Soterilosity - A person can lose salvation

[Hammster]

How can someone who is not His sheep hear and believe and become His sheep when you have to be a sheep to hear and follow?

 

[Hammster]

That doesn’t mean predestination is true. An atheist can say you can’t prove God’s existence. Does that mean God doesn’t exist? As I’ve already shown there are many more implications of predestination that don’t add up according to the scriptures.

If God’s election is true then...


1. According to John 3:18 why are we judged according to whether or not we believe if we are incapable of believing unless God has chosen us?


2. Wouldn’t that ultimately make God responsible for someone’s unbelief if He has not enabled them to believe?


3. Wouldn’t it be unjust for God to judge someone according to whether or not they believe if He has created them as being incapable of believing and has not enabled them to do so?


4. Why did Jesus and the apostles tell people to believe if they are incapable of believing if they are not chosen by God and are incapable of failing to believe if they are chosen by God?


5. According to 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9 God wants everyone to repent and be saved and none to perish. So why would He only elect certain people to be saved and condemn all others giving them no chance for salvation?


6. According to John 3:16-17 God loved the world so much that He sent His Son so the world might be saved through Him, so why would Our loving God only elect certain people for salvation condemning all others?


7. If God’s election is true then eternal security must also be true because according to the doctrine of God’s elect they cannot be chosen and lose their salvation. So according to John 15:2 how can branches who are in Christ be cut off from the vine which is Christ?


8. Why did Jesus say to His 11 faithful apostles “abide in Me” even explaining to them the consequences of failing to abide which results in the loss of salvation if they are incapable of failing to abide?


9. In Ephesians 2 Paul is addressing children of God as so stated throughout the chapter, so why does he warn these same children of God in Ephesians 5:1-5 of living a sinful way of life that will result in them receiving the wrath of God on the sons of disobedience which results in them having no inheritance in the kingdom of God?


10. Romans 11 Paul warns the Galatians who have been grafted in of being cut off for unbelief even saying they can be grafted back in if they repent. Why would anyone be grafted in if they are not chosen by God and will fall from grace?


11. Romans 6:15-16 How can those who are under grace (God’s elect) sin to the point of becoming slaves to satan resulting in death?


12. If they are incapable of sinning to the point of becoming slaves to satan resulting in death what is the purpose of Paul’s statement? Why would he say this if those who are under grace are incapable of becoming slaves to satan and why would he say this to anyone who is not elected by God if they are condemned because they are incapable of being slaves to God?


13. Why did Jesus say “when the Son of Man is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself”?


14. Why does Paul say in Colossians 1:23 that they must “continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel” in order to be presented Holy and blameless without reproach if they are already reconciled to God and are incapable of failing to continue in the faith?

You ignored me the last time I addressed this. Why should I answer it again?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I said Christ will save His sheep. How is that not answering your questions?

1Can a person who is not elected by God believe and have faith?

2Can a person who is elected by God fail to believe and have faith?

3So who is ultimately responsible for whether or not a person believes and has faith?

Your reply doesn’t answer any of these questions?

 

[BNR32FAN]

You ignored me the last time I addressed this. Why should I answer it again?

Because your answers didn’t make any sense just like your last answer didn’t answer any of the questions I asked. You absolutely will not admit that you can’t answer these questions.

 

[Hammster]

1Can a person who is not elected by God believe and have faith?

2Can a person who is elected by God fail to believe and have faith?

3So who is ultimately responsible for whether or not a person believes and has faith?

Your reply doesn’t answer any of these questions?

I thought it did.

1. They won’t because of their sinful nature.

2. No. Their nature is changed by regeneration.

3. The Godhead

 

[BNR32FAN]

How can someone who is not His sheep hear and believe and become His sheep when you have to be a sheep to hear and follow?

He doesn’t say a person must be His sheep to hear and follow. He said my sheep hear my voice, I know them and they follow.

 

[Hammster]

Because your answers didn’t make any sense just like your last answer didn’t answer any of the questions I asked. You absolutely will not admit that you can’t answer these questions.

Instead of asking again, why not ask for clarification? Do you think my answers will change this time?

And I answered every one, even though they were addressed to another member.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I thought it did.

1. They won’t because of their sinful nature.

2. No. Their nature is changed by regeneration.

3. The Godhead

So then the Godhead is responsible for all who will burn in the lake of fire.

Is it just for God to condemn men to the lake of fire whom He Himself has rendered totally dipraved?

 

[Hammster]

He doesn’t say a person must be His sheep to hear and follow. He said my sheep hear my voice, I know them and they follow.

Right. So how does one become His sheep?

 

[Hammster]

So then the Godhead is responsible for all who will burn in the lake of fire.

Is it just for God to condemn men to the lake of fire whom He Himself has rendered totally dipraved?

This question assumes that everyone deserves a chance to be saved for God to be just. So any answer I give will be understood through the wrong lens.

 

[renniks]

It makes perfect sense, however Calvinism makes no sense which is why you declined to answer my questions. Same thing with John 3:18, it doesn’t make sense that God would judge man according to whether or not he believes if God has not made him capable of believing. Why do you ignore these questions brother? I don’t ask these questions to prove you wrong my friend I honestly don’t. I don’t even care if you don’t answer them. I just want you to ask yourself these questions. Calvinism makes God responsible for everyone who will burn in the lake of fire. Man cannot be held responsible if he has been made incapable of believing by God so God’s judgement upon men who don’t believe would be unjust. They had no choice to believe if predestination is true.

Oh, predestination is true. It just isn't what some people think it is. God predestined that a certain group of people would be glorified.

"Godmade certain promises to Abraham and Israel, and God will keep those promises despite Israel’s stubborn hearts and idolatry. Ultimately, God keeps his word despite the fecklessness and rebellion of humans. His promises are predestination." (Jay Guin)

 

[renniks]

Right. So how does one become His sheep?

By entering through the gate, Jesus , as Jesus has already told us earlier in the chapter.

 

[Hammster]

By entering through the gate, Jesus , as Jesus has already told us earlier in the chapter.

Can you provide that scripture?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Right. So how does one become His sheep?

By hearing the gospel and believing.

 

[BNR32FAN]

This question assumes that everyone deserves a chance to be saved for God to be just. So any answer I give will be understood through the wrong lens.

This idea is based on a misunderstanding of Romans 9 pertaining to the vessels for honor and the vessels for wrath. Calvin’s mistake was that he didn’t understand what Paul said about the vessels made for wrath and how God had endured with them much patience and that He did so so that His glory would be made known to the world. He gave Pharaoh several chances to repent and I’m going to go out on a limb here to say that He most likely foresaw that Pharaoh was never going to repent. So He decided to make an example of him. Pharaoh at that time was one of ,if not, the most powerful man in the world and God made an example of him for his arrogance and disobedience. No one deserves God’s grace but the scriptures clearly say over and over that Jesus was sent to save all men. He offers the Way to all who will choose to believe and follow.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Oh, predestination is true. It just isn't what some people think it is. God predestined that a certain group of people would be glorified.

"Godmade certain promises to Abraham and Israel, and God will keep those promises despite Israel’s stubborn hearts and idolatry. Ultimately, God keeps his word despite the fecklessness and rebellion of humans. His promises are predestination." (Jay Guin)

But God never promised eternal life in heaven to Abraham. God’s promise on the old covenant was prosperity in this world, not eternal life in heaven.

 

[renniks]

Can you provide that scripture?

John 10:7
John10:8
John 10:9

 

[Hammster]

By hearing the gospel and believing.

How can someone who is not His sheep hear and believe and become His sheep when you have to be a sheep to hear and follow?

 

[Hammster]

This idea is based on a misunderstanding of Romans 9 pertaining to the vessels for honor and the vessels for wrath. Calvin’s mistake was that he didn’t understand what Paul said about the vessels made for wrath and how God had endured with them much patience and that He did so so that His glory would be made known to the world. He gave Pharaoh several chances to repent and I’m going to go out on a limb here to say that He most likely foresaw that Pharaoh was never going to repent. So He decided to make an example of him. Pharaoh at that time was one of ,if not, the most powerful man in the world and God made an example of him for his arrogance and disobedience. No one deserves God’s grace but the scriptures clearly say over and over that Jesus was sent to save all men. He offers the Way to all who will choose to believe and follow.

Mkay.

 

[Hammster]

John 10:7
John10:8
John 10:9

So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
— John 10:7-9

High one says we become His sheep?