Spin off thread: those feelings and 2nd wave feminism

[Athene]

So I don't end up derailing that thread.

Here is McScribe's post.

I apologize, I think your response got buried here.

And here are my basic reviews, and if you'd like we could go into greater depth in another thread, but this is about feelings so here goes.

This may surprise you, but actually in Simone de Beauvoir I don't find anything terribly menacing. However in The Second Sex I found that she was (from my point of view) talking about her gathered understanding of what it felt like to be a woman up to the time she was writing. I actually found it very illuminating and (this may surprise you) the book filled me with a sense of compassion. Now you see in a positive way I found this to be a book that was intended to generate sympathy. I don't think the purpose of her writing was to be objective but to encourage awareness.

What I dislike in Second Wave Feminism is not the awareness that say de Beauvoir or Friedan offer (though at times I find myself intensely disliking what I know will spawn out of Friedan) however I'm surprised that you see Mary Daly as anything but entirely biased in her reasoning. In a sense I see people like her and Robin Morgan for example as the Napoleon to de Beauvoir's Snowball or Major. Hatred and lust for power spawned in that hatred taking what is essentially a good recognition of an imbalance of justice and giving it a toxic quality. Mary Daly in particular made it fashionable to hate men; Millet and Morgan made it fashionable to lie about doing it in the guise of caring about women. So essentially de Beauvoir (as an example of the earlier part of the wave) made it possible to focus on the emotional state of woman as being a valid cause and concern for change; Daly (as an example of the latter day of it) made it possible to turn that to paranoia and hatred of the patriarchy.

Even the use of the term is a distortion--it used to simply refer to the Biblical leaders from the Book of Genesis. Now it means "a form of tyranny used to oppress women". It's a pejorative that makes it harder to see that men and women have struggled for freedom, human rights and so on throughout history and often blundering, often doing badly but with a strain of hope for doing the best. That has changed thanks to Second Wave Feminism. Now it is not even possible to have recognition of the good qualities men might have, thanks to them. Now we are all monsters.

 

[Athene]

This may surprise you, but actually in Simone de Beauvoir I don't find anything terribly menacing. However in The Second Sex I found that she was (from my point of view) talking about her gathered understanding of what it felt like to be a woman up to the time she was writing. I actually found it very illuminating and (this may surprise you) the book filled me with a sense of compassion. Now you see in a positive way I found this to be a book that was intended to generate sympathy. I don't think the purpose of her writing was to be objective but to encourage awareness.

de Beauvoir starts off in the introduction of her book by throwing out the idea that women are 'the other' while man is the absolute. The rest of her book is her objective reasoning for her belief that this is so. She goes through biology, history, popular culture demonstrating how women are treated as the other to the man's absolute.

What I dislike in Second Wave Feminism is not the awareness that say de Beauvoir or Friedan offer (though at times I find myself intensely disliking what I know will spawn out of Friedan) however I'm surprised that you see Mary Daly as anything but entirely biased in her reasoning. In a sense I see people like her and Robin Morgan for example as the Napoleon to de Beauvoir's Snowball or Major. Hatred and lust for power spawned in that hatred taking what is essentially a good recognition of an imbalance of justice and giving it a toxic quality. Mary Daly in particular made it fashionable to hate men; Millet and Morgan made it fashionable to lie about doing it in the guise of caring about women. So essentially de Beauvoir (as an example of the earlier part of the wave) made it possible to focus on the emotional state of woman as being a valid cause and concern for change; Daly (as an example of the latter day of it) made it possible to turn that to paranoia and hatred of the patriarchy.

In what way did Mary Daly make it fashionable to hate men? How was this hatred against men realised? What lies are you talking about? The Second Sex is not so much concerned about women's emotional state, as their subordinate status in society. It was the fact of women's subordinate status with the convincing objective reasoning that went with it, that started the political movement that was second wave feminism.

Even the use of the term is a distortion--it used to simply refer to the Biblical leaders from the Book of Genesis.

They were the patriarchs. Patriarchy the social, political and cultural system is one where women are excluded from most positions of power and authority. IMV hatred is a completely reasonable response to oppressive social systems. Do you disagree?

 

[McScribe]

Well for example look at this: Simone de Beauvoir says "I recall also a young Trotskyite standing on a platform at a boistrous meeting and getting ready to use her fists, in spite of her evident fragility. She was denying her feminine weakness, but it was for love of a militant male whose equal she wished to be. The attitude of defiance of many American women proves that they are haunted by a sense of their femininity." Now there are a few other examples in the paragraph in question, but they are exactly like the one I quoted. How does that prove anything, exactly? How is this objective reasoning?

First of all: if a man was doing what that young woman was doing, most people would simply say that he was brave or impetuous. And curiously, I would say the same thing of a young woman. It is de Beauvoir who appears to feel the need to distinguish between the two.

Second, I should qualify something. While I felt a lot of sympathy with some of the things de Beauvoir was saying, her discussion of Other ness reveal her Marxism first and foremost. So on that basis I find her views on the subject hardly objective; this is a call to action.

Third: it is interesting that while de Beauvoir makes comparisons with Haitians and with the plight of African-Americans that the other part of her point of view is existentialist. In other words her call to liberty does not seem to recommend women as citizens taking their place among fellow citizens but as individuals who have the right to pursue self determination. At a glance this sounds good until you read a phrase like "Every time transcendence falls back into immanence, stagnation, there is a degradation of existence into the 'en sois', the brutish life of subjection to given conditions, and of liberty into constraint and contingence. This downfall represents a moral fault if the subject consents to it; if it is inflicted upon him, it spells frustration and oppression. In both cases it is an absolute evil. Every individual concerned to justify his existence feels that in his existence involves an undefined need to transcend himself, to engage in freely chosen projects." De Beauvoir, much as I would if I were writing a book on faith, makes an emotional appeal and then uses reason to back it up. That's hardly objective. And I don't think that's a bad thing to do per se but you do have to accept the faith to begin with for the theology to be acceptable. It's not the same as though, say, you were talking about biological differences between common chimpanzees and bonobos.

As for Mary Daly, where to even begin?

When she said in an interview "If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males. People are afraid to say that kind of stuff anymore." What do you think the implications of it are? When she talks about the connectedness of women and nature, and talks about the death relationship of men and nature, there is a direct accusation against men. She calls worship of God inappropriate contentographic.

 

[McScribe]

The use of the word patriarchy is nevertheless an invented use of the word--similarly to the way that French Revolutionaries used the word 'Capet' to describe French monarchy, implying that it was medieval and outdated.

Exclusion and discrimination can be painful to experience. But I was struck by something in a newspaper sent out by a local church. Girls still have guides and organizations along with them that are just for girls. Boys are not able to have this any longer. It was exclusionary to girls, therefore unfair...and so I remember as a teenager thinking "Why don't they either integrate the whole thing or leave it alone?" I think that the patriarchy idea leads to this kind of thinking, that because men have had something special that allowed them to exclude others for a long time women deserve the same thing.

 

[JaneFW]

Exclusion and discrimination can be painful to experience. But I was struck by something in a newspaper sent out by a local church. Girls still have guides and organizations along with them that are just for girls. Boys are not able to have this any longer. It was exclusionary to girls, therefore unfair...and so I remember as a teenager thinking "Why don't they either integrate the whole thing or leave it alone?" I think that the patriarchy idea leads to this kind of thinking, that because men have had something special that allowed them to exclude others for a long time women deserve the same thing.

Don't they still have Boy Scouts of America?

Wikipedia:

A Cub Scout is a member of the section of the worldwide Scouting movement for young persons, mainly boys normally aged about 7 to 11. In some countries they are known by their original name of Wolf Cubs and are often referred to simply as Cubs. The movement is often referred to simply as Cubbing. Originally, like the Boy Scouts, the Cub Scouts were open only to boys; girls were expected to join the Brownies. Since about 1990 the Cubs has been open to both girls and boys in several countries, but in the United States, it is still exclusively for boys. Some countries also have a Sea Scout version of Cub Scouts.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cub_Scout#cite_note-scoutbase-0

Girl Guides or Girl Scouts is a parallel movement to Scouting. It evolved from the Scouting movement in the early years of the 20th century[1]. Girls were attracted to Scouting from its inception in 1907. In different places around the world, the movement developed in diverse ways. In some places, girls attempted to join Scouting organisations and it was decided that single-gender organisations were a better solution[2]. In other places, girls groups were started, some of them later to open up to boys or merge with boys' organisations. In other instances, mixed groups were formed, sometimes to later split. In the same way, the name Girl Guide or Girl Scout has been used by groups at different times and in different places, with some groups changing from one to another. In the past, boys had to join the Boy Scouts or Cub Scouts but in recent years Guides has been open for both boys and girls to join in some countries.

 

[McScribe]

Don't they still have Boy Scouts of America?

Wikipedia:

Not in Canada. Seriously though, in Canada it is integrated, and is in some European countries too.

 

[chaz345]

Don't they still have Boy Scouts of America?

There have been pushes to have the Boy Scouts integrated in the US too.

But the problem exists even in groups/movements for adults. Look at all the objections to Promise Keepers being for men only. They eventually caved and now have mixed gender events. You don't see men objecting to not being allowed into Women of Worth events, do you?

 

[moonkitty]

Don't they still have Boy Scouts of America?

Wikipedia:

I believe McScribe is in Canada

I'm not 100% sure of all the different types of scouts/guides in Canada, but I believe the two most popular ones are Scout Canada--which was an off shoot of Boy Scouts that was started originally in England and was exclusively boys up until 1972.

Girl Guides are part of W.A.G.G.G.S which stands for World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts--the American Girl Scouts and Canadian Girl Guides are part of this organization.


What type of scout/guides vary between countries. In many European country they just have one scout/guide program that is open to both sexes.

 

[moonkitty]

There have been pushes to have the Boy Scouts integrated in the US too.

But the problem exists even in groups/movements for adults. Look at all the objections to Promise Keepers being for men only. They eventually caved and now have mixed gender events. You don't see men objecting to not being allowed into Women of Worth events, do you?

I say this as a 7 year member of Girl Scouts (I'm a leader and a service unit manager who oversees 40 troops at the moment) Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are two different non-profit groups. It is kind of like Pepsi and Coke, both are similar but both are different companies. I think this is why there is an exclusively for girl scouting program (The Girl Guides) in Canada, but no longer an exclusively for boys scouting program. When the boy scout version in Canada integrated both sexes in the 70's the did not combine with the Girl Guides. So there are now two major scout programs in Canada, the Girl Guides and Scout Canada.

So if the Boy Scouts were to start allowing girls, there will still be a Girl Scouts of America. We have different funding, different laws and by-laws and sell different products.

 

[McScribe]

Hey, no offense but having cleared that up can we get back to the OP?

 

[JaneFW]

Of course. I was just curious.

 

[JaneFW]

You don't see men objecting to not being allowed into Women of Worth events, do you?

You're welcome to take my seat at any of those events, at any time.

 

[dallasapple]

I have an example of what 2nd wave feminism adressed..a woman goes to rent an apartment in NYC in the 70's..and if she is single she is automatically considered financially unstable or not having the ability to pay her rent on time.If she can ?She must be a hooker..posing as someone with a legitimate job..

That is not 'man hating'..and all be it DIRECLY would affect her EMOTIONAL well being..the movement wasnt to adress that part ..but to adress her STATUS how she is viewed by soceity in general..

Also sorry ..but the DECRIMINALIZATION of women having an abortion..was also an example..

Segregation of the sexes (men only ) sections in resturants as well..resturants open to the GENERAL public(all are welcome) had sections where ONLY men could be seated..this was in the SEVENTIES not the 1800's..

Dallas

 

[McScribe]

I have an example of what 2nd wave feminism adressed..a woman goes to rent an apartment in NYC in the 70's..and if she is single she is automatically considered financially unstable or not having the ability to pay her rent on time.If she can ?She must be a hooker..posing as someone with a legitimate job..

That is not 'man hating'..and all be it DIRECLY would affect her EMOTIONAL well being..the movement wasnt to adress that part ..but to adress her STATUS how she is viewed by soceity in general..

Also sorry ..but the DECRIMINALIZATION of women having an abortion..was also an example..

Segregation of the sexes (men only ) sections in resturants as well..resturants open to the GENERAL public(all are welcome) had sections where ONLY men could be seated..this was in the SEVENTIES not the 1800's..

Dallas

The reference to man hating is with regard to Mary Daly and her influence in particular. I have no argument that a woman on her own should by default be treated as any other citizen unless she is proved to be a criminal or something.

 

[chaz345]

Hey, no offense but having cleared that up can we get back to the OP?

Well as relates to some of the ideas of feminism, the fact that there's a push to allow girls into boys only organizations but no push to allow boys into girls only organizations seems somewhat connected to me.

 

[JaneFW]

Well as relates to some of the ideas of feminism, the fact that there's a push to allow girls into boys only organizations but no push to allow boys into girls only organizations seems somewhat connected to me.

As posted on page 2

Girl Guides or Girl Scouts is a parallel movement to Scouting. It evolved from the Scouting movement in the early years of the 20th century[1]. Girls were attracted to Scouting from its inception in 1907. In different places around the world, the movement developed in diverse ways. In some places, girls attempted to join Scouting organisations and it was decided that single-gender organisations were a better solution[2]. In other places, girls groups were started, some of them later to open up to boys or merge with boys' organisations. In other instances, mixed groups were formed, sometimes to later split. In the same way, the name Girl Guide or Girl Scout has been used by groups at different times and in different places, with some groups changing from one to another. In the past, boys had to join the Boy Scouts or Cub Scouts but in recent years Guides has been open for both boys and girls to join in some countries.
​

 

[McScribe]

Well as relates to some of the ideas of feminism, the fact that there's a push to allow girls into boys only organizations but no push to allow boys into girls only organizations seems somewhat connected to me.

With regard to the OP then how do you see that as a product of 2nd Wave feminist thought?

 

[chaz345]

You're welcome to take my seat at any of those events, at any time.

Well that's just thing, I wouldn't want to and neither would many men that I know. Which is why I(we) find it curious that it seems that there's a awful lot of women clammoring to get in to the men's groups/organizations.

 

[chaz345]

With regard to the OP then how do you see that as a product of 2nd Wave feminist thought?

Not terribly familiar with the specifics of various waves of feminism but it certainly speaks to the idea that they try to push that men and women are not just equal in value but are the same in almost all respects.

 

[JaneFW]

Bear me out on this one because it's thought being formed but - I can imagine why females wanted to be in the boy scouts, when there was no equivalent for them, and they wanted to do that stuff too. That goes for all those things that were kept exclusively for men at that time. But now that it is more of an open door policy, I can't imagine why, for instance, boys want to hang out with girls, especially at that young age, and why they wouldn't want to be off doing boy things. I was only ever in the Girl Guides for, like, a month because the only one in my area was run by a Protestant church and we were Catholics, but all it was (in the 70's) was dressing up and holding plays and playing with glitter. Boooooring. I think that boys were learning how to tie knots, and things far more interesting. I'm sure it has changed tho'.