Spin off thread: those feelings and 2nd wave feminism

Luther073082

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From what I've read it seems that the reason women aren't allowed is because it's automatically assumed that women won't be physically up to it, and even if they were they might distract the men by being sexy and all that.

You don't have to be big and strong to fire an M16. The recoil is miniscule and the weapon even when fully loaded isn't heavy.

And as its been said. . . Israel does it.

Whats ridiculous is our military spends millions to train women to fly fighter jets in the interest of equality. . . But its rules restrict them from ever flying the jets into combat.

And whats really stupid is that women, physically speaking are typically more suited to flying a fighter then men are being as they are shorter and smaller, they fit in the cockpit easier and more importantly they . . . with training can stand up to more G-forces then a taller man as shorter smaller people are better suited to G-forces then taller people.

However they can't be used in combat, all they can do is fly around and impress us that we are "equal" now because a woman can fly a fighter jet.
 
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Athene

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You don't have to be big and strong to fire an M16. The recoil is miniscule and the weapon even when fully loaded isn't heavy.

And as its been said. . . Israel does it.

Whats ridiculous is our military spends millions to train women to fly fighter jets in the interest of equality. . . But its rules restrict them from ever flying the jets into combat.

You closet feminist you.
 
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JaneFW

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Whats ridiculous is our military spends millions to train women to fly fighter jets in the interest of equality. . . But its rules restrict them from ever flying the jets into combat.

And whats really stupid is that women, physically speaking are typically more suited to flying a fighter then men are being as they are shorter and smaller, they fit in the cockpit easier and more importantly they . . . with training can stand up to more G-forces then a taller man as shorter smaller people are better suited to G-forces then taller people.

However they can't be used in combat, all they can do is fly around and impress us that we are "equal" now because a woman can fly a fighter jet.
But that's not the fault of the women.
 
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chaz345

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You don't have to be big and strong to fire an M16. The recoil is miniscule and the weapon even when fully loaded isn't heavy.

And as its been said. . . Israel does it.

If it were about carrying only an M16 you'd have a point. But if you look our soldiers are carrying/wearing a LOT more than that. Usually in the range of 70 to 100 lbs worth of stuff. Now I'm not going to say that there's no women who can do that, and those that can and want to should be allowed to. But it has to be accepted that the number of women who can and want to do that is exceedlingly small and it's wrong on all levels to create lower standards of physical capability for women so more of them qualify. Evaluate the physical performance standards for everyone and see if changing technology and such has made it possible for the job to be safely done by more people? Sure, absolutely. But absolutely identical standards need to be applied to everyone, regardless of gender.
 
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Luther073082

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You closet feminist you.

If feminism means giving women equal rights and equal responsibilities as men then I would be called a feminist.

But feminism has not ment that for almost 50 years. It has for nearly 50 years ment the pursuit of special rights for women and the cultural degradation to men.

Its pretty darn disturbing that we still have affirmative action in favor of women in colleges and the work place despite the fact that women now statistically are the majority in these places. And in fact schools still concentrate on how they can teach better to girls. I went to public schools until I graduated from high school. . . in my 13 years of public schooling (including Kindergarden). . . I read the book Jane Eyre 3 times because it was required reading. . .

Did we ever have to read Moby Dick? No. . . The Red Badge of Courage? No. . . Of course not those novels would only appeal to boys. But we read Jane Eyre. . . 3 times. . . And that was just such an appealing book for boys. Thats just a guy's book right there.

And its frustrating that despite the fact that women live longer and always have the insane amounts spent on women's health care (Even when pregnancy related healthcare is taken out.) compaired to the small amounts dedicated to men's health care.

And its downright annoying that femists trumpet the so called "wage gap" and cry about the "glass ceiling" when statistically men work more hours and take more dangerous jobs (over 90% of workplace fatalities are men).
 
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chaz345

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Could you not read Moby Dick or The Red Badge of Courage outside of school? At least you should have passed the tests easily. :) I got Shakespeare at 13, which was okay because I learned to love him very early, so it was the opposite for me.
What he could read outside of school is entirely beside the point. The point was that what the school was requiring and teaching appeals to girls more than boys.

There's no way one can say that today's feminism is about equality when, in addressing the current 60/40 split in college admissions that favors women, a feminist says "we've come a long way, we've almost reached equality in this area". And the response by you supposedly reasonable feminists is to defend it or to try to say that it means something other than what it does.
 
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JaneFW

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What he could read outside of school is entirely beside the point. The point was that what the school was requiring and teaching appeals to girls more than boys.

There's no way one can say that today's feminism is about equality when, in addressing the current 60/40 split in college admissions that favors women, a feminist says "we've come a long way, we've almost reached equality in this area". And the response by you supposedly reasonable feminists is to defend it or to try to say that it means something other than what it does.
As you gave my response, you saved me from having to do it. :thumbsup:

Also, my point was that what I was required to learn appealed more to boys than girls (Julius Caeser - absolutely not girly reading) and yet I survived.
 
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Johnnz

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Where is this debate heading? As a Christian I am aware that societal values often don't coincide with Christian ones. No surprises there. But, as a Christian I am concerned to discover what the Scriptures present as the Divine pattern. Then, it's up to me to see how I can apply that in my life.

My basic position is for equality between the sexes in a full participation in life through what Jesus has accomplished.

John
NZ
 
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Where is this debate heading? As a Christian I am aware that societal values often don't coincide with Christian ones. No surprises there. But, as a Christian I am concerned to discover what the Scriptures present as the Divine pattern. Then, it's up to me to see how I can apply that in my life.

My basic position is for equality between the sexes in a full participation in life through what Jesus has accomplished.

John
NZ

I agree, but I also don't agree that 2nd Wave feminism is always the best vehicle for that.

Maybe this is some kind of empathy thing, or that plate of spaghetti thing. Like if I'm not saying "Dude, feminism ROCKS!" all the time and never offering critical thinking I am a rampant misogynist rather than a guy who likes to think for himself.
 
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Johnnz

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I agree, but I also don't agree that 2nd Wave feminism is always the best vehicle for that.

Maybe this is some kind of empathy thing, or that plate of spaghetti thing. Like if I'm not saying "Dude, feminism ROCKS!" all the time and never offering critical thinking I am a rampant misogynist rather than a guy who likes to think for himself.

I see my responsibility being to assess any viewpoint against what I understand as biblical values; that's my ruler. In saying that I openly acknowledge that, regarding feminism, my previous understandings were challenged by some feminists and subsequent interaction and debate from a variety of Christian sources. That was just another issue for me where I was required to develop a meaningful, market capable position on something that had arisen. The church has done this from its beginning, as new issues arose - slavery, science, evolution, and more currently post-modernism and globalization.

John
NZ
 
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k450ofu3k-gh-5ipe

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Abortion, which of course the man gets no choice. -- If he doesn't want the child and she does. . . he has to pay up child support. If he wants the child and she doesn't she has the child summarily executed for being inconvient.

My radical solution is to just make abortion illegal.

Removal of man's presumption of innocence in when the crime is in regards to any act of violence against a woman. --See Violence against Women act

Constant lobbying for more education dollars despite the fact that women are the clear majority in Univerisities.

Constant lobbying for more non-pregnancy related health care dollars despite the fact that women live far longer then men on average and command the vast majority of the health care dollars already.

Applauding acts of violence against men see and defending any woman who claims to be abused no matter what the evidence says to the contrary.

In a rape case her name is a big secret but his face and name are all over the paper.

The constant and consistent blaming of men and only men for single motherhood.

Taking any criticism of their movement, their tatics, or their views and accusing anyone who disagrees with any of these as "hating women". Or supporting the mythical patriarchy. Which is exactly what you are doing, you are very well versed in their tatics.

Claiming to want equality but never pushing for equal responsibilities. I don't see any women out there pushing for women to be responsible for signing up for selective service. . .

No fault divorce which allows a woman to divorce a man for any reason she feels like, take the house, take the kids, and often force him to pay alimony and child support. Of course women find divorce courts to be fair, they get everything thats important!!

My thoughts and questions exactly!
 
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Luther073082

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As you gave my response, you saved me from having to do it. :thumbsup:

Also, my point was that what I was required to learn appealed more to boys than girls (Julius Caeser - absolutely not girly reading) and yet I survived.

Thats surprises me. . . Shakespere seems to appeal to both men and women in my experience.

Even though its not IMO one of his best works, I'm still a fan of Romeo and Juliet.
 
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MessianicMommy

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If feminism means giving women equal rights and equal responsibilities as men then I would be called a feminist.

But feminism has not ment that for almost 50 years. It has for nearly 50 years ment the pursuit of special rights for women and the cultural degradation to men.

Its pretty darn disturbing that we still have affirmative action in favor of women in colleges and the work place despite the fact that women now statistically are the majority in these places. And in fact schools still concentrate on how they can teach better to girls. I went to public schools until I graduated from high school. . . in my 13 years of public schooling (including Kindergarden). . . I read the book Jane Eyre 3 times because it was required reading. . .

Did we ever have to read Moby Dick? No. . . The Red Badge of Courage? No. . . Of course not those novels would only appeal to boys. But we read Jane Eyre. . . 3 times. . . And that was just such an appealing book for boys. Thats just a guy's book right there.

And its frustrating that despite the fact that women live longer and always have the insane amounts spent on women's health care (Even when pregnancy related healthcare is taken out.) compaired to the small amounts dedicated to men's health care.

And its downright annoying that femists trumpet the so called "wage gap" and cry about the "glass ceiling" when statistically men work more hours and take more dangerous jobs (over 90% of workplace fatalities are men).

Strange, the books you mentioned and many more were on our reading lists in Alabama... Then again I read some of what was on the public school list, as our list through the Mennonites was different. I had to BEG and PLEAD out of "The old man and the sea" and a few other similar books and short stories from my literature class. It was just so awful and it just plodded on and there never was a good ending. I wanted to die instead of finish my literature class, and I LOVE literature!!

I seem to recall reading "The Red Badge of Courage" as well as other similar works. Never did have to read Jane Eyre, though it is in my library. It's in a massive stack of books I've not yet gotten to.

As far as the wage gap goes, it really does depend on the job and whether or not there are many women in that sector, and sometimes the region of the country (or which country) we're talking about.

While some of the more "rabid" elements are pushing to make things more a "woman's world" than a world of equality, we have many nations where women and girls are legitimately disadvantaged and could use a leg up. :sorry:
 
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chaz345

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As far as the wage gap goes, it really does depend on the job and whether or not there are many women in that sector, and sometimes the region of the country (or which country) we're talking about.


The wage gap is a myth. When comparing truly equal amounts of truly equal work, men and women get paid the same. The reason that statistically it appears women get paid less is that, because of the fact that in most families more of the child rearing duties fall to them, women tend to a) not work as many hours and b) tend to choose lower paying fields and positions that allow greater time freedoms to be with their families.
 
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favoritetoyisjoy

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The wage gap is a myth. When comparing truly equal amounts of truly equal work, men and women get paid the same. The reason that statistically it appears women get paid less is that, because of the fact that in most families more of the child rearing duties fall to them, women tend to a) not work as many hours and b) tend to choose lower paying fields and positions that allow greater time freedoms to be with their families.


Myth or not, people of either gender don't get paid less than what they accept.
 
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MessianicMommy

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The wage gap is a myth. When comparing truly equal amounts of truly equal work, men and women get paid the same. The reason that statistically it appears women get paid less is that, because of the fact that in most families more of the child rearing duties fall to them, women tend to a) not work as many hours and b) tend to choose lower paying fields and positions that allow greater time freedoms to be with their families.
It depends. T

here are often single women without children in certain jobs and they still get paid less. There are plenty of statistics to prove such, even to this day.

And it depends on the field concerned. I'm thinking more on the lines of computer tech jobs where one could even work from home, or medical related fields (coding, tech work).

Myth or not, people of either gender don't get paid less than what they accept.

Sometimes you don't know until somehow someone leaks the information that x job is expected to get x wage, and someone is getting paid higher and they were hired at the same time as you. :sorry:

Then it comes down to the company involved to do what is right by their employees.
 
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mrisin

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