Spin off thread: those feelings and 2nd wave feminism

[hijklmnop]

Well, whatever, I'm not going to try to address men collectively or speaks for feminists generally since I believe people have more individual value than their group's generalizations. If you're not asking an honest question and people's attempts to help aren't welcomed then you ARE just whining, IMO. I don't know what kind of affirmation as a man you're looking for but thanks for reminding me not to try with you again.

 

[McScribe]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica] Personally I have no issue with someone wanting to drop out of this conversation. But it is interesting--you see I've made it very clear I think that I support equality. Heck, when I talked about Betty Friedan and Simone de Beauvoir my main purpose was not so much to say 'they sucked' but to say 'I can see how some of their words led to the harsher views of later 2nd Wave feminists on men'.

I'm not looking for affirmation as a man here, let me be clear about that. If it comes from anywhere it comes from myself and my relationship with God. If feminism genuinely stands for human freedom though, then hearing the views of men who are actually sympathetic on that score should be no great hardship. I'd like it if things were not negatively inferred from what I'm saying and my actual words read and understood.
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[Romanseight2005]

Yeah, because before women started demanding respect and equal rights they werent victims of misogynist violence at all....

Really! There were rapes before feminism, in fact there were likely a whole lot more. Women were shamed for being victims, so the liklihood that a rape victim would speak up was rare.

 

[hijklmnop]

Really! There were rapes before feminism, in fact there were likely a whole lot more. Women were shamed for being victims, so the liklihood that a rape victim would speak up was rare.

(You know I was kidding right?!)

 

[Athene]

Most of it comes from a court system which will belive any victim line a woman throws out there ... Its true in Criminal court and its true in family court.

John and Lorena Bobbitt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oh but that was funny wasn't it. . . I mean its a freaking joke now. . .

If a guy ever decides to mutilate a woman's genitals. . . how long would it be until it's funny?

or how about this one. . .

Mary Winkler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Shot him and left him to die to the horror of her own daughter. . . but don't worry . . . mommy's got custody.

Not even blowing your husband's head off and leaving him to die in front of your child... (who by the way denies mommy's abuse stories) or stories like this Mary Winkler - The Secret Pictures - Action News 5 - Memphis, Tennessee will keep a mother from her children.

You could spend more time in jail for killing a slave in the pre-treason south then this woman spent after shooting her husband in the back of the head.

But of course she accidently shot him, didn't think to call 911 or even leave the phone on the hook so he could attempt to do it himself. . . as if he had much of a chance with a bullet in his head. Nope, gun discharges in the back of her husband's head and her idea is. . . hey kids lets go to the beach. . . Don't worry the paramedics are comming for daddy.

Why are we angry?

Maybe its cause of stuff like this.

Meh, up until recently in the UK, and by recently I mean 2 or 3 years ago, men could get away with murder by using the 'nagging wife defence'. Or by claiming she was having an affair. There was no such defence for women, not even suffering years of violence and rape was considered a good defence.

It was actually a feminist organisation, justice for women, who campaigned to have this shocking and misogynistic law scrapped. I can see why some men might be angry about this now tbh, now there is no get out of jail free card for violent men who might go that one step to far and end up killing their wives/girlfriends.

 

[McScribe]

Meh, up until recently in the UK, and by recently I mean 2 or 3 years ago, men could get away with murder by using the 'nagging wife defence'. Or by claiming she was having an affair. There was no such defence for women, not even suffering years of violence and rape was considered a good defence.

It was actually a feminist organisation, justice for women, who campaigned to have this shocking and misogynistic law scrapped. I can see why some men might be angry about this now tbh, now there is no get out of jail free card for violent men who might go that one step to far and end up killing their wives/girlfriends.

Excuse me, but are you implying that anyone here is angry about that?

 

[Athene]

In so far as rape is about power and anger, and there are aspects of feminism that men should be angry about, they sort of have a point. I'm not saying that that in any way justifies their actions I'm just saying I can see the connection. It's a pity that feminists can't.

Like McScribe says the issue is not that men object to equal rights, it's that feminism, more than anything, is what's responsible for the tension and animosity between the genders. The fact that any mention of the idea that there are aspects to feminism that may be negative is met with "you just can't stand that women have equal rights" is proof of this. When one's position has no merit, most people go on the attack like that. Something that's abundantly common among feminists.

Actually, we do see the connection. And the connection with the rise in inappropriate contentography, particularly films which brutalise, humiliate and degrade women. One inappropriate content star even admitted that the degrading scenes he participates in is for the benefit of every 'regular' man out there who has to put up with uppity women. Why is male violence towards women, almost always sexual in nature?

 

[Athene]

Excuse me, but are you implying that anyone here is angry about that?

I made no such claim.

 

[dallasapple]

I just can't believe that anyone would buy into a rapist's excuse for even one millisecond that feminism is to blame for what they do when crimes of a sexual nature have been inflicted upon mostly women since the beginning of time...

But you dont undrstand..BEFORE feminism..when a man raped his wife..it was only becasue it was his lawful right to..and she is to submit after all..so...it wasnt even wrong in the first place..So NOW that becasue of feminism its ILLEGAL..thats why femeinism is to blame..for men committign a CRIME agaisnt here..get it?It wasnt a crime before now it is so its femeinisms fault..

Dallas

 

[JaneFW]

I haven't read this thread for about 3 days, but I'm just jumping off what Dallas said here. I was giving my h a hard time at the weekend, half in jest, and half in jest - or maybe not at all - he said that he wished it was "the old days" when men could just "punch" their wives. I told him that he might find that she punched him back. His response was to say no, that women knew their place then!

I'm still processing that comment.

 

[Romanseight2005]

(You know I was kidding right?!)

I wasn't talking to you. I was addressing the entire issue of rape and it's supposed link to feminism.

 

[JanniGirl]

So, what's the problem with feminism, again? -- Really. I'm asking an honest question.

 

[Created2Write]

Thanks for explaing. I completely disagree, especially with regards to the idea that the problem is with men refusing to give up power and privelidge though. I say that because if you look at what the guys here are saying, there's nothing at all in any of it that even hints and that. In fact we've all said that we completely support equality for women.

Exactly.

 

[McScribe]

So, what's the problem with feminism, again? -- Really. I'm asking an honest question.

I have tried posting about this several times. I have been accused of whining and hating women no matter what I have said.

 

[JaneFW]

So, what's the problem with feminism, again? -- Really. I'm asking an honest question.

From what I can see, especially out there on the internet - men prefer things the way they were.

 

[JanniGirl]

McScribe,

Honestly, your complaints seem to be that men don't feel "good" about feminism and don't feel like they can talk about not feeling good. I'm asking, reasonably, why they don't feel "good". You wanted to discuss the ideology of certain feminists -- and I'm okay with that, buy I'm not sure why their (minority) views matter so much to you. That's not what feminism looks like -- so even if they wanted all men dead, it certainly hasn't come true AND the vast majority of feminists hold no such views.

So, what's your real beef with feminism, in practice today?

 

[McScribe]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7616142/

Right here in the thread I'm quoting you see the concept: if a MAN complains he is not getting enough sex, maybe he should just accept it. If it were a woman posting you'd see sympathy. Double standard.

Supporting feminism is not in the interest of any man or woman who advocates good relations between the genders. It is not in the interest of people who are interested in freedom for all people, not just women.

 

[McScribe]

From what I can see, especially out there on the internet - men prefer things the way they were.

This is pure propaganda. The only reason why people say this is out of sheer frustration, and frankly it's because some people want things to be polarized to provide propaganda for the feminist cause.

 

[Athene]

From what I can see, especially out there on the internet - men prefer things the way they were.

Except things that don't automatically favour them, these things should be changed immediately!

 

[JaneFW]

The websites are out there. If I can find them, anyone can.