Spin off thread: those feelings and 2nd wave feminism

[chaz345]

No...I know what it is to love someone despite their very wrong actions, trust me. HOWEVER...I refuse to try and "understand" what to me is a convenient excuse. I don't believe there's any truth to the argument. That's all. It's not that I don't care to understand WHY people do horrible things, it's more that I see certain things as lies/excuses and other things as more understandable explanations. Do I think that feminism leads men to rape? No, not for a second.

So you, despite what men themself say about it, don't believe that there are aspects of feminism that anger men?

 

[JanniGirl]

Yes. Why the deep-seated anger towards women? -- what does it stem from? You understand it, so tell me.

 

[chaz345]

Yes. Why the deep-seated anger towards women? -- what does it stem from? You understand it, so tell me.

But it's not deep seated anger towards women, it's an anger toward certain aspects of and attitudes created by feminism. Attitudes that are held by many men too.

 

[JanniGirl]

Once again, a non-answer. What "certain" aspects and attitudes do you refer to? (and one's that actually exist and aren't a figment of someone's imagination).

They must be pretty HUGE to explain a man wanting to rape a woman over it ....

 

[chaz345]

Once again, a non-answer. What "certain" aspects and attitudes do you refer to? (and one's that actually exist and aren't a figment of someone's imagination).

They must be pretty HUGE to explain a man wanting to rape a woman over it ....

Specifics as to the problematic attitudes and aspects have been discussed over and over in this very thread.

But it's not so much a case of a specific individual thing causing someone to say to himself " hmm, I'm going to rape someone because of this". It's more a case of the anger over these things, probably usually combined with other things, like an abusive mother, or something like that all boiling over one day.

Queue the accusations that I'm defending or justifying rape.

 

[Luther073082]

Yes. Why the deep-seated anger towards women? -- what does it stem from? You understand it, so tell me.

Most of it comes from a court system which will belive any victim line a woman throws out there ... Its true in Criminal court and its true in family court.

John and Lorena Bobbitt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oh but that was funny wasn't it. . . I mean its a freaking joke now. . .

If a guy ever decides to mutilate a woman's genitals. . . how long would it be until it's funny?

or how about this one. . .

Mary Winkler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Shot him and left him to die to the horror of her own daughter. . . but don't worry . . . mommy's got custody.

Not even blowing your husband's head off and leaving him to die in front of your child... (who by the way denies mommy's abuse stories) or stories like this http://www.wmctv.com/Global/story.asp?S=5996728 will keep a mother from her children.

You could spend more time in jail for killing a slave in the pre-treason south then this woman spent after shooting her husband in the back of the head.

But of course she accidently shot him, didn't think to call 911 or even leave the phone on the hook so he could attempt to do it himself. . . as if he had much of a chance with a bullet in his head. Nope, gun discharges in the back of her husband's head and her idea is. . . hey kids lets go to the beach. . . Don't worry the paramedics are comming for daddy.

Why are we angry?

Maybe its cause of stuff like this.

 

[McScribe]

I don't think what is being said is accurate. I think that a lot of men feel very confused about how to even have a modern relationship. It seems like you are supposed to be confident and lead--but not really. That you are supposed to be a provider--but not really. That you are supposed to be full of desire for your woman--but not really. That you are supposed to be emotionally open--but not really. And that when you try to talk about this you are accused of whining or of making all that up.

 

[hijklmnop]

So you, despite what men themself say about it, don't believe that there are aspects of feminism that anger men?

Of course I do! But I don't believe that THAT anger has anything to do with a rapist's true motivations.

 

[hijklmnop]

A few possible injustices in a woman's favour in the courtroom don't amount to a hill of beans compared to the countless possible injustices in men's favour in the courtroom that have been going on for ages. That doesn't make the stated cases right (where does this conception that all women are laughing at the Bobbitt incident come from anyways?), but it doesn't mean society is now slanted overwhelmingly in women's favour either. IMO that's a misconception. Men get away with raping, abusing and murdering women all the time. You hear about it more often the other way around because it stands out from the crowd more. Again, doesn't make it okay, but a few isolated incidents that men harp on isn't actually proof of man-hating courts overall. The courts aren't perfect for anyone, but I don't believe that they are biased in women's favour.

 

[chaz345]

Of course I do! But I don't believe that THAT anger has anything to do with a rapist's true motivations.

Ok fair enough. Stepping away from the rape aspect, do you believe that men's anger over some aspects of feminism is at all warranted?

 

[JanniGirl]

What aspects? Come on -- surely you could name a few?

 

[hijklmnop]

I don't think what is being said is accurate. I think that a lot of men feel very confused about how to even have a modern relationship. It seems like you are supposed to be confident and lead--but not really. That you are supposed to be a provider--but not really. That you are supposed to be full of desire for your woman--but not really. That you are supposed to be emotionally open--but not really. And that when you try to talk about this you are accused of whining or of making all that up.

You'd have to ask individual women what they want in a relationship. We're not all the same.

For ME...I like confidence in my man, but I don't want to be "led" in the traditional way. I want to walk side-by-side through life with my h...to be an equal partner.
I want him to participate in providing for the household...as I do. It doesn't have to be HIS task alone by any means. Whatever we decide together and are both happy with is fine by me.
I like that he's attracted to me and trust he will remain that way as we grow older together as I am to him. I expect him to remain faithful to me as I do to him. I also like that he respects my desires in the bedroom...including the right to say "no" without any guilt trips, manipulation or what-have-you.
Emotionally open? Love it! Want it!

Other women on this board will say different things based on their individual preferences. Quite frankly, I'm not sure what this has to do with feminism. If you want to get to know a woman, get to know her for who she is as a PERSON. If you can do that, WOMEN won't be so confusing. We're people...as different from one another as you are from many of the men you know. I don't look to you to tell me what men want if I'm trying to connect with my h...I look to him.

 

[hijklmnop]

Ok fair enough. Stepping away from the rape aspect, do you believe that men's anger over some aspects of feminism is at all warranted?

Blatant man-hating teachings? Absolutely.

Lots of the rest of it? Nope. It depends on what we're talking about, really...

 

[Luther073082]

A few possible injustices in a woman's favour in the courtroom don't amount to a hill of beans compared to the countless possible injustices in men's favour in the courtroom that have been going on for ages. That doesn't make the stated cases right (where does this conception that all women are laughing at the Bobbitt incident come from anyways?), but it doesn't mean society is now slanted overwhelmingly in women's favour either. IMO that's a misconception. Men get away with raping, abusing and murdering women all the time. You hear about it more often the other way around because it stands out from the crowd more. Again, doesn't make it okay, but a few isolated incidents that men harp on isn't actually proof of man-hating courts overall. The courts aren't perfect for anyone, but I don't believe that they are biased in women's favour.

Can you give me an example of these injustices? Specifically where the victim is female...

License to kill: men and women, crime and punishment - Columns - disproportionately light sentences given to women | Reason | Find Articles

 

[chaz345]

Blatant man-hating teachings? Absolutely.

Lots of the rest of it? Nope. It depends on what we're talking about, really...

So why then, when the question was asked if the blatant man hating has had any effect on today's feminist thinking, was the response what it was?

 

[chaz345]

What aspects? Come on -- surely you could name a few?

They've been named a bunch of times already. Why should I believe that you'll see it if it's said one more time?

I'll be blunt. I do not believe you are interested in an actual conversation I think you are playing games.

 

[McScribe]

Interesting. When I give a piece of advice it is not seen as simply offering advice but as condescending, which was not my intention, and it is referred to again as though I had not tried to explain myself.

However when I bring up the concern that not just me personally but a lot of men I've talked to have expressed, it is dismissed casually. Double standard.

 

[JanniGirl]

The only thing I can think of that's been brought forward is that some men on this forum perceive a climate favorable to women in their church -- not sure how that's tied to feminism

 

[hijklmnop]

I didn't dismiss it casually. I addressed it in 2 full paragraphs! Apparently that was not enough for you....oh well. Plus there is a big difference between telling people what would be "wise" for them to say (when they didn't ask), telling them what they should and should not bring up in a conversation (when they didn't ask) and addressing someone's admitted confusion and associated questions. Unasked for "advice"/bossing around comes across as patronizing.

 

[McScribe]

Actually it was not good enough, since I was speaking about men collectively and you addressed it to me personally, and missed the point entirely. And the advice was not intended for you personally but for feminists generally.