Soterilosity - A person can lose salvation

[BNR32FAN]

It's certainly possible that people who don't abide were never sheep to begin with. That's the Reformed viewpoint

That’s the problem with the reformed viewpoint is they’re saying a person who doesn’t abide (remain, stay, continue) was never in Christ or a sheep to begin with. But that doesn’t make sense because the definition of the word ménō G3306 means to remain, stay, or continue. A person cannot fail to remain, stay, or continue as stated in John 15:6 if they were never in Christ to begin with. You can’t remain or stay somewhere you’ve never been and you can’t continue something you haven’t begun. Not to mention there’s still the statement made directly to His 11 faithful apostles “Abide in Me”.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I do believe that you can't will yourself to have faith.

He who seeks will find and to him who knocks the door will be opened.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You said "Predestination cannot work without eternal security." I noted that predestination would work as long as falling away is also not your choice.

However John didn't say that. As I've said several times, John said only sheep can hear his voice, and people can fall away. He didn't try to explain the tension between them.

He also didn't use terms like "capable of not abiding." We don't know what how he thought it happened. It's certainly possible that people who don't abide were never sheep to begin with. That's the Reformed viewpoint. It's possible that one can be a sheep temporarily. Perhaps it's solely by God's grace that you become a sheep, but you have to maintain your status. That's close to the modern Lutheran position.

Personally I'm skeptical of the whole attempt to explain a process that everyone is assumed to follow. I think people are different and their experiences with God are different. I do believe that you can't will yourself to have faith. As to falling away, I'm not sure people precisely choose that either. Some find unacceptable issues with faith and can no longer believe. It's not something they choose. But more commonly, people seem to lose faith because they fail to do things to act on it and maintain it, and it slowly dies. Again they don't precisely choose to not believe, although it's partly due to their own inaction that they do. That's what the various NT warnings are about. I don't think John was trying to explain all of the possibilities for how one's faith might grow or be lost.

But all of this goes well beyond what John (or other NT writers) actually say.

This is, of course, separate from the issue of salvation. There are good reasons from Jesus' teaching to think that God never gives up on his sheep, even when they get lost. But that is closely connected with what you think the requirements are for salvation, and how many people you think are saved. I'm not quite a universalist, but I'm close. I don't think God gives up easily.

I think God being omniscient won’t give up on those whom He has foreseen will repent but I think He will on those who He has foreseen that won’t repent. I can’t say this is directly biblical but possibly indirectly.

 

[BNR32FAN]

They obviously were capable of hearing his voice. As I understand it, the traditional Reformed answer is that people who fall away weren't sheep to begin with, didn't truly hear and respond to Jesus' voice, but only gave the appearance of doing so.

I think this is an unnatural understanding of John's words. I think people actually do become real Christians, and thus have heard Christ's voice, and then for one reason or another fall away. I think that's the most natural reading of John -- though the Reformed reading is not logically impossible.

I don't believe the NT gives a real explanation for how this happens, nor is it clear what the limits are to God acceptance. The NT is clear on how to follow Jesus, but not so clear on just what happens when you don't, or when you start out to and fail. I personally think that God is very slow to abandon his one-time sheep or anyone else, but I'm not prepared to state as doctrine that once you're a follower, you retain that status no matter how you change.

The problem is they make the claim that someone wasn’t really a believer but they have no way of truly knowing. I believed in eternal security and defended it passionately. It’s a long story but after much study on the scriptures, early church writings, the Greek definitions, and even some church history, not to mention a ton of prayers, I believe I have a much more comprehensive understanding of the scriptures now than I did before. I was forced to re-examine my beliefs and the verses I believed supported eternal security. I found out that they can be interpreted without contradicting conditional salvation and the scriptures line up so much more harmonious than when I believed reformed theology. I actually have a tendency to lean towards the Orthodox teachings.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That’s the problem with the reformed viewpoint is they’re saying a person who doesn’t abide (remain, stay, continue) was never in Christ or a sheep to begin with. But that doesn’t make sense because the definition of the word ménō G3306 means to remain, stay, or continue. A person cannot fail to remain, stay, or continue as stated in John 15:6 if they were never in Christ to begin with. You can’t remain or stay somewhere you’ve never been and you can’t continue something you haven’t begun. Not to mention there’s still the statement made directly to His 11 faithful apostles “Abide in Me”.

What are your thoughts on John 15:2? The Father cuts off every branch In Christ that doesn’t bear fruit. Have you noticed most bible versions use the term lifts up or takes away? It concerns me that translators appear to be ignoring the context in that the branch is attached to the vine. The definitions I find for the Greek word airo say to to take off or away what is attached to anything or to remove. I’m curious why so many translations ignore this definition.

 

[hedrick]

What are your thoughts on John 15:2? The Father cuts off every branch In Christ that doesn’t bear fruit. Have you noticed most bible versions use the term lifts up or takes away? It concerns me that translators appear to be ignoring the context in that the branch is attached to the vine. The definitions I find for the Greek word airo say to to take off or away what is attached to anything or to remove. I’m curious why so many translations ignore this definition.

I think this verse is at least moderately consistent with Jesus' teaching in the Synoptics. In his teaching, judgment is first a matter of people not being useful to others, not so much the kinds of sins many Christians think of as the basis for judgment. Compare 15:2 with 15:6. The branches that are don't bear fruit and are removed are probably those didn't abide with Jesus. While it's not crystal clear, I understand 15:6 as referring to now and 15:2 to judgement.

On the wording, Brown's comment is "Literally “he was cast out like a branch and he withered.”" He comments that the wording is awkward, and allows several different grammatical possibilities. The overall meaning is clear, but difference in translations may reflect a feature of the original.

Here's the NRSV:

"He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit. "

 

[BNR32FAN]

I think this verse is at least moderately consistent with Jesus' teaching in the Synoptics. In his teaching, judgment is first a matter of people not being useful to others, not so much the kinds of sins many Christians think of as the basis for judgment. Compare 15:2 with 15:6. The branches that are don't bear fruit and are removed are probably those didn't abide with Jesus. While it's not crystal clear, I understand 15:6 as referring to now and 15:2 to judgement.

On the wording, Brown's comment is "Literally “he was cast out like a branch and he withered.”" He comments that the wording is awkward, and allows several different grammatical possibilities. The overall meaning is clear, but difference in translations may reflect a feature of the original.

Here's the NRSV:

"He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit. "

That’s interesting that you associate John 15:2 with judgement and John 15:6 with a kind of temporal punishment. I always thought they were both now. The cast away to wither part is definitely now but the cast in the fire part is hard to determine. Thanks for your insight.

 

[hedrick]

That’s interesting that you associate John 15:2 with judgement and John 15:6 with a kind of temporal punishment. I always thought they were both now. The cast away to wither part is definitely now but the cast in the fire part is hard to determine. Thanks for your insight.

I may have been misleading. 6 actually talks about both. Those who don't abide are removed and thrown into the fire. 2 refers to removing branches that bear no fruit.

It seems reasonable to connect them, and say that the branches that bear no fruit and are thrown away (2) are those that don't abide and are removed and thrown into the fire (6). Otherwise we have a very perplexing set of multiple judgements. The only question is whether removal and destruction are somehow intended to be in this life. I think at the judgement is more likely, at least for the fire. I guess people who don't abide could be removed from Christ's vine immediately when they fall away but not thrown into the first until later. That isn't relevant to point we were talking about though.

 

[St. Helens]

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[sdowney717]

God through Christ created all things including unsaved souls.
God the Father is the vinedresser, He places us in Christ as fruit bearers, the fruit we bear to God, not man, we are accountable only to God, but men do benefit from good fruits too..
That fruits would be the fruits of His Holy Spirit in out life, those fruits demonstrate we belong to Him. No fruit, no life, anyone who does not abide in Christ is dead as Christ is the resurrection and the Life.
So of course they will be removed, meaning they will not have eternal life. But its not like they had it and lost it, because as I said in the beginning God through Christ made everything that exists, and God himself the vinedresser manages the fruitful branches on Christ. God is the one who chooses you to bear fruit and be glorified together with Him.

Without Him (Christ) nothing was made that was made, but it wont abide with Him as from the foundation of the world if the vinedresser does not wish it so.

Gods works as the vinedresser for Christ were finished from the foundation of this world.
Hebrews 4:3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: “So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ” although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

 

[Si_monfaith]

I'm not avoiding anything... I just think your premise is silly. And of course penal substitution is only one of many theories of atonement. Christus Victor has a lot of merit.

If God was never angry over us, why does Romans 4:15 say God's wrath came through the law? Why did God curse Adam & Eve with death for acquiring the knowledge of good & evil?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Soterilosity - A person can lose salvation

According to scripture, persons can, indeed, lose salvation and eternal life. As two examples, for a witness:

OT - King Saul
NT - Ananias and Sapphira

neither example shows the claim that salvation can be lost.

First, king Saul. Yes, he was a miserable king. He did not follow God's commands.

However, we know he joined Samuel after death because of what Samuel told him during the only actual real seance in human history, where a person actually came back from the dead.

1 Sam 28-
18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today.
19 The LORD will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.”

The OSNAS types will argue that Samuel only meant that Saul would join Samuel in the grave. However, that is just silly, since Samuel was the Lord's prophet and didn't think like unbelievers, but rather, like the believer he was. He came back from Paradise, or Abraham's bosom. And that is exactly where Saul went after he died the next day.

Or the argument that Samuel only meant that Saul would go to sheol, where all souls went after death. We know from Jesus' accounting of a poor man Lazarus and a rich man that sheol separated believers from unbelievers. There was Paradise, where Lazarus went, and Torments, where the rich man went. And they were certainly NOT together, since a deep chasm divided them.

So Samuel was telling Saul that he would join him in Paradise, proof that Saul didn't lose his salvation.

Now, on to Ananias and Sapphira. What happened to them was physical death, a discipline for lying to the Holy Spirit.

We know that physical death is included in God's discipline of His children from 1 Cor 11:30 - That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep (euphemism for physical death).

The sanctuary services of God teach the same in Leviticus 16 & 23.

If this interpretation were true, then Jesus was contradicting the OT and the Law. How can that be possible?

Jesus taught that those who believe in Him HAVE (as in current possession of eternal life) in John 5:24 and 6:47. Then, in John 10:28, Jesus said plainly that those He gives eternal life (that would be believers) SHALL NEVER PERISH. I put that in caps, bold and color for emphasis.

So, take your pick. Either Jesus is right and all interpretations that lead to loss of salvation are wrong, or Jesus is wrong.

God's own character, of Love, demonstrates that persons can indeed turn from God as they choose, using the choice given them by God.

Yes, just like Saul and A & S. Yet, neither lost their salvation.

Some have attempted to "wrest" (2 Pet. 3:16), the text of John 10:28 by misusing the word, "pluck" (vs 28; G726), for it means by 'force', see Matthew 13:19; John 10:12, "catcheth" (as to steal by force).

All this is irrelevant. The clear point is that once given the gift of eternal life, which is by faith (John 5:24, 6:47) the recipient of that gift SHALL NEVER PERISH.

To force out of the hand is not the same as leaving the hand of one's own will/choice. That is two things, not one and the same thing.

This is a specious argument. The words "no one" includes the meaning of "no person". Believers are persons, so Jesus was including EVEN the believer him/herself as who can NOT remove them from God's hand.

Likewise, Adam in the garden chose freely, and no one forced him to eat.

Free will doesn't lead to the conclusion that salvation can be lost.

If that were true, then please provide at least one VERY CLEAR AND PLAIN verse that tells us that a believer can get rid of their salvation.