Speaking in Tongues - Are we all wrong?

[Original Happy Camper]

it builds up the one speaking

There in lies the problem with it. "it builds up the one speaking" not Jesus Christ
Revelation 14:7
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come:

 

[Saint Steven]

What a twisting of the truth you do weave. The church IS INDIVIDUAL BELIEVERS. And the "Greater gifts" must be understood in the context of the scripture, and not the context of an "ungifted" experience.

The verse you quoted, but never posted, in context;

1CO 12:28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts/charisma of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts/charisma.

The "greater gifts" were the Charisma gifts. The gift of apostles, prophets, teachers are not "charisma" gifts they are "doma" gifts.

EPH 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts/doma unto men.........11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

And you can desire to be an apostle, prophet etc. all you want, to no avail. Those are talent gifts one is born with even as Jeremiah was appointed as a prophet in the womb. They come as callings of God and not cryings of the "ungifted".

So it is up to YOU to become a CHARISMA gifted believer, not God. It will take faith and not fear to receive. And it will also take an "earnest desire". Not a "Well if this gift is real, God then I'll accept it." Too many Christians have sought the higher gifts with such a religious platitude of a request. That is why they are "UNGIFTED" still. When scripture says "Do all have charisma gifts", of course scripture knows the answer is NO. Not because of God, but because of false teaching and lack of faith.

Thanks for your post. I heartily agree.

This might be a good point to insert some discussion about the general misunderstanding about the "possession" of "gifts" and the "not my gift" attitude.

Churches tend to have these dreadful classes about "finding" your gift. Which begins with a personal natural abilities questionnaire to identify your natural "God-given" abilities. (groan)

While this may reveal some useful insights in the process, it negates the idea that spiritual gifts are NOT natural abilities, but rather supernatural abilities.

The other problem is with a closed-case approach to gifts. A person takes the class, they "identify" their gift, then they try to find a ministry slot that could use their natural "God-given" abilities. They posses this ability as if it were a spiritual gift, and fail to seek any further. When offered a ministry in another area, they will likely say, "That's not my gift.", rather than listen to what the Spirit may be saying.

I want to hear from others on this, but I have experienced temporary giftings that I have not used since. I was open to God using me however he chose to, and to receive gifts for temporary situations. This was confusing to me at first. I thought God was opening up an area of ministry for me to continue in. An open door for me to walk through into a deeper ministry life. But nothing more happened in that area. Not to say that it couldn't, but it did not continue at that time.

The lesson for me, was to always be open to whatever the Spirit wants to do at the moment. And to not be possessive about the gifts to the point of either exclusion. or continued use.

Curious to hear what you and others have learned and experienced in this area.

 

[Hillsage]

The gifts the verse is referring to are the gifts listed in the immediately preceding verses - apostles, prophets, teachers, miracles, healing, helps, administration, and tongues. It lists them in order of importance "first apostles, second prophets, third teachers...", with tongues right at the end of the list. Paul then tells the Corinthians to "eagerly desire the greater gifts."

And my fully ‘backed by scripture’ response is countered with ‘your opinion’. I don’t expect those here ‘who are actually seeking the truth’ will be surprised that I don’t fold from my stated POV.

 

[swordsman1]

And my fully ‘backed by scripture’ response is countered with ‘your opinion’.

The scripture you quoted actually supports my view, not yours, as I demonstrated.

I don’t expect those here ‘who are actually seeking the truth’ will be surprised that I don’t fold from my stated POV.

Thats ok. I too don't expect you to fold from your stated views. It is difficult for those who have their preconceived suppositions ingrained into them to actually change their minds, even when confronted with the weight of biblical evidence to the contrary.

 

[Dan the deacon]

And my fully ‘backed by scripture’ response is countered with ‘your opinion’. I don’t expect those here ‘who are actually seeking the truth’ will be surprised that I don’t fold from my stated POV.

So you hold onto your view despite what scripture says clearly?

 

[Hillsage]

There in lies the problem with it. "it builds up the one speaking" not Jesus Christ
Revelation 14:7
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come:

Uhh, we kind of think that 'obtaining' and 'walking' in the promises of God does glorify Him. Does your church teach differently?

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Uhh, we kind of think that 'obtaining' and 'walking' in the promises of God does glorify Him. Does your church teach differently?

Uhh, we kind of think that 'obtaining' and 'walking' in the promises of God does glorify Him. Does your church teach differently?

Nice deflection from the post you quoted. Please address the comment that my statements refereed to.

 

[Hillsage]

Thanks for your post. I heartily agree.

This might be a good point to insert some discussion about the general misunderstanding about the "possession" of "gifts" and the "not my gift" attitude.

Churches tend to have these dreadful classes about "finding" your gift. Which begins with a personal natural abilities questionnaire to identify your natural "God-given" abilities. (groan)

While this may reveal some useful insights in the process, it negates the idea that spiritual gifts are NOT natural abilities, but rather supernatural abilities.

The other problem is with a closed-case approach to gifts. A person takes the class, they "identify" their gift, then they try to find a ministry slot that could use their natural "God-given" abilities. They posses this ability as if it were a spiritual gift, and fail to seek any further. When offered a ministry in another area, they will likely say, "That's not my gift.", rather than listen to what the Spirit may be saying.

I want to hear from others on this, but I have experienced temporary giftings that I have not used since. I was open to God using me however he chose to, and to receive gifts for temporary situations. This was confusing to me at first. I thought God was opening up an area of ministry for me to continue in. An open door for me to walk through into a deeper ministry life. But nothing more happened in that area. Not to say that it couldn't, but it did not continue at that time.

The lesson for me, was to always be open to whatever the Spirit wants to do at the moment. And to not be possessive about the gifts to the point of either exclusion. or continued use.

Curious to hear what you and others have learned and experienced in this area.

Long ago I began questioning those soulish questioned psychological tests which were supposed to tell you your "spiritual" gift. And then they didn't even know that having the 'church authority' of being an apostle, prophet teacher etc. wasn't a 'spiritual gift' to begin with. Scripture plainly says (to the "gifted" charismatic church of Corinth, an important point) "You may all prophesy". That doesn't mean 'you are all prophets'. Ignorance like that is one of the reasons that the Pentecostal/Charismatic movements have never brought the church to spiritual maturity yet. You may also 'all teach' (children, neighbors, bible studies), but that doesn't mean you're gifted to speak/write books with 'anointed and appointed authority of a teacher' at the 'corporate church' level.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Uhh, we kind of think

"kind of" either you believe it or you don't or are you lukewarm on it.

 

[Dan the deacon]

What a twisting of the truth you do weave. The church IS INDIVIDUAL BELIEVERS. And the "Greater gifts" must be understood in the context of the scripture, and not the context of an "ungifted" experience.

The verse you quoted, but never posted, in context;

1CO 12:28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts/charisma of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts/charisma.

The "greater gifts" were the Charisma gifts. The gift of apostles, prophets, teachers are not "charisma" gifts they are "doma" gifts.

EPH 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts/doma unto men.........11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

And you can desire to be an apostle, prophet etc. all you want, to no avail. Those are talent gifts one is born with even as Jeremiah was appointed as a prophet in the womb. They come as callings of God and not cryings of the "ungifted".

So it is up to YOU to become a CHARISMA gifted believer, not God. It will take faith and not fear to receive. And it will also take an "earnest desire". Not a "Well if this gift is real, God then I'll accept it." Too many Christians have sought the higher gifts with such a religious platitude of a request. That is why they are "UNGIFTED" still. When scripture says "Do all have charisma gifts", of course scripture knows the answer is NO. Not because of God, but because of false teaching and lack of faith.

Untrue. The Church is the body of Christ. Individuals may make up the Church but alone they are no such thing. No.man as an individual is the Church.

What a twisting of the truth you do weave. The church IS INDIVIDUAL BELIEVERS. And the "Greater gifts" must be understood in the context of the scripture, and not the context of an "ungifted" experience.

The verse you quoted, but never posted, in context;

1CO 12:28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts/charisma of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts/charisma.

The "greater gifts" were the Charisma gifts. The gift of apostles, prophets, teachers are not "charisma" gifts they are "doma" gifts.

EPH 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts/doma unto men.........11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

And you can desire to be an apostle, prophet etc. all you want, to no avail. Those are talent gifts one is born with even as Jeremiah was appointed as a prophet in the womb. They come as callings of God and not cryings of the "ungifted".

So it is up to YOU to become a CHARISMA gifted believer, not God. It will take faith and not fear to receive. And it will also take an "earnest desire". Not a "Well if this gift is real, God then I'll accept it." Too many Christians have sought the higher gifts with such a religious platitude of a request. That is why they are "UNGIFTED" still. When scripture says "Do all have charisma gifts", of course scripture knows the answer is NO. Not because of God, but because of false teaching and lack of faith.

The Church is not individual believers it is believers being of ONE belief. The very word individuals is contrary to what the Church is. You are not the Church and neither am I but those who believe as one are.

 

[Hillsage]

The scripture you quoted actually supports my view, not yours, as I demonstrated.

Don't give up your day job.

Thats ok. I too don't expect you to fold from your stated views. It is difficult for those who have their preconceived suppositions ingrained into them to actually change their minds, even when confronted with the weight of biblical evidence to the contrary.

The part I bolded above....fits every one of us here who did exactly that, we gave up our "ungifted" belief system and become 'gifted'. So while your 'logic' above is great, your 'spiritual' application falls short. But that is no surprise to 'some' of us here.

 

[swordsman1]

The part I bolded above....fits every one of us here who did exactly that, to give up our "ungifted" belief system and become 'gifted'.

Becoming gifted? You mean being duped by your teachers, seeing as the charismatic gifts you claim to have do not match the biblical descriptions of those gifts.

 

[Hillsage]

Nice deflection from the post you quoted. Please address the comment that my statements refereed to.

My "kinda think" was a 'tongue in cheek' direct answer to you AND 'whatever point' you actually think your post had to begin with. Your post, on the other hand, absolutely did not respond to my direct question at all. Hmmm. I'll just have to ASSUME your church does teach differently and you bought that rather than the "gifted" perspective on the things some of us speak of in this thread.

 

[Hillsage]

Becoming gifted? You mean being duped by your teachers, seeing as the charismatic gifts you claim to have do match the biblical descriptions of those gifts.

Have you so soon forgotten? No, I mean the question you never, never, never, answer every time I ask it. There were three groups spoken of in the letter to Corinth; The "whole charismatic church" of Corinth, those who are "ungifted" and those who are "unbelievers". And your response as to WHICH ONE of those THREE groups defines YOU is?

1CO 14:23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?

 

[Original Happy Camper]

ASSUME

WE believe in the gifts but not how you interpret some of them

 

[Hillsage]

WE believe in the gifts but not how you interpret some of them

Exactly. And this thread is about refuting what we believe and have supported with scripture, and not just you or your church's opinions. So welcome. Now if you have a sword, sharpen it and join in.

First, I'll start with the same question for you that I just asked Swordsman. Which group are you in?

 

[Marvin Knox]

As I already said, Paul told the Corinthian church to desire certain spiritual gifts, not the individual beleiver.

What a silly distinction.

Besides that - God made it a point to show us in verses 28-31 that the context in which we are told to desire certain gifts is in the "individual" context. Did you miss that part? or just ignore it

it is folly to pray for a particular gift simply because we fancy having it.

Where are you getting this "simply because we fancy having it" bologna?

No one here has said any such thing.

It is wrong for an ear to want to be an eye:

Which ear posting on this thread has said they wish to be an eye?

The gifts the verse is referring to are the gifts listed in the immediately preceding verses - apostles, prophets, teachers, miracles, healing, helps, administration, and tongues. It lists them in order of importance "first apostles, second prophets, third teachers...", with tongues right at the end of the list. Paul then tells the Corinthians to "eagerly desire the greater gifts."

I've pretty much gone through the entire thread now and I'll be darned if I see anyone who says they don't desire the greater gifts as well as or more than tongues.

Can you supply a quote from someone's post for us?

There in lies the problem with it. "it builds up the one speaking" not Jesus Christ

Have you not read and do you not realize that we are the body of Christ?

"kind of" either you believe it or you don't or are you lukewarm on it.

What a silly argumentative question.

Nice deflection from the post you quoted. Please address the comment that my statements refereed to.

He did - very directly and concisely.

 

[swordsman1]

Have you so soon forgotten? No, I mean the question you never, never, never, answer every time I ask it. There were three groups spoken of in the letter to Corinth; The "whole charismatic church" of Corinth, those who are "ungifted" and those who are "unbelievers". And your response as to WHICH ONE of those THREE groups defines YOU is?

1CO 14:23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?

I reason I ignore your repeated silly question is because you are trying to engineer an off-topic putdown. But seeing as we are here...

The church in Corinth had spiritual gifts which are no longer active today. Those who have been told they have them today I'm afraid have been duped by their teachers. The gifts claimed today do not match the biblical descriptions.

The BDAG Lexicon entry for ἰδιώτης (idiotes) translated as 'ungifted' in the NASB is:

one who is not knowledgeable about some particular group’s experience, one not in the know, outsider. In 1 Cor 14:23f ἰδιῶται and ἄπιστοι together form a contrast to the Christian congregation. ​

I am well versed on the things of the Spirit and know exactly what the gift of tongues is, as the Bible gives us a thorough description of the gift. The equivalent of idiotes today then would be people who are ignorant of that description or willfully dismiss it and come up with a definition of their own that is alien to scripture.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Mr. swordsman1 has tried to make the case that when tongues are spoken they are always known languages in the scriptures.

He has failed in providing proof for that position. But I will give him credit for trying head on to make his case.

Why can't people who believe tongues are being done wrong - point to real life examples of that case?

For instance - I believe that the common practice in charismatic groups to speak in tongues without an interpreter is wrong.

I also believe that taking new believers into a back room and coaching them to say a couple of strange words and telling them they are now "Spirit filled" is wrong.

I am a firm believer in praying in tongues and do so myself. I also believe that the scriptures tell us pretty clearly that we can receive words from the Lord in a tongue.

None the less I cringe when television preachers and even members of my own family mumble something like "shanda rotie - tie my bow tie" over and over again and claim that they are praying in tongues and that they are therefore baptized in the Holy Spirit and filled with the Spirit.

By all means - whether you speak in tongues yourself or not - make the case for your objections. Lay it right out there.

It may fall short of proving your position, as in the case of swordsman1 and the always know languages position, or it may prove to be a solid point.

But do not "despise" the speaking of tongues as many of you are doing.

 

[Saint Steven]

…
The church in Corinth had spiritual gifts which are no longer active today. Those who have been told they have them today I'm afraid have been duped by their teachers. The gifts claimed today do not match the biblical descriptions. …

Yup, Cessationist doctrine. I figured as much.