize the more than 1.6 billion followers of the Islamic faith as being Muslims. In your view, only terrorists who carry out violent jihad are the only Muslims.

 

[Joyousperson]

Her is the short answer on how Dr. Bale associates Islam with Islamic extremism and terrorism.

"Islamism, including jihadism, is inconceivable without reference to Islam, just as Christian Reconstructionism is inconceivable without reference to Christianity."

Dr. Bale considers Islam to be "one of the world’s most historically important and influential religions" and that it shouldn't be confused with Islamism which is an "intrinsically radical and anti-democratic extreme right-wing political ideology, one that is not only based upon an unusually strict, puritanical interpretation of central tenets of the Islamic faith but is totalitarian in its very essence." Dominion or Reconstruction ideology in Christianity is much the same as Islamism as it considers unbelievers and Christians with more moderate interpretations of the Bible to be enemies of God and the Biblical law should apply to economics, education, criminal law, politics, business, ecology, journalism, and medicine.

You argument here fails because you are not making a distinction between Islam the religion and Islamic Extremism.

What I have inferred is from what I have read of Bale's view. I have not read his two books.
If Bale's view is totally different from mine, I believed his view is based on shallow and narrow views of Islam and human nature.

As far I am concerned, I have presented arguments which are objective based on the additional elements, e.g. covenant, psychology of evil and others and Bale had not taken these critical root factors into account.

Much of what you have said in this thread is correct in regards to Islamic extremism and the extremist ideologies found in Islam, but you fail recognize the more than 1.6 billion followers of the Islamic faith as being Muslims. In your view, only terrorists who carry out violent jihad are the only Muslims.

Note I have provided an objective basis of who is a Muslims in relation to complying with the 6236 verses of the Quran and verses from the Ahadith.

Note my challenge to you, show me one verse from the Quran
that is positive to disbelievers that is unconditional and not abrogated?

I did not say the only Muslims are the terrorists [minority], the rest of the minority are not Muslims.

I refer to the 6236 verses as a checklist to measure the degree of Muslim_nes [ or Mushin-ness or Taqwa_ness].

I believe based on evidence the terrrorists and the evil prone Muslim [320 millions] will likely tick and agree to comply with >90% of the 6236 verses in the Quran.

Whereas, the moderate Muslims [1.28 billion] will likely and agree and to comply at most with 50-60% of the 6236 verses. E.g. they will not agree with the 'not to befriend non-Muslims verses, the non-Muslims are doomed verses, and all the negative elements [ 3400++] within the Quran.

See my argument is very objective whereas yours are merely based on opinions and subjective feelings as a good human being and Christian blinded to the truths.

 

[JosephZ]

If Bale's view is totally different from mine, I believed his view is based on shallow and narrow views of Islam and human nature. As far I am concerned, I have presented arguments which are objective based on the additional elements, e.g. covenant, psychology of evil and others and Bale had not taken these critical root factors into account.

Note my challenge to you, show me one verse from the Quran
that is positive to disbelievers that is unconditional and not abrogated?

See my argument is very objective whereas yours are merely based on opinions and subjective feelings as a good human being and Christian blinded to the truths.

I have learned that you have been copying and pasting this same information word for word on multiple forums for several years. In each of these forums people have patiently tried to show you where you are in error, but you fail to listen. Everyone from real Muslims to psychologists have tried to correct you, but you consider them to be ignorant. I have tried to share my knowledge on the subjects of Islam and violent extremism with you only to be repeatedly insulted. I have provided sources from Islamic and religious scholars to experts in the fields of terrorism and violent extremism only for you to discount what they say and call them ignorant and/or biased. I have suggested a couple of online courses for you to take, but you say that they are stupid and it would be a waste of your time to take them. This despite your claim that you spent 3 years full time average 6-7 hours a day researching the Qur'an.

Therefore:

I have come to the conclusion that it will not matter to you what I or anyone else says on this subject, because in your eyes everyone who disagrees with you is ignorant.

 

[Joyousperson]

I have learned that you have been copying and pasting this same information word for word on multiple forums for several years. In each of these forums people have patiently tried to show you where you are in error, but you fail to listen. Everyone from real Muslims to psychologists have tried to correct you, but you consider them to be ignorant. I have tried to share my knowledge on the subjects of Islam and violent extremism with you only to be repeatedly insulted. I have provided sources from Islamic and religious scholars to experts in the fields of terrorism and violent extremism only for you to discount what they say and call them ignorant and/or biased. I have suggested a couple of online courses for you to take, but you say that they are stupid and it would be a waste of your time to take them. This despite your claim that you spent 3 years full time average 6-7 hours a day researching the Qur'an.

Therefore:

This is very new;

Note my challenge to you, show me one verse from the Quran
that is positive to disbelievers that is unconditional and not abrogated?

It would be very interesting if you can provide a logical and sound logical argument.

 

[JosephZ]

This is very new;

Note my challenge to you, show me one verse from the Quran
that is positive to disbelievers that is unconditional and not abrogated?

It would be very interesting if you can provide a logical and sound logical argument.

Why should I, or anyone else for that matter, entertain you? Once I saw where you have been posting this exact same content on multiple other forums and the responses you were receiving there, I realized that you have no intentions of listening to what anyone else has to say or to learn from them.

I'm sure this latest challenge you have for me has already been answered at some point by others in one or more of the hundreds of other threads you have started or participated in on this subject elsewhere; and since I have already put in enough time and effort on trying to help you only to be repeatedly insulted, I see no reason to further continue.

 

[Joyousperson]

Why should I, or anyone else for that matter, entertain you? Once I saw where you have been posting this exact same content on multiple other forums and the responses you were receiving there, I realized that you have no intentions of listening to what anyone else has to say or to learn from them.

I'm sure this latest challenge you have for me has already been answered at some point by others in one or more of the hundreds of other threads you have started or participated in on this subject elsewhere.

I have not raised that point [latest challenge] anywhere else.

Note I am not active in more than one thread at any one time except in this case, where I wanted the views of Christians on 'Who is a Christian'.

Yes, I have raised the same topic in various forums but that is a quality of a good researcher to get a broad and deepeer spectrum of views where possible and I have gained loads of benefits from such an approach.
Thus from this approach I dug into more deeper research to cover whatever knowledge gaps I encountered from different people.

This is why it not likely you will catch me out on any of the major issues I asserts.

But the latest challenge is really new to me, i.e. a benefit from venturing into this different forum and discussing with you. Thanks for that.

I am confident you will not be able to find one because the overall ethos of Islam is the hatred and condemnation of non-Muslims in the worst derogatory manner [objectively supported by real research] to the extent the evil prone Muslims will kill non-Muslims given the opportunity, and this is so evident and glaring.

Note the critical points i have highlighted, if you research on them, you will surely gain greater and deeper truths objectively.

 

[JosephZ]

But the latest challenge is really new to me, i.e. a benefit from venturing into this different forum and discussing with you. Thanks for that.

You're welcome, but I really have to step away from participating in this debate with you any further. I have put way more time into this than I should have already. I hope you understand.

Before I go though, unless there are dozens of Islamic terrorists attacks over the next two days, my prediction from earlier in the thread looks to hold true.

Earlier you were claiming that Islamic violence is on the rise and that you disputed the fact that it's declining. I will now use your own source to show that it is.

Let's look at the religionofpeace scorecards for 2013-14 again:

Now look at 2019 as of today:

Ramadan is 2/3rds of the way through and according to this chart there have been an average of 5.4 attacks per day. At the current rate, 2019 will end up with somewhere between 160 and 165 attacks by the end of Ramadan. Even using their stats, that would be around a 45% drop in terror attacks since 2013-14.

Using your own source for tracking Islamic terrorism, the situation is getting better rather than worse in regards to Islamic terrorism.

2013-14

Today:

I also see where religionofpeace has yet to report on the terrorist attacks by Christian terrorists in India, so that site is not a legitimate source for accurate information, but even using this extremely bias source, since 2013-14 there has been a drop in Islamic related attacks during Ramadan of about 45%, and a drop in deaths of around 60%.

This also supports the more reliable statistics from government and other legitimate sources that come to the same conclusions. Using their statistics, however; the drop in attacks has been closer to 60% since the historic highs found in 2014.

 

[Joyousperson]

You're welcome, but I really have to step away from participating in this debate with you any further. I have put way more time into this than I should have already. I hope you understand.

Before I go though, unless there are dozens of Islamic terrorists attacks over the next two days, my prediction from earlier in the thread looks to hold true.

Using your own source for tracking Islamic terrorism, the situation is getting better rather than worse in regards to Islamic terrorism.

2013-14

View attachment 257599

Today:

View attachment 257598

I also see where religionofpeace has yet to report on the terrorist attacks by Christian terrorists in India, so that site is not a legitimate source for accurate information, but even using this extremely bias source, since 2013-14 there has been a drop in Islamic related attacks during Ramadan of about 45%, and a drop in deaths of around 60%.

This also supports the more reliable statistics from government and other legitimate sources that come to the same conclusions. Using their statistics, however; the drop in attacks has been closer to 60% since the historic highs found in 2014.

Your moral compass is not working on the above statistics.

Note all evil and violent acts from all sources must be addressed.
Even one evil or violent act must be given attention.

I believe thereligionofPeace are doing the best and missing out one or two is not significant. I agree it need to be included but that report is not easily available from a search. Where is the link again and I will email them to update if true.

The number attacks have dropped because the authorities are getting more intelligent, smarter and alert in nipping potential attacks.

However the existing numbers of 103 attacks with 739 deaths in only one month are still very critical numbers. Something is wrong with your morality if you are VERY happy with this reduced quantum.

Note the above is merely one month but you have to note the larger number within a year, previous years and total to date.

In the context of Islam, we must take into account the total number of attacks, wars, etc. carried out by SOME Muslims since 610 CE [] till the present who were inspired by the inherent ethos evil and violent elements in the Quran and Ahadith to please Allah to get a greater assurance of eternal life in paradise.

This inherent ethos of evil and violent elements within immutable Islam is eternal and will go on forever.

Towards the future, there will be more attacks and a possibility of SOME Muslim [from a pool of 320 million] exterminating the human race with cheap and easily obtainable WMDs [nukes or biological] since the Quran do not have respect for earthly life and whatever happened they are guaranteed a place in paradise with eternal life.

Wake up!

 

[Joyousperson]

JosephZ ,

Re no verses that is positive to non-Muslims that is unconditional an unabrogated, I have an analysis in my Excel.

Note there are positive verses in the Quran [appx 200] but the majority of them are directed at Muslims only. Example, fasting, no alcohol and the likes are only applicable to Muslims. Many of them are also abrogated, e.g. one advocated be kind to fathers, parents, bethrens, kins but another verse advocate the opposite if their parents, and others are disbelievers.

I had listed 65 verses that positives which can be related to non-Muslims.
There are only 24 verses that refer directly to non-Muslims but all these are abrogated by the later verses.
There are 41 verses which are in general, e.g. 41:34 but they are either conditional or abrogated.

There is not a single verse [unconditional and unabrogated] out of the 6,236 verses in the Quran that is positive and favorable to non-Muslims.
However, there are 3400++ verses containing contemptuous terms directed at non-Muslims.
A 100% Muslim must comply with 100% with the Quran's 6236 verses, i.e. Islam, therefore, in principle, there cannot be any good Muslim that is peaceful to non-Muslims.
Take a deep breath, be very mindful and reflect deeply on the above objective facts!

Muslims who are peaceful, kind, compromising and friendly to non-Muslims are doing so as good human beings based on universal human values, not as religious Muslims based on Quranic Islamic doctrines.

 

[Joyousperson]

Btw, I had mistaken your post as from JosephZ in some of my replies below. But I believe it is still relevant in general.

Wonder why you could not understand my point?

E.g. Note what is American [government] is represented the 7591 words [in statements] in the US Constitution [with Amendments]. Regardless of whether you or me understanding the statements and context is beside the point.
What is must be objective intended will be interpreted by the relevant judges.

This can hardly be compared to a religious scripture.

The principle is the same.
Whatever is the essence of an ideology they are all presented in the constitution of that ideology and no where else.

The Constitution of Islam is the 6236 verses of the Quran.
In Quran 5:3 Allah stated it has perfected the religion of Islam and this can only meant all the 6236 verses [100%] of the Quran.
Therefore what is Islam is the 6236 verses in the Quran that Allah had delivered via Muhammad. The Ahadith [contentious] support the Quran.

The Quran is the core of Islam and represented by the 6236 verses sent by Allah. Therefore these 6236 verses from Allah represent Islam regardless of whether you, me or any Muslims or others understand the verses or not.

That's absurd. But even if you were to do so you wouldn't get to such conclusions as, for instance, that a Muslim can't befriend a non-Muslim.

Note there are many verses in the Quran that commands and exhorts Muslims not to befriend non-Muslims. I'll post them in another post.
Therefore if a Muslim befriend a non-Muslims, the Muslim would have sinned against Allah.
I know the majority of Muslims do befriend non-Muslims, they are doing that based on their inherent human nature as friendly people. They have ignored of the commands of Allah in the Quran or have not taken it seriously.

You on the other hand put in the addition historical spin as major criteria into interpreting the Quran, which is obviously wrong. Allah never mentioned the 'historical' perspective is to be applied.

Why is it wrong to understand the history in connection to the Qu'ran? It would be an ignorant approach to think oneself so self-sufficient one doesn't need the information or understanding of those who lived before, especially of those who lived and learned with the prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa sallam).

The history element is useful but it is not critical in twisting Allah's words. In addition, the historical knowledge can be very subjective. Note the common saying, "History is always written by winners."

The verses in Chapter 9 are not intended to be historical as many would like to argue for.
They reflect the principles to be used by Muslims in similar situations. Thus if Islam is under threat [fasadin], Muslims are permitted to kill non-Muslims. The problem is 'fasadin' is vaguely defined to the extent, drawing of cartoons of Muhammad is deemed a threat, thus the killings.

For example, Allah in the Quran specifically commanded Muslims not to befriend non-Muslims, but you insist that is not the case. There are many other verses that you and moderate Muslims do not adhere to what Allah intended but twist Allah's word with the historical spin.

60:8-9: "Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just. Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong."

60:8-9 are very contentious.

Note 60:1 that set the tone for Chapter 60.

60:1. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Choose not My enemy [infidels] and your enemy [infidels] for friends.
Do ye [Muslims] give them [infidels] friendship [love, bonding, bil-mawadati بِالْمَوَدَّةِ و د د ] when they [infidels] disbelieve in that [revelation Quran] truth which hath come unto you [Muslims], driving out the messenger and you [Muslims] because ye [Muslims] believe in Allah, your Lord?
If ye [Muslims] have come forth to strive in My way and seeking My good pleasure, (show them [infidels] not friendship).
Do ye [Muslims] show friendship unto them [infidels] in secret, when I am best Aware of what ye [Muslims] hide and what ye proclaim? And whosoever [Muslim] doeth it among you, be verily hath strayed from the right way.​

60:8-9 refer to some exceptional circumstances. This is one exceptional situation against the many other verses that prohibit Muslims from befriending non-Muslims.
Allah Forbids You Not (Qur'an 60:8) - WikiIslam

The theme and context of Islam is the theme represented by the 6236 verses of the Quran.

"Theme and context of Islam" just doesn't make any sense to me. Do you think Allah (Subhaanahu wa ta'ala) has a context?

It is obvious Allah has context and purpose in delivering Islam and the Quran to humans via Muhammad.

51:56. I [Allah] created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship [عbudu] Me.​

To worship Allah, all Muslims must enter into a contract with Allah to comply with the contractual terms in the Quran where Allah promised salvation of eternal life in paradise [JNN: Jannah].

I have stated before, the soteriological element is represented by >30% of the verses.

If you research into the Quran thoroughly this is the main thrust of the Quran, i.e. salvation to paradise with eternal life.
There are 3400++ or 55% depicting a serious threat from non-Muslims against the Muslims's path to salvation.
From the 3400++ verses, various strategies are established to counter the threats from the non-Muslims, and this including war [300++ verses], and various evil and violent threat to eliminate if not to suppress the threats from non-Muslims merely due to their disbelieving in Islam.

Suppress the threats from non-Muslims merely due to their disbelieving Islam? Is that a threat from non-Muslims? Maybe you mean a threat to Muslims? Or you mean the actual threat the non-Muslims have been to Muslims from time to time?

The point that there are non-Muslims who disbelieve in Islam is itself a threat, i.e. the non-Muslims could convert all Muslims to their religion, as such this is a potential threat that need to be suppressed by various strategies, e.g. not to befriend non-Muslims, war against them, etc.

Yes, the hereafter is a fundamental issue in Islam. The Qur'an is right to warn about it. Few people will make it to Jannah.

Where did Allah state, few people will go to Jannah. Allah is very explicit in many verses referring to Jannah [JNN], e.g.

2:82. And those [Muslims] who believe and do good works: such are rightful owners of the Garden [JNN: Jannah]. They will abide therein [KhLD: Khālidūna] [eternal life].​

There are more than 50 verses [?] in the same context.

I believe you got confused with the Ahadith where a limit of 70,000 is mentioned. This refer to special people but 2:82 applies to all Muslims who comply its conditions.

Most the 3400++ identify who are the non-Muslims in derogatory terms.
What are those?

I don't have mine in the net.
However I usually refer a similar reference, i.e.
Bill Warner claimed 64% of the Quran is devoted to the non-Muslim based on the number of words and the related Stories.
Center for the Study of Political Islam
The supporting verses are in the various files in that site.

Mine is 3400++ or 55% based on number of verses over the total 6236 verses.

Note Muhammad was the one who started the tit-for-tat wars when he insulted the Meccans' religion.

No he didn't. The Meccans began persecuting the Muslims first. They were frightened of them and their ideas. The Muslims had to fear for their safety and even their lives just for praying in public.

In this case, you have to note the chronological sequence.
Muhammad experienced a frightening altered states of consciousness and was convinced he was the prophesized messiah by his wife and relative.
Before that the Meccans were living harmoniously practicing different religions.
Muhammad started preaching his religion by insulting the Meccans' religions, and they warned Muhammad not to do so, but he persisted, that is when the Meccans countered after their numerous warning.

Btw, note the STALEMATE DILEMMA, i.e. who are you to judge they are wrong?

The islamic scholars from the last 1400 years verify they are wrong - not to mention common sense while reading the Qur'an (even if you prefer to read it without interpretation).

In the case of any contention re the Quranic verses, whatever the sense, common or otherwise, no human can judge on behalf of Allah. Only Allah can judge what is right or wrong in accordance to the Quran and Islam.

For example, SOME Muslims will view Quran 9:5 as not historical but rather a guiding principle, then go on to kill non-Muslims wherever they find them, who is to judge they are wrong. No human can claim the final authority on the interpretation of 9:5 and other contentious verses, else it would be overriding the authority of Allah, i.e. fitna.

This is the problem of Islam where there is a STALEMATE Dilemma.
Whereas it does not happen with Christianity because Christianity has an overriding pacifist maxim of love all -even enemies.

I had explained in another post,
what is truer Islamic can be verified to what degree each Muslim or group conform to the 6236 verses in the Quran.

So you mean a better Muslim?

Yes, I mean better Muslim.

The Quran exhort Muslims to compete with each other -to the best of their ability - in compliance with the words of Allah.

5:48 ... So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye [people] will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.​

18:7. Lo! We have placed all that is in the earth as an ornament thereof that we may try [BLW: bala] them [all people]: which of them is best in conduct [aḥsanu]. [race, compete, vie].

56:10. And [3rd] the foremost [SBQ: l-sābiqūna] in the race, the foremost [SBQ: l-sābiqūna] in the race:
56:11. Those are they [1st class Muslims] who will be brought nigh [QRB: l-muqarabūna: nearest ones]​

There are 6236 verses in the Quran, thus the one who comply with more of the 6236 would be the better Muslims.
If we put the 6236 verses in a checklist we can easily grade the better Muslims in terms of % grades.

 

[Yytz6]

The principle is the same.
Whatever is the essence of an ideology they are all presented in the constitution of that ideology and no where else.

The Constitution of Islam is the 6236 verses of the Quran.

I wouldn't say so. There is more to Islam than what shows from the Quran someone who doesn't look farther than the ink.

In Quran 5:3 Allah stated it has perfected the religion of Islam and this can only meant all the 6236 verses [100%] of the Quran.

It doesn't really mean the verses. (It's Allah (Subhaanahu wa ta'ala) who has perfected it not the book.) Of course the verses are all in the holy book which is complete. But when Allah (Subhaanahu wa ta'ala) says He has perfected the religion it again doesn't just mean the ink on the paper. It means the entire message from the prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) and one of the reasons He says it is perfected is because the religion of the Christians and the Jews, even though from the same God, had become faulty.

Therefore what is Islam is the 6236 verses in the Quran that Allah had delivered via Muhammad. The Ahadith [contentious] support the Quran.

The Qur'an supports the Ahadith.

Therefore if a Muslim befriend a non-Muslims, the Muslim would have sinned against Allah.

False.

I know the majority of Muslims do befriend non-Muslims, they are doing that based on their inherent human nature as friendly people. They have ignored of the commands of Allah in the Quran or have not taken it seriously.

They have interpreted correctly. All the rules for mankind from Allah (Subhaanahu wa ta'ala) are based on the natural state of man. Meaning if a human being is naturally friendly and sympathetic to his fellow humans it would go against that natural instinct to rule otherwise.

The history element is useful but it is not critical in twisting Allah's words. In addition, the historical knowledge can be very subjective. Note the common saying, "History is always written by winners."

In Islam it is written by everyone. It is too important not to be written.

The verses in Chapter 9 are not intended to be historical as many would like to argue for.

I agree in that they are not just historical. They are guidance also.

They reflect the principles to be used by Muslims in similar situations.

Exactly.

Thus if Islam is under threat [fasadin], Muslims are permitted to kill non-Muslims. The problem is 'fasadin' is vaguely defined to the extent, drawing of cartoons of Muhammad is deemed a threat, thus the killings.

This is not vagueness in the Qur'an or the Hadith but in the unlawful implementation of Sharia. But Sharia is man made - the Qur'an is not. Which is why it is no surprise that there are faults in the implementation of Sharia.

Note 60:1 that set the tone for Chapter 60.

60:1. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Choose not My enemy [infidels] and your enemy [infidels] for friends.
Do ye [Muslims] give them [infidels] friendship [love, bonding, bil-mawadati بِالْمَوَدَّةِ و د د ] when they [infidels] disbelieve in that [revelation Quran] truth which hath come unto you [Muslims], driving out the messenger and you [Muslims] because ye [Muslims] believe in Allah, your Lord?
If ye [Muslims] have come forth to strive in My way and seeking My good pleasure, (show them [infidels] not friendship).
Do ye [Muslims] show friendship unto them [infidels] in secret, when I am best Aware of what ye [Muslims] hide and what ye proclaim? And whosoever [Muslim] doeth it among you, be verily hath strayed from the right way.​

​

What a horrid translation. But what is the matter with it in your opinion? It doesn't say don't take non-Muslims - my enemies...... It says don't take my enemies and your enemies.. . Why? Because some of the Muslims did take friends from the non Muslims who were enemies at the time, and they were deceived and taken advantage of. In the military of today, aren't they taught not to go share their country's war plans with the enemy? Or does that seem illogical to you?

60:8-9 refer to some exceptional circumstances.

Actually the other verses you are upset about are the exception. In Islam as a principle if something is not prohibited it is permitted. The religious people before Islam often wanted to know what is permitted. Allah (Subhaanahu wa ta'ala) changes this way of thinking; they should ask what is prohibited - all other things are permitted.

But go ahead, what is the "some exceptional circumstance"?

To worship Allah, all Muslims must enter into a contract with Allah to comply with the contractual terms in the Quran where Allah promised salvation of eternal life in paradise [JNN: Jannah].

The point that there are non-Muslims who disbelieve in Islam is itself a threat, i.e. the non-Muslims could convert all Muslims to their religion,

You have significant doubt about Allah (Subhaanahu wa ta'ala) and His capabilities. He is capable of anything. He has promised to protect the Muslims and preserve the Qur'an. He will do that until the day of judgment. So you need not fear the world will run out of Muslims. The Qur'an tells the Muslims that they will always be persecuted. So even though there are unfortunately some Muslims who claim one day Islam will be the only religion, this is clearly not true. The Muslims will always be victorious, Allah (Subhaanahu wa ta'ala) says, but this doesn't refer to all people who call themselves Muslim. No, it means real Muslims. Good Muslims. You probably don't know what that means, but.. nevertheless, that's how it is.

Where did Allah state, few people will go to Jannah. Allah is very explicit in many verses referring to Jannah [JNN], e.g.

2:82. And those [Muslims] who believe and do good works: such are rightful owners of the Garden [JNN: Jannah]. They will abide therein [KhLD: Khālidūna] [eternal life].​

There are more than 50 verses [?] in the same context.

I believe you got confused with the Ahadith where a limit of 70,000 is mentioned. This refer to special people but 2:82 applies to all Muslims who comply its conditions.

There is a hadith that says 999 out of 1000 will go to Jahannam. Being a good Muslim is not easy. Whether one gets to Jannah is dependent on the mercy of Allah (Subhaanahu wa ta'ala). No one really deserves to get there.

Mine is 3400++ or 55% based on number of verses over the total 6236 verses.

Completely irrelevant.

In this case, you have to note the chronological sequence.

In what case?

Before that the Meccans were living harmoniously practicing different religions.

Harmoniously oppressing one another. I.e. false.

Muhammad started preaching his religion by insulting the Meccans' religions, and they warned Muhammad not to do so, but he persisted, that is when the Meccans countered after their numerous warning.

The other way around.

In the case of any contention re the Quranic verses, whatever the sense, common or otherwise, no human can judge on behalf of Allah. Only Allah can judge what is right or wrong in accordance to the Quran and Islam.

Do you believe that?

For example, SOME Muslims will view Quran 9:5 as not historical but rather a guiding principle, then go on to kill non-Muslims wherever they find them, who is to judge they are wrong. No human can claim the final authority on the interpretation of 9:5 and other contentious verses, else it would be overriding the authority of Allah, i.e. fitna.

Except that Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) taught interpretation of the verses or the Qur'an. They're not just randomly made up.

This is the problem of Islam where there is a STALEMATE Dilemma.

There is no such a thing.

Whereas it does not happen with Christianity because Christianity has an overriding pacifist maxim of love all -even enemies.

How come they don't practice it? Oh right. Their book doesn't tell them how.. The Qur'an does. And the Qur'an is for the Christians also. It is for all people.

Yes, I mean better Muslim.

If I remember correct, you then mean extremists /terrorists are 'good Muslims' according to you? Do you think they pay zakat? They don't harm those who don't harm them as the Qur'an says? They want for their brothers what they want for themselves? They avoid committing major sins?

The Quran exhort Muslims to compete with each other -to the best of their ability - in compliance with the words of Allah.

Yes - in goodness.

There are 6236 verses in the Quran

It depends a bit on how you count them.

thus the one who comply with more of the 6236 would be the better Muslims.

That's way too black and white but okay, keep it.

If we put the 6236 verses in a checklist we can easily grade the better Muslims in terms of % grades.

Muslims don't do that kind of things.

 

[Joyousperson]

I wouldn't say so.

It is a general principle that the authority of any political, social, religious group is its constitution either explict or implicit.
In this case, the authority of Islam from Allah is confined to the Quran with explanations supported by the Ahadith [contentious].

There is more to Islam than what shows from the Quran someone who doesn't look farther than the ink. It doesn't really mean the verses. (It's Allah (Subhaanahu wa ta'ala) who has perfected it not the book.) Of course the verses are all in the holy book which is complete. But when Allah (Subhaanahu wa ta'ala) says He has perfected the religion it again doesn't just mean the ink on the paper. It means the entire message from the prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) and one of the reasons He says it is perfected is because the religion of the Christians and the Jews, even though from the same God, had become faulty.

You are spinning tales and trying to override the intent of Allah's original message. This is biddah and a great sin.

Allah whole message for Islam is mentioned in the Quran's 6236 verses.
Note this;

2:2 dhālika l-kitābu lā rayba fīhi hudan lil'muttaqīna
Literal
(Word by Word) That (is) the book no doubt in it, a Guidance for the God-conscious.​

The message delivered by Allah was oral over 23 years, but the ultimately the format should be like the Torah and Injeel which are books [kitab].
Note this site that quote the many verses where the Quran as perfected is mentioned;
What is the Quran? Allah describes the Quran in the Quran

I was active in this forum
Submitters (Muslims) Vs. Believers (Mumins) | www.free-minds.org
some time ago and I agree with the Quran-Only views which are supported by very sound arguments.
Whatever is in the Ahadith that is not in alignment with the Quran should be rejected.

The Qur'an supports the Ahadith.

This point is very contentious as opposed by the Quranist -Quran Only Muslim.
Those who support the Ahadith will leverage on the verses that state 'Obey Allah and the Messenger' which is a very weak argument.

Example: If a Chairman of an organization ordered all employees to obey the CEO, it does not mean obeying every word and acts of the CEO at any time. Rather an employees should only obey the CEO within the constitution of the organization and his terms of employment. If the CEO ordered an employee to rape, that has nothing to do with the organization.​

False.

That Allah commanded Muslims not to befriend non-Muslims is not a false command from Allah. Such a command is stated in many verses in the Quran [see next post].

They have interpreted correctly. All the rules for mankind from Allah (Subhaanahu wa ta'ala) are based on the natural state of man. Meaning if a human being is naturally friendly and sympathetic to his fellow humans it would go against that natural instinct to rule otherwise.

Again you are spinning and twisting with your own human views to override what Allah originally intended. This is biddah.
Note the many verses from Allah not to befriend non-Muslims.

This is not vagueness in the Qur'an or the Hadith but in the unlawful implementation of Sharia. But Sharia is man made - the Qur'an is not. Which is why it is no surprise that there are faults in the implementation of Sharia.

This is not about Sharia.
This is about how individual Muslims and groups understand the message and commands of Allah in the Quran and the zeal to perform their religious duty in accordance to the Quran to please Allah.

Yes, the ultimate message of the Quran is not man-made, but it is presented in Arabic via Muhammad.

​

What a horrid translation. But what is the matter with it in your opinion? It doesn't say don't take non-Muslims - my enemies...... It says don't take my enemies and your enemies.. . Why? Because some of the Muslims did take friends from the non Muslims who were enemies at the time, and they were deceived and taken advantage of. In the military of today, aren't they taught not to go share their country's war plans with the enemy? Or does that seem illogical to you?
Actually the other verses you are upset about are the exception. In Islam as a principle if something is not prohibited it is permitted. The religious people before Islam often wanted to know what is permitted. Allah (Subhaanahu wa ta'ala) changes this way of thinking; they should ask what is prohibited - all other things are permitted.

As I had stated, the above 60:1 set the tone. In the context of the whole Quran and the 3400+ verses direct against the non-Muslims, the non-Muslims are the 'enemy' of Islam, darul-al-harb.

But go ahead, what is the "some exceptional circumstance"?

60:8-9 is an exception within the 3400+ verses of anti-infidels.

Meaning and context of verse 60:8-9
According to the tafsir and hadith, this verse was revealed in the context of Abu Bakr's daughter, who refused to let her mother in the house because she was a disbeliever. As Muslims often scream about context (usually when faced with the more violent qur'anic verses), some would say because it was revealed in the context of disbelieving mothers, then it only applies in that context.

{{{2}}}
Imam Ahmad recorded that `Abdullah bin Zubayr said, "Qutaylah came visiting her daughter, Asma' bint Abi Bakr, with some gifts, such as Dibab, cheese and clarified (cooking) butter, and she was an idolatress at that time. Asma' refused to accept her mother's gifts and did not let her enter her house. `A'ishah asked the Prophet about his verdict and Allah sent down the Ayah
Allah Forbids You Not (Qur'an 60:8) - WikiIslam​

You have significant doubt about Allah (Subhaanahu wa ta'ala) and His capabilities. He is capable of anything. He has promised to protect the Muslims and preserve the Qur'an. He will do that until the day of judgment. So you need not fear the world will run out of Muslims. The Qur'an tells the Muslims that they will always be persecuted. So even though there are unfortunately some Muslims who claim one day Islam will be the only religion, this is clearly not true. The Muslims will always be victorious, Allah (Subhaanahu wa ta'ala) says, but this doesn't refer to all people who call themselves Muslim. No, it means real Muslims. Good Muslims. You probably don't know what that means, but.. nevertheless, that's how it is.

Btw, I am a non-theist thus do not believe Allah exists.
However I understand from the Islamic perspective, Allah is all-powerful [omnipotent].

A Muslim is any person who had entered into a contract [covenant] with Allah by stating the Shahadah or in a similar declaration.
I understand there are grades of Muslims depending on how well a Muslim comply with the commands of Allah.

6:165. He [Allah]... and hath exalted some of you in rank [DRJ; darajātin] above others, that He may try you [Muslims] by (the test of) that which He hath given you. Lo!​

There is a hadith that says 999 out of 1000 will go to Jahannam. Being a good Muslim is not easy. Whether one gets to Jannah is dependent on the mercy of Allah (Subhaanahu wa ta'ala).
No one really deserves to get there.

As I had stated, a hadith do not carry much weight especially if it contradict the Quran.

It is easy for any Muslim to get to Jannah [JNN], note 2:82 i.e. just believe and do good works.
The difficulty for the Muslims is which level of Jannah they will end up with depending on their performance as basic Muslim [5 pillars], Mushin [6 pillars of iman] or Muttagin [tagwa].

The point is to be of the highest rank [DRJ; darajātin] re 6:165 [as above] one must perform and comply with more commands within the 6236 verses of the Quran, which cover, hate and do not befriend infidels, war against infidels, kill infidels, subjugate infidels, martyrdom and the likes.
(note I have Quranic verses to support all these)

Completely irrelevant.

Why not? It is very obvious.

If I write a manifesto of 6000 statements with > 3200 statement that condemned the French people in various derogatory mode, surely the main theme of my manifesto is obvious anti-french.​

It is the same with the 3400++ verses that are directed contemptuously toward non-Muslims.

I spent 3 years researching the Quran full time and must have read the whole-Quran more than 100 times. When I read the Quran, I can feel the hatred within me directed against the "disbelievers" mentioned in the Quran.

In what case?

Understanding in the chronological sense meant you have to take into account the historical time and life before Muhammad received his revelation [altered states of consciousness] back to the Injeel and Torah.
Then you will understand why the Qureshi had a problem with Muhammad and the subsequent events that followed.

Harmoniously oppressing one another. I.e. false.

There were no significant religious wars before Muhammad appeared in the scene.

The other way around.

That is not logical in the chronological sense.
Muhammad was living peacefully with the Qureshi before his experience of an altered states of consciousness.
Altered state of consciousness - Wikipedia
Altered state of consciousness - Wikipedia
Altered state of consciousness - Wikipedia

Do you believe that?

Human can judge, but no human can be the final authority on the Islamic doctrine, only Allah can do that which will happen on Judgment Day.
This is very logical.

6:57 "The judgment is only Allah's; He relates the truth and He is the best of deciders".
​

There are more verses to support the above.
Divine (Allah’s) Judgment (Hokm) versus Human Judgment (Hokm)

There is no such a thing.

No such thing as a STALEMATE Dilemma?
The point is the way Islam is presented in the Quran lead to a STALEMATE Dilemma within Muslims.

Note, if the a certain group of Muslims insist their understanding is right, for example, the belief it is right to kill non-Muslims wherever you find them [9:5], WHO ARE YOU, me or Muslims and others to insist they are wrong?
It is not 9:5 only but tons of verses where there are different possible interpretations.

How come they don't practice it? Oh right. Their book doesn't tell them how.. The Qur'an does. And the Qur'an is for the Christians also. It is for all people.

Christianity has an overriding pacifist maxim that command Christians to love all - even enemies.
An overriding pacifist maxim is meant to set the bar, an ideal., thus not all Christians will be able to comply.
God recognized the weakness of humans and thus has provision for forgiveness if there are good reason in not complying, e.g. for the greater good and will punish if not justified.

On the other hand, Islam as represented in the Quran do not have an overriding pacifist maxim but rather exhorts and commands Muslims to kill non-Muslims under vague conditions of threats.

If I remember correct, you then mean extremists /terrorists are 'good Muslims' according to you? Do you think they pay zakat? They don't harm those who don't harm them as the Qur'an says? They want for their brothers what they want for themselves? They avoid committing major sins?

I had stated, the better Muslims are not necessary perfect, but they are the ones who comply with more the 6236 verses in the Quran.
I believe the so-called extremist would comply with the above in accordance to the requirements within the 6236 verses of the Quran.
One additional acts they do above the so-called moderate Muslims is they do not befriend non-Muslims, warred against infidels, and the likes in compliance with what is stated in the 6236 verses of the Quran.

"Yes - in goodness."

2:82. And those [Muslims] who believe and do good [l-ṣāliḥāti; SLA] works: such are rightful owners of the Garden [JNN - jannah]. They will abide therein.​

The point with 'good work' is conditioned upon what is good within the Quran.
Besides others, not befriending non-Muslims, hate non-Muslims and warred against them would be 'good' within the definition in the Quran's 6236 verses.

Note there are at most up to 10 verses out of the 6236 verses in the Quran that has some element of good in reference to non-Muslims, e.g. 5:32, 60:8-9, 41:34.
All the above can be countered is ineffective. I have gone tru a long discussion with JosephZ on this.
There are various 'good verses' but only applies if one is a Muslim.

It depends a bit on how you count them.

Generally, it is accepted, there are 6236 verses in the Quran. If there are differences [some say 6666, etc.], they are insignificant to the total.
Otherwise we can refer to the 77,449 words in the Quran and any different claim is not significant.

That's way too black and white but okay, keep it.

We can start with an initial checklist and then use more criteria to get a more accurate assessment.

For every verse of the 6236 verses, the question to ask each Muslim is;
Do you understand with this verse of Allah? Yes/No.
Do you agree with this verse of Allah. yes/no?
Have you acted upon the intent of this verse. yes/no?
We can ask them to describe their actions.
More questions can be asked to refine the assessment.

Muslims don't do that kind of things.

If we need to be objective, this is a recommendation if we are to assess the rate the performance of each Muslim or the manifesto of a group of Muslims.
Obviously this is better than merely asking a person to express his views subjectively without basis like the above.

The above can be done especially in our current internet age [apps, etc.] and more possible in the future.

 

[Joyousperson]

Here are the verses [there are many more] where Allah commanded Muslims not to befriend non-Muslim, i.e. intimate and general friends.
This command also extent to parents, sons, fathers, bethren and kins if they are non-Muslims.


60:4. ... We [Muslims] have done with you [infidels]. And there hath arisen between us [Muslims] and you [infidels] hostility [l-ʿadāwatu; enmity] and hate [BaGhDa] for ever until ye [infidels] believe in Allah ..

144. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Choose not disbelievers [infidels] for (your) friends [awliyaa] in place of believers. Would ye give Allah a clear warrant against you? 4 144

118. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Take not for intimates [friends biṭānatan بِطَانَةً ب ط ن ] others [infidels] than your own folk, who [these infidels] would spare no pains to ruin you [Muslims]; they [infidels] love to hamper [ʿanittum عَنِتُّمْ ع ن ت ] you [Muslims]. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their [infidels] mouths, but that which their [infidels] breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you [Muslims] the revelations if ye will understand. 3 118

51. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians for friends*. They [infidels] are friends one to another. He [any Muslim] among you [Muslims] who taketh them [infidels] for friends is (one) of them [i.e. infidel]. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. [Muslim become apostate if they befriend Jews or Christians] [They are not friend to one another] [contradict previous verse 48?] [*allies, protector] 5 51

55. Your friend [waliyyukumu] can be only Allah; and His messenger [Muhammad] and those [Muslims] who believe, who establish [QWM: yuqīmūna] worship [l-ṣalata] and pay the poor due [l-zakata], and bow down [RK3: rākiʿūna] (in prayer). 5 55
56. And whoso [Muslims] taketh Allah and His messenger and those [Muslims] who believe for friend [guardian, allies] (will know that), lo! the party of Allah, they [Muslims] are the victorious. 5 56

57. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Choose not for friends such of those [infidels] who received the Scripture before you [Jews and Christians], and of the disbelievers [infidels], as make a jest and sport of your religion [deenakum]. But keep your duty to Allah if ye [Muslims] are true believers. [building hatred for Jews and Christians ] [certain Jews who mocked the Muslims when a prayer] [awliyaa] 5 57

80. Thou seest many of them [believers] making friends [yatawallawna] with those who disbelieve [infidels] - surely ill [BAS; labisa; vile] for them [infidels] is that [intents and deeds toward J-DAY] which they themselves send on before them [toward Judgment Day]: that Allah will be wroth [angry] with them [infidels] and in the doom they [infidels] will abide. 5 80

81. If they [Muslims] believed in Allah and the Prophet and that which is [original and pristinely] revealed unto him, they [Muslims] would not choose them [infidels] for their friends [awliyaa]. But many of them [infidels] are of evil conduct. 5 81

23. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends [WLY; awliyāa] if they take pleasure in disbelief [l-kuf'ra; as infidels] rather than faith [AMN; l-īmāni]. Whoso of you [Muslims] taketh them [infidels] for friends [WLY: awliyāa], such [Muslims] are wrong doers [ZLM: l-ẓālimūna] [sinful]. [create antipathy for parents and kins] 9 23

113. And incline [RKN: tarkanū] not toward those [infidels] who do wrong [ZLM: ẓalamū] lest the Fire touch you, and ye have no protecting friends* against Allah, and afterward ye would not be helped. [*awliyaa] 11 113

4. For him [infidel] it is decreed that whoso [Muslim and anyone] taketh him [infidel who follow the devil] for friend, [AWL: tawallāhu] he [infidel] verily will mislead him [Muslim & etc.] and will guide him [Muslim astray &] to the punishment of the Flame. 22 4

13. He [infidel] calleth unto him [partners, gods] whose harm [ḍarruhu] is nearer [aqrabu] than his benefit [nafʿihi]; verily an evil [labi'sa] patron and verity an evil friend [3SR: l-ʿashīru]! [net negative] 22 13

28. [on hindsight] Alas for me! Ah, would that I had never taken such an one [Satan -infidel re v28] for friend! 25 28

19. Lo! they [infidels] can avail thee [Muhammad] naught against Allah. And lo! as for the wrong doers [infidels], some of them are friends [awliyaa] of others; and Allah is the Friend [waliyyu] of those [Muslims - Muttagin] who ward off (evil). 45 19

14. Hast thou not seen those [Muslims] who take for friends [WLY: tawallaw] a folk [infidels] with whom Allah is wroth [angry with]? They [infidels] are neither of you nor of them, and they [infidels] swear a false oath knowingly. [Muslims reproached for keeping company with Jews and Infidels ...14-21 ] [no awliyaa here] 58 14

13. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Be not friendly [WLY: tatawallaw] with a folk [infidels] with whom Allah is wroth [GhDB: ghaḍiba: angry with], (a folk) [infidel] who have despaired [YAS: isū; has no hope] of the Hereafter as the [infidels] disbelievers despair of those who are in the graves [l-qubūri]. [supporting verse 1:7] 60 13

22. Thou wilt not find folk [Muslims] who believe in Allah and the Last Day loving [WDD: wadda] those [infidels] who oppose [HDD: ḥādda] Allah and His messenger: even though they [infidels] be their fathers or, their sons or their brethren or their clan. … … 58 22

28. Let not the believers [Muslims] take disbelievers [infidels] for their friends [awliyaa] in preference to believers [Muslims]. Whoso [as Muslim] doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye [Muslims] but guard [WQY; tuqātan] yourselves against them [infidels] [tattaqū; WQY], taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you [Muslim] beware [fear] (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying. 3 28

 

[Yytz6]

Here are the verses [there are many more] where Allah commanded Muslims not to befriend non-Muslim, i.e. intimate and general friends.
This command also extent to parents, sons, fathers, bethren and kins if they are non-Muslims.


60:4. ... We [Muslims] have done with you [infidels]. And there hath arisen between us [Muslims] and you [infidels] hostility [l-ʿadāwatu; enmity] and hate [BaGhDa] for ever until ye [infidels] believe in Allah ..

60:4: "There is for you an excellent example (to follow) in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people: "We are clear of you and of whatever ye worship besides Allah: we have rejected you, and there has arisen, between us and you, enmity and hatred for ever,- unless ye believe in Allah and Him alone": But not when Abraham said to his father: "I will pray for forgiveness for thee, though I have no power (to get) aught on thy behalf from Allah." (They prayed): "Our Lord! in Thee do we trust, and to Thee do we turn in repentance: to Thee is (our) Final Goal."

The word that is translated "friend" doesn't have to mean friend. It has many meanings.

 

[Yytz6]

.... the verses that state 'Obey Allah and the Messenger' which is a very weak argument.

Example: If a Chairman of an organization ordered all employees to obey the CEO, it does not mean obeying every word and acts of the CEO at any time. Rather an employees should only obey the CEO within the constitution of the organization and his terms of employment. If the CEO ordered an employee to rape, that has nothing to do with the organization.​

Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) gave both orders and recommendations. The Qur'an says that he is an excellent example;

33:21 "Indeed in the Messenger of Allah (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah much."

If one doesn't read the Hadith, one doesn't know much about Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa sallam).

Meaning and context of verse 60:8-9
According to the tafsir and hadith, this verse was revealed in the context of Abu Bakr's daughter, who refused to let her mother in the house because she was a disbeliever. As Muslims often scream about context (usually when faced with the more violent qur'anic verses), some would say because it was revealed in the context of disbelieving mothers, then it only applies in that context.

{{{2}}}
Imam Ahmad recorded that `Abdullah bin Zubayr said, "Qutaylah came visiting her daughter, Asma' bint Abi Bakr, with some gifts, such as Dibab, cheese and clarified (cooking) butter, and she was an idolatress at that time. Asma' refused to accept her mother's gifts and did not let her enter her house. `A'ishah asked the Prophet about his verdict and Allah sent down the Ayah
Allah Forbids You Not (Qur'an 60:8) - WikiIslam​

Is it historical only to you?

It is easy for any Muslim to get to Jannah [JNN], note 2:82 i.e. just believe and do good works.

Part of believing is not associating anything with Allah (Subhaanahu wa ta'ala). Most people commit this sin all the time. How many people are there in the world doing more good than bad? If it is easy why don't you do either?

I spent 3 years researching the Quran full time and must have read the whole-Quran more than 100 times. When I read the Quran, I can feel the hatred within me directed against the "disbelievers" mentioned in the Quran.

Which translation? It's a shame you spent so much time on it and never even began to understand the miracle it is. There is guidance available on how to study the Qur'an.

Human can judge, but no human can be the final authority on the Islamic doctrine, only Allah can do that which will happen on Judgment Day.
This is very logical.

But you don't believe it

The point is the way Islam is presented in the Quran lead to a STALEMATE Dilemma within Muslims.

You know you don't count? You would have to ask the Muslims.

 

[Joyousperson]

60:4: "There is for you an excellent example (to follow) in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people:
"We are clear of you and of whatever ye worship besides Allah: we have rejected you, and there has arisen, between us and you, enmity and hatred for ever,- unless ye believe in Allah and Him alone":
But not when Abraham said to his father: "I will pray for forgiveness for thee, though I have no power (to get) aught on thy behalf from Allah." (They prayed): "Our Lord! in Thee do we trust, and to Thee do we turn in repentance: to Thee is (our) Final Goal."

Note sure what is your point?

What I have bolded above is a principle in itself.

The later para is only an exception where it happened between Abraham and his father.

The word that is translated "friend" doesn't have to mean friend. It has many meanings.

Yes, I understand 'awliya' can have a range of meanings and in generally it meant no "friendliness" to non-Muslims. However the relevance is glaring when placed in the context of the 3400++ or 55% of verses that are contemptuous and antagonistic toward non-Muslims with various modes of aggression and warfare.

Note the mentioned of antagonism even towards those non-Muslim fathers, sons, bethrens and kins related to the Muslim.

Btw, I quoted 3:118, where Muslims are not to be intimate friend with non-Muslims.

3:118. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Take not for intimates [friends biṭānatan بِطَانَةً ب ط ن ] others [infidels] than your own folk, who [these infidels] would spare no pains to ruin you [Muslims]; they [infidels] love to hamper [ʿanittum عَنِتُّمْ ع ن ت ] you [Muslims]. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their [infidels] mouths, but that which their [infidels] breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you [Muslims] the revelations if ye will understand.
​

Note the critical point here is for the Muslims, what is at stake is a matter of eternal life in paradise or eternal death in Hell.
This emotional and psychological stake is so desperate within the psyche of the believers that SOME will not hesitate to kill their own fathers, brothers, sons, kins for God in order to secure their salvation.
Note to the extent Abraham was willing to sacrifice his own son!

Thus within the above grey areas, the very serious and zealous Muslims who is driven by the impulse for salvation will stick to the more obvious, i.e. do not befriend or be intimate friend with non-Muslims.

 

[Joyousperson]

Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) gave both orders and recommendations. The Qur'an says that he is an excellent example;

33:21 "Indeed in the Messenger of Allah (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah much."

If one doesn't read the Hadith, one doesn't know much about Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa sallam).

The question of Quran-Only versus Including-Ahadith is very contentious.
I have read arguments from both sides.
I agree with the Quran-Only groups that the Quran is sufficient.

The problem with Ahadith is there is so much perversions that is is insulting to Allah if one agree the Ahadith is authoritative.

Problem is Muhammad as an exemplar is Muhammad committed so much sins as a warlord, misogynists, rapist, pedophile, etc. So it would be more safer to stick to the Quran only - the more closer to the direct words of Allah.

Which translation?

I used the Pickthall's translation as my main reference. However, I have access to >50 English translations of the Quran, the various tafsirs, dictionaries, and others. Beside I studied very basic Quranic Arabic and grammar which I think is a necessary minimal requirement.

It's a shame you spent so much time on it and never even began to understand the miracle it is. There is guidance available on how to study the Qur'an.

What miracle? I don't believe in miracle except things that are supported by evidence and philosophical rationality.

Human can judge, but no human can be the final authority on the Islamic doctrine, only Allah can do that which will happen on Judgment Day.
This is very logical.

But you don't believe it

My non-belief is irrelevant.

What is relevant and critical is how SOME evil prone Muslims interpret the evil and violent acts and carry them out to please Allah and no humans nor other Muslim can do anything about it- except Allah.

The point is the way Islam is presented in the Quran lead to a STALEMATE Dilemma within Muslims.

You know you don't count? You would have to ask the Muslims.

You don't seem to get my point.

It has nothing to do with me.

What count are the terrible evil and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims, e.g. IS, Al-Qaeda, Boko-Haram, and that no human on earth can insist they are wrong.
This is because Allah in the Quran permit them to commit those acts under certain vague conditions and no human can argue against it.

For example, a Muslim insist he can kill non-Muslims wherever he can find them based on 9:5 and 5:33 because the non-Muslims has warred against Allah and his messenger, commit "fasadan", i.e. occupy and kill Muslims in Muslim lands;
what authority do you you, me or others have to insist that Muslim is wrong?

The point is no humans [except Allah] can judge that Muslim as above, so that Muslim [and his likes] will continue to kill non-Muslims whenever s/he find them.

What is critical here is not in reference to "a Muslim" but even it is merely 1% of 1.6 billion, that is a pool 16 million potential Muslims who are will kill non-Muslims when influenced by the evil and violent elements in the Quran.
Note 'potential' so not all 16 million will kill but this potential is frightening. The evidence for this is so obvious from the killing of non-Muslims since 1400 years ago.​

 

[Joyousperson]

Yytz6,

Re the Contention of Quran-Only versus Quran+Ahadith, note the various logical arguments from Hamza Abdul Malik who presented very solid argument to support his Quran-only view.
I have listened to most of his video.

Note this video where he pointed out the wrong interpretation of 'Obey Allah and Obey Muhammad' by most Muslims;