Something to think about.

[Jerry Smith]

wildernesse,

Great post!!

 

[Jerry Smith]

CelandineBaggins, and DARRIONS.....

As promised, I have posted the new thread on "What is evolution". I hope that Rufus will come behind me and correct any mistakes I made & that you will all bear with me if I wasn't clear or didn't go into enough depth. It is hard to know where to start (and even harder to know where to finish) when discussing what evolution is. There are several threads here that touch (very lightly) on the evidence for evolution. After you have seen what evolution is, maybe you will want to look at them to see what the evidence is... Or you may decide to wait a little bit longer for that. (I sure wouldn't blame you - summer break is a difficult time to be doing more school work). You need not sign on right now - its better really that you didn't. The best thing is to try to be aware of the theory and what it means, and keep an open mind until you are convinced one way or the other.

The new thread is here:
http://www.christianforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16348

Thanks for listening, to both of you!

 

[RufusAtticus]

Hi Celandine,

What about this, creation lasted six days. Man was created on the sixth day, on the same day as animals. Animals include apes. Now I know that to God a thousand years is like a day and a day is like a thousand years, but in our time perspective, how do you push a million or so years into the time between when God created monkeys and when God created Man?

By not considering Genesis to be a literal recipe of how God created.

Genesis is how the ancient Hebrews understood creation. They were not sophisticated enough to deal with scientific answers as we are. (Remember that it has taken countless generations for us to amass this knowledge.) Can you imagine trying to explain how we are related to chimpanzees to people who have no clue what a chimpanzee is?

The Hebrews understood that God was the creator, they just couldn’t explain it. So from their own experiences, they crafted their own explanation. Although Genesis is not historically or scientifically accurate, you can determine that its message is that God is responsible. Do you think that it matters whether it took Him six days or 4 billion years, as long as you feel that He did it?

Why do you think God didn't make us humans from the start? Why do you think he would confuse us with complex evolution.

I don’t know. That is definitely a question for theologians to ponder. In reality, God hasn’t confused us anymore with evolution than he has with static electricity. I don’t know why God would have waited, the evidence just indicates the He did.

Ashibaka,

Please lay off of Darrions. She doesn't need you critizing her or her faith right now.

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

By this point Celandine must be quite confused. On the one hand we have individuals trying to define evolutionary theory, and on the other we have individuals equating evolution with athiesm deceit and evil.
Celandine, you should be commended for taking the time to read all these posts. Although your mind is made up, you still appear to have an open mind.

Jerry has posted an extensive article on what evolution is, read that and you will get a good idea about what issues evolutionary theory addresses.

How about what evoltution isn't (I am sure there are many other points that can be added).

Evolution is not religion.
Evolution is not a plot to turn people away from God.
Evolution is not an agenda.
Evolution is accepted by people of all religions around the world (including christian), it is not an athiest creation.
Evolution does not conflict with religion, nor does it try to replace it.
Evolution does not speak to why we are here, the meaning of life or any greater purposes.
Evolution does not place a value on life, nor does it devalue life.
Evolution does not devalue humanity.



The shape of the earth as described in the bible has been brough up in this forum several times. Some passages indicate a flat earth, some may indicate a sphere. No surpise here, since the bible was written over several centuries by many people. Some of the original authors may have beleived in a flat earth and some in a round earth. Nevertheless, christians in the middle ages generally accepted a flat earth that stood at the center of a small universe. When it was demonstrated that the earth is not flat, nor is it in the center of the universe, and that the universe is a huge place, there was upheaval. Yet people did not loose thier faith as some had feared. Surely you accept that the earth is a tiny dot in a vast cosmos. If we put you in a time machine back to the 1500's and you expressed this view you would have been accused of heresy. Does accepting the earth's place in the universe make you a heretic today? Do you feel that humanity is insignificant just because you realize the earth is not in the center of a small universe? Many christians have reconciled evolution with thier faith, and remain faithfull.


So Celandine, remember this pronouncement made by the learned elders of Galileo's day who REFUSED to even look through his telesope "The moons of Jupiter are invisible to the naked eye, and are therefore useless, and therefore do not exist"

Why did they say that? Because they were scared of losing thier faith. Now take a look at jupiter through binoculars or a telescope and you will see that the moons of jupiter are very real, and that your faith remains the same.

Don't let fear smother your desire to learn.

 

[Jerry Smith]

Late Cretaceous:

 

[CJF]

I would like to apologize to all of you on this thread. I was pushy, and Celandine was right. I was being rude. I truly apologize. I was getting frustraited, and I was stressed. (Probly because I hadn't eaten anything.) But now I am cooled off, and hope to stay that way. Again, I am sorry.

 

[seebs]

It's okay. We all have bad days. (Some of us also have good days, although I don't think I remember many of mine.)

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Project 86

2. God told us how life was started. Like it or not if you believe in evolution you do call God a liar. It's as plain as that and don't try to talk your way around it by calling it "just a story" or just some fancy poetic way of describing how God started it all. Doesn't work that way.

Good post. It continues to amaze me how many people would rather tremble at man's word than at God's word. The Bible repeatedly references Genesis as a factual account, not allegory. So you simply cannot write it off as allegory without concluding that God lies or the Bible is unreliable (and if it is unreliable, then why do any of you have faith in Christ?)

Hebrews 11:

4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

If Abel never existed, then how can he be dead?

5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "and was not found, because God had taken him";[1] for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
7By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
(2) 8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child[2] when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude--innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore.

Would it be reasonable to believe that the author of Hebrews referred to Abel as if he's allegorically dead, but then continue the message with a seamless segue into historical figures?

Then there's Romans 5, and let's not forget that Luke includes the mythical Adam in his geneology of Christ.

Now there's a neat trick. You think finding out you're adopted is a shock, what would you think if you found out your biological father was only allegory?

I could go on, but I know I'm wasting my time.

 

[EspressoDuck]

Celandine-I do beleive I owe you an apology. It's just hard to know, that you do something for a friend and they hate for it. I mean, the only reason I even came onto the subject was to help you out. Obviously you don't want my help. So I'll back off.

Apology accepted. I suppose I got a little mad. The thing is, I didn't ask you to come help me. If I believed I needed your help, I would have asked. But you had your opinions you wanted to express too. You just got caught up in the excitement of expressing what you and I believe, and it's understandable to be mad. I get mad all the time. So, let's kiss and make up. Actually, let's just settle for a hug.

 

[CJF]

Okay. Hubere yubou gubo!

 

[Jerry Smith]

<snip>

 

[EspressoDuck]

Originally posted by DARRIONS
Okay. Hubere yubou gubo!

Thadagank youdagoo vedegereedegee muduguch!

 

[Jerry Smith]

Originally posted by npetreley

Good post. It continues to amaze me how many people would rather tremble at man's word than at God's word.

Forgetting for a moment that your words are man's word, not God's word....

The Bible repeatedly references Genesis as a factual account, not allegory. So you simply cannot write it off as allegory without concluding that God lies or the Bible is unreliable (and if it is unreliable, then why do any of you have faith in Christ?)

The Bible repeatedly references the pentateuch as being authored by Moses, but obviously it doesn't require that every verse of it is, considering his obituary is found there.

If Abel never existed, then how can he be dead?

You are the one who jumped to the conclusion that if Genesis 1-2 are not literal accounts of creation that Abel must not have existed... don't expect others to share your fallacious assumptions.

Would it be reasonable to believe that the author of Hebrews referred to Abel as if he's allegorically dead, but then continue the message with a seamless segue into historical figures?

It wouldn't do to assume that the Hebrews passage should be read literally and that Abel was an allegorical figure. You are right about that. Doesn't mean anything in the context of this discussion though.

Then there's Romans 5, and let's not forget that Luke includes the mythical Adam in his geneology of Christ.

You are the only one that has concluded that Adam must be "mythical" in order for evolution and the Bible to be reconciled.

Now there's a neat trick. You think finding out you're adopted is a shock, what would you think if you found out your biological father was only allegory?

Your point?

I could go on, but I know I'm wasting my time.

.. and ours...

 

[seebs]

I have often suspected that Adam and Eve were the first of the humanoid creatures to be given souls.