Speaking in Tongues - Are we all wrong?

[swordsman1]

But you can't really know that for sure, because when a person is exercising faith that when they have asked for the gift of tongues, they would have received the genuine article. It goes along with the Scripture, "If God's children ask for bread, would God give them a stone...etc.?"

A person doesn't get a spiritual gift by asking. They are given only as the Spirit sovereignly determines:

1 Cor 12:11 "But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills."​

There is no asking or 'faith' involved. Did the disciples at Pentecost or Cornelius' household or John's disciples ask for tongues and muster up sufficient faith? The passage about stones and bread is not referring to spiritual gifts, but to the Holy Spirit himself.

So, if a person, believing that 1 Corinthians 14 is the accurate teaching concerning tongues and that God will give the ability upon request, and he makes that request in faith and is able to speak a language he has never learned, who is to say that he has not received the genuine article?

Because if they believe it is a non-human language, it contradicts the only description of tongues found in scripture (Acts 2). Nowhere does it say tongues is a non-human languages. And if they believe it is a human language it contradicts the conclusions of every linguist that has studied the phenomenon and found beyond doubt to be fundamentally not a language.

 

[swordsman1]

You can emphasize the syntax that way, for sure. But as one who does speak in tongues, I can tell you that you are wrong. Do you speak in tongues? I doubt it.

The plain reading of the text is that the disciples spoke in foreign languages. No amount of subjective experience will alter that, despite the many attempts to shoehorn today's glossolalia into the text.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So we are expected to dismiss the findings of the linguistic experts who have studied hundreds of samples of modern glossolalia, and on the basis of unsubstantiated pentecostal rumours conclude that today's tongues are real human languages? We cannot cross-examine these witnesses or examine any supporting evidence. We must simply accept their dubious stories as being undeniable truth. There is a reason such unsubstantiated stories are never accepted as evidence by courts. It is hearsay.

hearsay
noun
1. Unverified information heard or received from another; rumor.

2. Law Evidence that is not within the personal knowledge of a witness, such as testimony regarding statements made by someone other than the witness, and that therefore may be inadmissible to establish the truth of a particular contention because the accuracy of the evidence cannot be verified through cross-examination.​

It's funny how these tall Pentecostal stories are never verified by independent experts and documented in any academic journals.

The friend who reported it to me is a Presbyterian Scot. He does not subscribe to modern Pentecostalism. He is very exact in his reporting and descriptions. Absolute strictness of doctrine doesn't come near to his comparison between true and false doctrine! He does not accept hearsay. He would have some very choice words to say to you if you were calling him a liar or saying he is mistaken. He would put a new part in your hair!

 

[swordsman1]

The friend who reported it to me is a Presbyterian Scot. He does not subscribe to modern Pentecostalism. He is very exact in his reporting and descriptions. Absolute strictness of doctrine doesn't come near to his comparison between true and false doctrine! He does not accept hearsay. He would have some very choice words to say to you if you were calling him a liar or saying he is mistaken. He would put a new part in your hair!

No matter who told you the story it is still hearsay.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

A person doesn't get a spiritual gift by asking. They are given only as the Spirit sovereignly determines:

1 Cor 12:11 "But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills."​

There is no asking or 'faith' involved. Did the disciples at Pentecost or Cornelius' household or John's disciples ask for tongues and muster up sufficient faith? The passage about stones and bread is not referring to spiritual gifts, but to the Holy Spirit himself.




Because if they believe it is a non-human language, it contradicts the only description of tongues found in scripture (Acts 2). Nowhere does it say tongues is a non-human languages. And if they believe it is a human language it contradicts the conclusions of every linguist that has studied the phenomenon and found beyond doubt to be fundamentally not a language.

Paul says, "Pursue love and desire spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy." Also, "Everything by prayer and supplication make your requests known to God." I guess that includes spiritual gifts.

Oh well, I guess you haven't got it, because as James says, "You ask not." I guess the alternative is to sit on the back pew and wait for the Rapture! (Unless you are posttrib!)

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

No matter who told you the story it is still hearsay.

Even the Bible itself could be hearsay, because, as you said, we cannot go and cross examine the witnesses to the ministry of Jesus or the events in the Early Church. In fact, using your method of verification, none of us could verify that we are actually born again, because every promise related to it cannot be verified by cross examining the people who reported that God had made those promises.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The plain reading of the text is that the disciples spoke in foreign languages. No amount of subjective experience will alter that, despite the many attempts to shoehorn today's glossolalia into the text.

There are differences of opinion about whether they spoke in foreign languages or that the hearers heard their own languages. Then again, this could all be hearsay, because we don't have Luke around to cross-examine to establish what really happened - if he was actually there at the time. If the event was reported to him, then one could say that the report he received was hearsay. How do we know? If we apply your method of verification, then it could very well have been hearsay. The witnesses whom he spoke with are no longer around, so how do we know that their report of the events of the Day of Pentecost were accurate?

That might mean that the whole of Luke's Gospel and the Book of Acts is based on hearsay, because we can't verify it according to your method. Most professors of religious studies in our universities maintain that Jesus was not a historical figure, and that the virgin birth never happened, and there was no Resurrection. Who's to say whether they were right or wrong?

You have to be consistent. Either it was all true, or all myth and hearsay. What is the difference between Matthew, Mark, Luke or John reporting the life of Jesus, and my friend who reported that Africans spoke in tongues with a clear Oxford accent? None of what they reported can be accurately verified today, because the reporters and witnesses are not here to be cross examined - as you stated quite correctly.

 

[swordsman1]

Paul says, "Pursue love and desire spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy." Also, "Everything by prayer and supplication make your requests known to God." I guess that includes spiritual gifts.

Paul was addressing the Corinthian church as a whole - it is they who are to desire the gifts in their church, not for the individual believer to seek whatever gift they fancy.

Phil 4:6 does not say we can pray for everything we desire. It says "in everything" ie in every situation.

"Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God." (NASB)

"Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God." (NIV)​

 

[swordsman1]

Even the Bible itself could be hearsay, because, as you said, we cannot go and cross examine the witnesses to the ministry of Jesus or the events in the Early Church. In fact, using your method of verification, none of us could verify that we are actually born again, because every promise related to it cannot be verified by cross examining the people who reported that God had made those promises.

No, scripture is the inerrant, infallible word of God.

 

[Hillsage]

No, scripture is the inerrant, infallible word of God.

And "ungifted" means WHAT in the bible to YOU personally?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So your subjective experience trumps scripture?



There is no difference in the tongues in either of those lists (1 Cor 12:8-10 and 1 Cor 12:28). They are both referred to as "various kinds of tongues".

My experience is based on the Scripture telling me that the gift of tongues is available to me and the instructions on how to use it. It is interesting that in 1 Corinthians 12, various types of tongues are mentioned in the nine gifts and also in the list of ministry functions. This tells me that there is a gift of tongues and a ministry of tongues. How do you explain that?

How do you explain that the prophecy Peter quoted on the Day of Pentecost involved the promise of the Spirit being poured out on them, their children and those afar off? What Peter is essentially saying is that the Spirit is being poured out on those present, their children (the second generation after the first Apostles) and those who are far off (implying those far off into the future as well as those in far away lands - where the Apostles may never go). Joel's prophecy was given 800 years before, and Peter said that the prophecy was being fulfilled right then (A.D. 33).

That destroys the notion that the gifts only existed in the time of the Apostles and that the Apostles were the only ones to pass them on, because the outpouring of the Spirit along with His gifts and ministries are promises, through Joel's prophecy, to all people, not just the Apostles, and their children. And because the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, and God does not lie, it shows to me quite clearly that it has never been God to withdraw the gifts but the gifts faded out in the first centuries of the Church for other reasons, and that to say that God withdrew them for any reason is to say that God's promises are not true and valid.

 

[AlexDTX]

The plain reading of the text is that the disciples spoke in foreign languages. No amount of subjective experience will alter that, despite the many attempts to shoehorn today's glossolalia into the text.

Your natural view of the text makes that plain to you, but your view is not spiritual. There is no point speaking further on the matter because you can't describe color to someone who can only see black and white.

 

[Marvin Knox]

A person doesn't get a spiritual gift by asking. They are given only as the Spirit sovereignly determines:

1 Cor 12:11 "But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills."

I don't know what Bible you are reading.

You obviously look at all scriptures related to tongues through "swordsman1" colored glasses.

We are most certainly told to earnestly desire certain gifts and we are also told to ask for our heart's desire with faith and without doubting.

By the way - are you really not able to see that the sovereign will of God is to answer the prayers of His children - and this even after God has told us in direct words that it is?

 

[swordsman1]

My experience is based on the Scripture telling me that the gift of tongues is available to me and the instructions on how to use it. It is interesting that in 1 Corinthians 12, various types of tongues are mentioned in the nine gifts and also in the list of ministry functions. This tells me that there is a gift of tongues and a ministry of tongues. How do you explain that?

How do you explain that the prophecy Peter quoted on the Day of Pentecost involved the promise of the Spirit being poured out on them, their children and those afar off? What Peter is essentially saying is that the Spirit is being poured out on those present, their children (the second generation after the first Apostles) and those who are far off (implying those far off into the future as well as those in far away lands - where the Apostles may never go). Joel's prophecy was given 800 years before, and Peter said that the prophecy was being fulfilled right then (A.D. 33).

That destroys the notion that the gifts only existed in the time of the Apostles and that the Apostles were the only ones to pass them on, because the outpouring of the Spirit along with His gifts and ministries are promises, through Joel's prophecy, to all people, not just the Apostles, and their children. And because the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, and God does not lie, it shows to me quite clearly that it has never been God to withdraw the gifts but the gifts faded out in the first centuries of the Church for other reasons, and that to say that God withdrew them for any reason is to say that God's promises are not true and valid.

I would say that is reading into scripture something that isn't there. The various kinds of tongues (languages) mentioned in 1 Cor 12 are the various languages of the world. The Greek word for 'various kinds' is genos (BDAG Lexicon: entities united by common traits, class, kind). It is the same word that appears in 1 Cor 14:10:

1 Cor 14:10 "There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of languages in the world, and no kind is without meaning."​

The notion of 2 different kinds of tongues, a gift and a ministry, is unsupported by scripture. The idea of tongues being practiced in private completely contradicts the stated purpose of spiritual gifts:

1 Cor 12:7 "Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good."
1 Peter 4:10 "Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others,"​

The rest of your post seems to be going off on an unrelated tangent, with most of what you say I actually agree with (I have never claimed the miraculous gifts could only be imparted by an Apostle).

 

[swordsman1]

Your natural view of the text makes that plain to you, but your view is not spiritual. There is no point speaking further on the matter because you can't describe color to someone who can only see black and white.

My view is exegesis - reading what the text actually says. Not eisogesis - reading our own preconceived ideas into the text. We must "correctly handle the word of truth" (2 Tim 2:15).

 

[swordsman1]

I don't know what Bible you are reading.

You obviously look at all scriptures related to tongues through "swordsman1" colored glasses.

We are most certainly told to earnestly desire certain gifts and we are also told to ask for our heart's desire with faith and without doubting.

By the way - are you really not able to see that the sovereign will of God is to answer the prayers of His children - and this even after God has told us in direct words that it is?

As I already said, Paul told the Corinthian church to desire certain spiritual gifts, not the individual beleiver. And the gifts the Corinthians were to desire for their church were the greater gifts such as prophecy and teaching, not the least of the gifts - tongues.

If we are told that it is the Holy Spirit who sovereignly determines who gets what gift, then it is folly to pray for a particular gift simply because we fancy having it. (Not that today's 'tongues' is the true NT gift of tongues). It is wrong for an ear to want to be an eye:

1 Cor 12:16-20 And if the ear says, “Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired. If they were all one member, where would the body be? But now there are many members, but one body."​

 

[Dan the deacon]

Paul says, "Pursue love and desire spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy." Also, "Everything by prayer and supplication make your requests known to God." I guess that includes spiritual gifts.

Oh well, I guess you haven't got it, because as James says, "You ask not." I guess the alternative is to sit on the back pew and wait for the Rapture! (Unless you are posttrib!)

True that Paul said desire the gifts. Bit that does not negate tje verse saying God gives gifts to who He wills. Our will is not the determining factor. Tongues are not nor have they ever been speaking gibberish. They (tongues) are real language. Not mumbo jumbo as is spoken in Pentecostal services. That is simple excitement and folks trying to show how spiritual they are.

 

[tulipbee]

On the description page at Amazon <staff edited out the Amazon link> there is a book called the Doctrine And Teaching Of Speaking With Tongues, that suggest we are all wrong when it comes to speaking in tongues: that tongues is neither a language to aid the first disciple in the spreading of the gospel nor is it gibberish! Because they say that tongues is neither a language nor gibberish they draw the sword against themselves on both sides of the issue.

Now I can see how tongues can be proven not to be an unknown gibberish prayer language, but to prove that tongues is not a real language is another thing; which is close to impossible, I suppose, for those who believe tongues to be a language - only because they are so sure it is a language!

However if indeed it can be proven that neither of these teachings are true and that we are all wrong this would be a great turning point in the Christian world; and much need, I suppose, to end our endless debates; but especially for the weaker brethren and those searching for this truth that they should no longer be tossed to and fro from both sides of the issue.

Has anyone heard of this book that is supposed to show all that we are wrong or read of the great claims it makes on the description page on Amazon! Or is it possible that we are all wrong and have overlooked that one key element! And what about our teachers, what are they going to do! Would those teaching and defending their teaching for ten, twenty or even forty years put away their beliefs for the sake of truth, if indeed it turns out we are all wrong! Or is the Christian world even ready for this new teaching - if it can be called a new!

I have an electronic device that speaks in tongues for me.

 

[Dan the deacon]

My experience is based on the Scripture telling me that the gift of tongues is available to me and the instructions on how to use it. It is interesting that in 1 Corinthians 12, various types of tongues are mentioned in the nine gifts and also in the list of ministry functions. This tells me that there is a gift of tongues and a ministry of tongues. How do you explain that?

How do you explain that the prophecy Peter quoted on the Day of Pentecost involved the promise of the Spirit being poured out on them, their children and those afar off? What Peter is essentially saying is that the Spirit is being poured out on those present, their children (the second generation after the first Apostles) and those who are far off (implying those far off into the future as well as those in far away lands - where the Apostles may never go). Joel's prophecy was given 800 years before, and Peter said that the prophecy was being fulfilled right then (A.D. 33).

That destroys the notion that the gifts only existed in the time of the Apostles and that the Apostles were the only ones to pass them on, because the outpouring of the Spirit along with His gifts and ministries are promises, through Joel's prophecy, to all people, not just the Apostles, and their children. And because the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, and God does not lie, it shows to me quite clearly that it has never been God to withdraw the gifts but the gifts faded out in the first centuries of the Church for other reasons, and that to say that God withdrew them for any reason is to say that God's promises are not true and valid.

I agree that spiritual gifts are relevant today. I do not agree that repeating the same non-word four times can be translated into eight words differing in sound. It is often faked today. I also have to wonder why so many seem to desire the least important gift instead of more useful gifts.

 

[Hillsage]

As I already said, Paul told the Corinthian church to desire certain spiritual gifts, not the individual beleiver. And the gifts the Corinthians were to desire for their church were the greater gifts such as prophecy and teaching, not the least of the gifts - tongues.

If we are told that it is the Holy Spirit who sovereignly determines who gets what gift, then it is folly to pray for a particular gift simply because we fancy having it. (Not that today's 'tongues' is the true NT gift of tongues). It is wrong for an ear to want to be an eye:

1 Cor 12:16-20 And if the ear says, “Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired. If they were all one member, where would the body be? But now there are many members, but one body."​

What a twisting of the truth you do weave. The church IS INDIVIDUAL BELIEVERS. And the "Greater gifts" must be understood in the context of the scripture, and not the context of an "ungifted" experience.

The verse you quoted, but never posted, in context;

1CO 12:28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts/charisma of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts/charisma.

The "greater gifts" were the Charisma gifts. The gift of apostles, prophets, teachers are not "charisma" gifts they are "doma" gifts.

EPH 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts/doma unto men.........11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

And you can desire to be an apostle, prophet etc. all you want, to no avail. Those are talent gifts one is born with even as Jeremiah was appointed as a prophet in the womb. They come as callings of God and not cryings of the "ungifted".

So it is up to YOU to become a CHARISMA gifted believer, not God. It will take faith and not fear to receive. And it will also take an "earnest desire". Not a "Well if this gift is real, God then I'll accept it." Too many Christians have sought the higher gifts with such a religious platitude of a request. That is why they are "UNGIFTED" still. When scripture says "Do all have charisma gifts", of course scripture knows the answer is NO. Not because of God, but because of false teaching and lack of faith.

 

[swordsman1]

What a twisting of the truth you do weave. The church IS INDIVIDUAL BELIEVERS. And the "Greater gifts" must be understood in the context of the scripture, and not the context of an "ungifted" experience.

The verse you quoted, but never posted, in context;

1CO 12:28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts/charisma of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts/charisma.

The "greater gifts" were the Charisma gifts. The gift of apostles, prophets, teachers are not "charisma" gifts they are "doma" gifts.

EPH 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts/doma unto men.........11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

And you can desire to be an apostle, prophet etc. all you want, to no avail. Those are talent gifts one is born with even as Jeremiah was appointed as a prophet in the womb. They come as callings of God and not cryings of the "ungifted".

So it is up to YOU to become a CHARISMA gifted believer, not God. It will take faith and not fear to receive. And it will also take an "earnest desire". Not a "Well if this gift is real, God then I'll accept it." Too many Christians have sought the higher gifts with such a religious platitude of a request. That is why they are "UNGIFTED" still. When scripture says "Do all have charisma gifts", of course scripture knows the answer is NO. Not because of God, but because of false teaching and lack of faith.

The gifts the verse is referring to are the gifts listed in the immediately preceding verses - apostles, prophets, teachers, miracles, healing, helps, administration, and tongues. It lists them in order of importance "first apostles, second prophets, third teachers...", with tongues right at the end of the list. Paul then tells the Corinthians to "eagerly desire the greater gifts."