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Spin off thread: those feelings and 2nd wave feminism

Discussion in 'Married Couples' started by Athene, Dec 7, 2011.

  1. Tannic

    Tannic Well-Known Member

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    So your logic is every man benefits from raping women in some profound way. (takes a breath) Wow.... How in the world did you come to exactly agreeing with that reasoning IF you don't mind me asking.
     
  2. chaz345

    chaz345 Well-Known Member

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    Except that it already has been, for at least a couple of decades now.
     
  3. JanniGirl

    JanniGirl Well-Known Member

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    .... or so you say ....


    then why all the outrage at patriarchy being "smashed"?
     
  4. McScribe

    McScribe Me

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    It's not outrage at patriarchy being smashed. It's outrage at the attitudes towards men that people like MacKinnon insist upon.
     
  5. chaz345

    chaz345 Well-Known Member

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    Because at the current time smashing something that no longer exists takes the form of taking things that are already undeniably slanted in the favor of women and pushing for them to be even more imbalanced.
     
  6. JanniGirl

    JanniGirl Well-Known Member

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    and those would be?
     
  7. chaz345

    chaz345 Well-Known Member

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    Things that have been mentioned dozens if not hundreds of times. If you were interested you would have seen them already.

    1) Family court system
    2)College admissions that currently favor women 60/40 and that are called almost having acheived equality by feminists.


    I'll not bother to list more since you've seen these to already many times and refuse to acknoledge them.
     
  8. JanniGirl

    JanniGirl Well-Known Member

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    1) Family Court System -- much more likely to favor the husband in now than in previous generations when the wife pretty much 100% of the time got the kids if she wanted them.
    2) The fact that the split is 60/40 could be for any number of reasons ... though, I think its kind of the rebound effect, where you get more women into college because its more of a new-found freedom. Maybe for men, its just old news?
     
  9. Athene

    Athene Grammatically incorrect Supporter

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    Would a second class citizen need to fulfill all the above criteria, or would a couple do? Women make up the poorest in society, as a group we are limited in the jobs we can do because of being lumped with primary child care responsibility, we are discriminated against if we are of child bearing age, we are massively over represented as part-time low paid workers, and massively under-represented amongst those sitting in board-rooms. As a group, women are regularly targeted for sexual harassment and rape. Violence is regularly committed against women because they are women.
     
  10. Athene

    Athene Grammatically incorrect Supporter

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    Do the admissions reflect the application numbers? I.E, are applications made up of 60% women?
     
  11. McScribe

    McScribe Me

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    If you wanted to start a business, buy a home, join a church, take out a loan, vote for a preferred candidate, drive a car, get paid the same wage as someone else doing the same job, would these things happen? Absolutely. I've never worked for a company where someone did not get paid according to title.

    How many women are out there saying they wanted to have a board room position but got passed over many times? And if they exist, why were they passed over?

    Women are citizens, who face challenges within their demographic as others do. Same with certain ethnicities. This doesn't mean it's bigotry or unfairness per se.
     
  12. MessianicMommy

    MessianicMommy Guest

    +0
    Not sure if you've been following the news in Europe as of late, but the biggest news is increasing the quota of women in the boardroom, as well as (in Germany at least) increasing the positions and ages of children that Kindergartens will take so that women can return to work if they need to or wish to, sooner than the 1 year maternity leave that is available. [see here and here ] There is also a push to have more male teachers and helpers in the kindertagesstäte, [see here]

    There are places outside of the West (Europe, North, Central and South America) that do prohibit women to do the things you mention, and in some cultures within the West, there are cultural prohibitions of women doing those things though it is legal through the government to do so. I can think of right off hand a few Christian groups, as well as some Roma and Muslim groups that are that way.

    The boardroom, and some jobs are still seen as "men's clubs" in some areas. One that I can readily think of (because it is what a friend does, and what DH helped a friend break into from the "Scener" groups) is that of the Techno DJ. It is very rare even now, 10 years after DH stopped being in "The Scene" for there to be girls and women present. When there are, they are allowed free or reduced entry, because it is seen as a "fluke". Girls/Women have to jockey hard for the positions they do get to work, and have to be careful how they dress (Style, fashion) so that they are not pigeon-holed or not given the opportunity of being hired. I remember hearing about "DJ Granny" hitting the big time finally after some clubs gave her a chance.

    There are many articles on there being new quotas in jobs, not by virtue of the women being female, but because women are often passed over for certain jobs on the basis they are female, even if the work has been put in. That old adage of the 50s-80s (70s in some places) like in the movie "Down with Love" where the woman in the board room is the one pouring the tea and coffee is a stark reality in some of these places.

    There isn't always opportunity to fight it either, because of how it puts bad marks on your being able to be hired elsewhere.

    From only one article (due to the lateness of the hour) the statistics of larger companies are as follows:

    Cameron says more women in the boardroom would help curb greed | Money | The Guardian

    Women in business: Still lonely at the top | The Economist

    Spiegel Online International


    I'm sure if we're talking an individual who keeps their head down and does their work - sure they deserve equal treatment. But for a person that is forever harping on about entitlement - bleh.. No one is entitled to anything other than birth, life, love and death and taxes..

    Fact is, not much has changed here in jobs since the 50s Wirtschaftwunder. Men came back to regular jobs, women were working as breadwinners due to the massive loss of life, but women as a general rule still make less even in jobs that aren't "Women's work".

    Then you have the factor that people insist you set aside personal life and work for education, and once you have certain jobs, to set aside personal life until it's in order, pursue further education to get your alphabet soup, and it's no wonder that neither gender are pro having multiple (if any) children. There's just no time.

    I do not agree with the quota. I find it discriminatory on many terms, though I feel there should be more done for those who need to work. With the large push here for higher and higher education and a full alphabet soup after your name (not joking here, it really is like that here!), and not working while you're managing your education ... something needs to be done to assist everyone who is qualified, not just women. There should be a mentality that whomever is qualified and put in the most work and has the gracious attitude is the one hired and promoted - but it just doesn't work that way often times.

    I agree there are not many women studying physics and other higher mathematically inclined jobs at the moment (though the number is increasing), fact is that in job avenues such as my husband's (Computer programmer), the only woman you'll find in the office is a secretary.

    Athene and I aren't just blowing hot air here. There's some real issues going on in some places that do deserve attention.

    I, very personally, do not wish to work outside the home at this time. I like staying at home with the kids. :)

    As far as the kindergarten goals go here, it will create more jobs, but it is a near impossible goal to make. Our current kita has 100 students every year, divided by 4 classrooms with 4 teachers (2 for one half, 2 for the other half) of the 8 or so hours they're open any given day. IF they are to meet the goals, they have to be able to provide for babies as young as 3 months old, up to 3 years, including potty training, and other things that the teachers generally do not do - but allow for parents to teach. I've heard the director complain a number of times about it. She said if this happens, she will have to set an age limit for the kita, because anything under age 3 is too difficult to manage in an integrated setting of 20 children per class of varied ages. (3-6)

    I totally see her point. A daycare is better suited than a Kindergarten. . . except there really isn't such a thing here.

    ...I digress...
     
  13. Tannic

    Tannic Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like only thing some women care about is 'public' appearance or how they are viewed among their peers.
     
  14. hijklmnop

    hijklmnop Guest

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    How did that statement have anything at all to do with Athene's quoted post, Tannic???
     
  15. Tannic

    Tannic Well-Known Member

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    Well the post sums up 'how some women are viewed in society' which is public appearance. And very political, if some women feel like that why don't they just go to their government and fight 'them' about it.
     
  16. hijklmnop

    hijklmnop Guest

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    I thought it summed up how women are treated in society. And the fight's been going on for a good long time now.
     
  17. Tannic

    Tannic Well-Known Member

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    Either way (doesn't matter)... Same attitude as the revolutionary war. If men are so bad... why don't they just segregate themselves or just walk the streets with banner signs "We, the women of (your country)' and other stuff.
     
  18. MessianicMommy

    MessianicMommy Guest

    +0
    If that's so, I wonder why I went out this morning in PJs and slacks to deliver my son to kindergarten.. :D :p

    I'm not really one that wants to impress people or put on some kind of face in public I don't have in private. Sure I want the house clean when people come over and the table to be set nicely, but what person doesn't? I don't keep up with the Joneses.


    It's not always so easy. I've watched how "Occupy" has done here in Germany and it barely even hit the press at all. People protesting at both American embassies and that's it. As far as other protests, it'd have to go before each state government, and then all the way to Berlin. Not everyone has a car, and who can afford that kind of trip plus hotel stay just to protest while there's work to be done?
    Instead, people try to raise awareness and hope that someone who does have time and money on their hands will take up the cause.

    I've seen our ""Champion"" here, MP Ursula von der Leyen, and honestly I can't identify with her. I think about the only thing we have agreed on is the maternity leave schemes she's come up with that now work so beautifully.

    I don't have a vote, unless I give up my citizenship. I have no plans at this time to do so.

    :confused:

    I don't believe men are "so bad". I believe most the women here do not either. However, some of our societies do need a little push in the right direction. :sorry:

    There's no reason to go to the mattresses over it... or to war for that matter.
     
  19. Tannic

    Tannic Well-Known Member

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    .edited for the my own insanity.
     
  20. Athene

    Athene Grammatically incorrect Supporter

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    There seem to be some words missing in this sentence.

    Also, what on earth are you going on about?

    ETA, I've read your further posts and I still have no idea.
     
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